Dark Force Entertainment Discussion Thread

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by bergman864

If you have a terrible TV that can't properly tonemap it's not the fault of HDR.

Don't use HDR as an excuse for shoddy work. Thriller, Henry: Portrait of Serial Killer (a dour looking film), The Hills Have Eyes and The Texas Chain Saw Massacre use HDR quite well to enhance the visuals and improve the grain and shadow areas.

Casablanca and the Universal Classic Monsters UHDs have noticeable gains with HDR over their 1080p counterparts.

So you consider the LG C2 a terrible TV? There is a reason that Dolby Vision looks so much better on that TV than HDR10, and there is also a reason why people use the Panasonic HDR optimizer on their 4K players with that TV and get improved results. It's because most consumer implementations of tonemapping sucks. This is well known in the industry and is a large reason why DNR/grain management/whatever you want to call it is employed on 4K HDR releases. It is used to avoid the end user from having a bad experience, as its a required part of the HDR display process. The only displays I've seen with good native tonemapping are the flagship Samsungs.

Also, there can be a large difference between different types of film, condition of film, etc. There is disagreement in the industry on how to handle these issues depending on which professional is doing the work, and doing a 4K SDR is a valid solution if DNR is not desirable.

[bergman864]

Originally Posted by Ruined

So you consider the LG C2 a terrible TV? There is a reason that Dolby Vision looks so much better on that TV than HDR10, and there is also a reason why people use the Panasonic HDR optimizer on their 4K players with that TV and get improved results. It's because most consumer implementations of tonemapping sucks. This is well known in the industry and is a large reason why DNR/grain management/whatever you want to call it is employed on 4K HDR releases. It is used to avoid the end user from having a bad experience, as its a required part of the HDR display process. The only displays I've seen with good native tonemapping are the flagship Samsungs.

Also, there can be a large difference between different types of film, condition of film, etc. There is disagreement in the industry on how to handle these issues depending on which professional is doing the work, and doing a 4K SDR is a valid solution if DNR is not desirable.

I don't know anything about that TV, but I do know that most viewers couldn't properly calibrate a TV with a gun to their head.

And I'm pretty sure DNR isn't being used to help users properly display HDR on their TVs, otherwise every company in the world would be using it. No, it happens because companies (major studios) try to minimize grain to appease viewers who think 4K means "crystal clear picture". It has nothing to do with tonemapping.

And I haven't heard any stories about Arrow or VS using DNR and they continue to produce fantastic results.

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by bergman864

I don't know anything about that TV, but I do know that most viewers couldn't properly calibrate a TV with a gun to their head.

And I'm pretty sure DNR isn't being used to help users properly display HDR on their TVs, otherwise every company in the world would be using it. No, it happens because companies (major studios) try to minimize grain to appease viewers who think 4K means "crystal clear picture". It has nothing to do with tonemapping.

It is all part of the same thing - HDR process exacerbates grain/noise, period. Well known fact, not debated anywhere in the industry I am aware of, common knowledge.

So, the choice is either to add DNR, or put out a release that studios believe at least some of their audience will perceive as a "snowstorm" due to the grain amplification.

And I haven't heard any stories about Arrow or VS using DNR and they continue to produce fantastic results.

Again, Arrow and VS don't own a content library to my knowledge, so they can cherry pick their 4K licenses for ones that will produce the best 4K HDR results. Code Red actually did own a small content library that they monetized, and the source quality ranges from horrendous to pretty good; DF may now own this library, I don't know?

Also, despite your stating this, I have a friend who is an engineer in the tech field and he thought the Arrow 4K HDR release of Dune looked horrible because it was so "noisy." He actually liked the Blu-ray better than the 4K. So your personal opinion on how 4K looks is not necessarily shared by everyone or even most people, thus mastering professionals have differing ideas on how to best present content in HDR (or not present it in HDR at all, as in this case) so that most will find it appealing.

