Star Wars Wars the UOT Strikes Back and OTHER PEZ dispensers

[Mavrick]

Originally Posted by P@t_Mtl

Coming soon by the Michael Moore OF Documentary School, where we show you how to make a documentary speaking of only one side and pretend the other side is pure evil

It does amaze me how fanatical people can get about things. Makes me feel like this!

[Chordata]

Originally Posted by ObiTrentKenobi

which episode have you seen the most? I've seen ROTJ at least twice as much as any other episode.

That's probably the case for me, too, since I watched it the most as a kid. Nowadays, though, it's the one I watch the least. Recently, the ones I watch the most are TPM and ANH. Next is a toss-up between AOTC and ESB. I probably watch ROTS more than ROTJ, but less than the others.

[whaleman]

What do you guys think is the WORST order to watch the saga? I say:
2-5-1-6-4-3

[Falaskan]

half of 6, than half of 2, then half of 5, than half of 4, than half of 3, then all of 1.

[phatrat1982]

nevermind.

[Cowboy]

Originally Posted by adywan

A lot of the problems with the SE Jabba scene is the repeated dialogue. When the scene was scrapped they moved a lot of the dialogue between Jabba and han and placed it in the Han Greedo scene. Here's how the Greedo confrontation was originally edited:
http://youtu.be/dooAg-5lXx4?t=5m53s
And here is the original "human" Jabba scene:
http://youtu.be/itWq71Y5-B4
Changing Greedo's dialogue back to the original to remove the repetitiveness would have helped. But Han stepping on Jabbas tail is what ruins this scene for me. If they couldn't figure out a way to have Han walking behind jabba without creating this out of character mess, then they should have just scrapped it. Would Jabba really have allowed han to get away with such an act of disrespect? No. he would have had him killed on the spot. So, not only did they change Han's "shoot first" style character but they also changed Jabba's.

Great post! In the SE we get two characater changes in one film.

[Monolithium]

Originally Posted by Merlinpants

aren't all these 'watch in this sequence' posts irrelevant?

The Star Wars Saga is the story of Darth Vader, his rise, his fall, his redemeption. Watching them in the order they are titled (i.e. 1-6) is the only way you can appreciate this journey and feel any empathy towards the main protaginist.

Actually Anakin is only the "main protagonist" for two of the films.

Episode I: Qui-Gon (or no one if you're Mr. Plinkett)
Episode II-III: Anakin
Episodes IV-VI: Luke

[phatrat1982]

A lot of the problems with the SE Jabba scene is the repeated dialogue. When the scene was scrapped they moved a lot of the dialogue between Jabba and han and placed it in the Han Greedo scene. Here's how the Greedo confrontation was originally edited:
http://youtu.be/dooAg-5lXx4?t=5m53s
And here is the original "human" Jabba scene:
http://youtu.be/itWq71Y5-B4
Changing Greedo's dialogue back to the original to remove the repetitiveness would have helped. But Han stepping on Jabbas tail is what ruins this scene for me. If they couldn't figure out a way to have Han walking behind jabba without creating this out of character mess, then they should have just scrapped it. Would Jabba really have allowed han to get away with such an act of disrespect? No. he would have had him killed on the spot. So, not only did they change Han's "shoot first" style character but they also changed Jabba's.
Great post! In the SE we get two characater changes in one film.

Ok so I am trying to figure this out and now I am even more confused. The reason people do not like Greedo shooting at Han is because it deminishes he bad assness in their mind? But the same people have a problem with Han stepping on Jabbas tail and getting away with it because it makes him look too bad ass?

I never had a problem with accepting that prior to the events of A New Hope that Han and Jabba were on pretty equal footing, and after Han not only dropped his cargo because of an Imperial boarding incident, but his defection to the Rebellion, which is the enemy to Jabba. I always just assumed that during A New Hope Jabba and Han were still friends to some degree, although based on the threat Jabba leaves Han with it makes sense why in latter films he is running for his life, he not only received a HUGE sum of money from the Rebellion for rescuing the princess, which he could have paid Jabba with, he also defected to the Rebellion and kept the money instead of paying his debts, so it to me does not look at all like Han stepped on Jabbas tail and got away with anything, hell Jabba was so fed up with Han when he finally caught up with him he had all he could take.

Does any of that make sense?