[bergman864]

Originally Posted by Ruined

It is all part of the same thing - HDR process exacerbates grain/noise, period. Well known fact, not debated anywhere in the industry I am aware of, common knowledge.

So, the choice is either to add DNR, or put out a release that studios believe at least some of their audience will perceive as a "snowstorm" due to the grain amplification.



Again, Arrow and VS don't own a content library to my knowledge, so they can cherry pick their 4K licenses for ones that will produce the best 4K HDR results. Code Red actually did own a small content library that they monetized, and the source quality ranges from horrendous to pretty good; DF may now own this library, I don't know?

Also, despite your stating this, I have a friend who is an engineer in the tech field and he thought the Arrow 4K HDR release of Dune looked horrible because it was so "noisy." He actually liked the Blu-ray better than the 4K. So your personal opinion on how 4K looks is not necessarily shared by everyone or even most people, thus mastering professionals have differing ideas on how to best present content in HDR (or not present it in HDR at all, as in this case) so that most will find it appealing.

Trying to use the Appeal to Authority fallacy isn't going to fly. Him liking the blu-ray better is no more concrete evidence than me saying I have a music engineer friend who likes 5.1 tracks over Dolby Atmos because they have more distortion.

And I already mentioned that companies use DNR to appease their customers that think 4K discs should be crystal clear. It has nothing to do with its benefits to the tonemapping of the image.

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by bergman864

Trying to use the Appeal to Authority fallacy isn't going to fly. Him liking the blu-ray better is no more concrete evidence than me saying I have a music engineer friend who likes 5.1 tracks over Dolby Atmos because they have more distortion.

And I already mentioned that companies use DNR to appease their customers that think 4K discs should be crystal clear. It has nothing to do with its benefits to the tonemapping of the image.

I already provided scientific evidence so I don't need any addt'l argument beyond that. You have provided nothing other than your own words . Case closed.

[bergman864]

Originally Posted by Ruined

I already provided scientific evidence so I don't need any addt'l argument beyond that. You have provided nothing other than your own words . Case closed.

What was your point again? That this specific movie, Final Exam wouldn't benefit of HDR because it has an abundance of grain and noise but you have no explanation why films actually shot in 16mm don't have these problems and why other inexpensively shot films of the same era don't suffer the same issues.

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by bergman864

What was your point again? That this specific movie, Final Exam wouldn't benefit of HDR because it has an abundance of grain and noise but you have no explanation why films actually shot in 16mm don't have these problems and why other inexpensively shot films of the same era don't suffer the same issues.

No, that mastering professionals in the industry differ in opinion in how to handle films with excessive grain and noise, and that electing not to use HDR is a valid strategy in said case. Other options could include employing HDR+DNR or just releasing it in HDR with the amplified noise. Depending who does the mastering will yield different decisions.

[bergman864]

Originally Posted by Ruined

No, that mastering professionals in the industry differ in opinion in how to handle films with excessive grain and noise, and that electing not to use HDR is a valid strategy in said case. Other options could include employing HDR+DNR or just releasing it in HDR with the amplified noise. Depending who does the mastering will yield different decisions.

In other words, this could've been released with HDR and either Dave chose a bad mastering house, or he got some bad advice.

Either way you look at it, this could've (and should've) had HDR.

[locomotive]

Is there another 4k coming up so i can combine it with final exam.
To get more out of the shipping costs.

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by bergman864

In other words, this could've been released with HDR and either Dave chose a bad mastering house, or he got some bad advice.

Either way you look at it, this could've (and should've) had HDR.

It's okay to come to that conclusion, my point is just that:
1. Its not necessarily an error, or done "wrong."
2. Its not worth discounting the release over; at least from the photos shown so far it appears to have far superior grain rendition and improved color vs the Shout release - assuming said photos are accurate as they weren't caps.

Is there another 4k coming up so i can combine it with final exam.
To get more out of the shipping costs.

Scream, Dead Pit, and Final Exam are only 4Ks

If you got everything on the store now Alien Thunder on Blu-ray will probably be in the next drop, I'm waiting for that one as well before I order to save on shipping.

[jcs913]

Hey Dave...I mean Ruined, we get it. Let's move on. The release will not have an HDR pass on it, so the topic is now moot. Nothing to compare the 4K SDR too, so let's forget it. Dead Pit's HDR was very subtle, but shined when used. Too bad Exam won't have that chance. Hopefully people will have their discs soon and we can get a 'real world' discussion of the disc.

[Member-222782]

Originally Posted by jcs913

Hey Dave...I mean Ruined, we get it. Let's move on. The release will not have an HDR pass on it, so the topic is now moot. Nothing to compare the 4K SDR too, so let's forget it. Dead Pit's HDR was very subtle, but shined when used. Too bad Exam won't have that chance. Hopefully people will have their discs soon and we can get a 'real world' discussion of the disc.

Nah, I love these back and forth discussions between self-appointed technical gurus. Some of these guys genuinely sound like they know what they're talking about so let's hear them out

[WillieMLF]

Originally Posted by Cinema84

Nah, I love these back and forth discussions between self-appointed technical gurus. Some of these guys genuinely sound like they know what they're talking about so let's hear them out

I do thinks it's a valid discussion. Not every movie needs HDR, and not every title needs to be in 4K.

[Walter Kafka]

I think Dark Force is just following the Disney model of generating controversy. Final Exam is guaranteed to go viral with outrage. I expect Grio, TheRoot, and HuffPost to weigh in.

[DaylightsEnd]

Originally Posted by Walter Kafka

I think Dark Force is just following the Disney model of generating controversy. Final Exam is guaranteed to go viral with outrage

Unlikely. A very poor sales plan for the 32 copies they had pressed, which would then be gone in 11 minutes. That first slipcover HAD to be a marketing ruse, though….

I’m ordering one of those 32 copies, so I can poke fun and fan the toasty flames of sales publicity.

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by DaylightsEnd

Unlikely. A very poor sales plan for the 32 copies they had pressed, which would then be gone in 11 minutes. That first slipcover HAD to be a marketing ruse, though….

I’m ordering one of those 32 copies, so I can poke fun and fan the toasty flames of sales publicity.

One lucky buyer is going to get the ultra rare, only one made slipcover I attached pic of. Demon Dave on the left?

[Kakihara]

Originally Posted by jcs913

Hey Dave...I mean Ruined, we get it. Let's move on. The release will not have an HDR pass on it, so the topic is now moot. Nothing to compare the 4K SDR too, so let's forget it. Dead Pit's HDR was very subtle, but shined when used. Too bad Exam won't have that chance. Hopefully people will have their discs soon and we can get a 'real world' discussion of the disc.

Let me be the lone dissenter on Dead Pit 4K. I found it disappointing as several scenes came out looking more drab with colors toned down (especially green and blue) compared to the BD. I provided screenshots with examples of this a few weeks ago but it seems like I'm the only one who took issue with it.

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by Kakihara

Let me be the lone dissenter on Dead Pit 4K. I found it disappointing as several scenes came out looking more drab with colors toned down (especially green and blue) compared to the BD. I provided screenshots with examples of this a few weeks ago but it seems like I'm the only one who took issue with it.

You think people actually watch the Blu-rays they buy?

On a side note, I liked the 4K HDR version of Dead Pit better, I did A/B compare them also.

[Nosferatu31]

Originally Posted by Kakihara

Let me be the lone dissenter on Dead Pit 4K. I found it disappointing as several scenes came out looking more drab with colors toned down (especially green and blue) compared to the BD. I provided screenshots with examples of this a few weeks ago but it seems like I'm the only one who took issue with it.

You're not alone on this my friend. I feel the same way and much prefer the Blu over the 4K.

[Member-222782]

My first impressions of the PQ on Dead Pit were "this doesn't look too much like 4K". Granted, I didn't watch the whole disc, just skipped around, but I think I'm going to wait for feedback on these upgrades before purchasing going forward. Felt the same way about Scream.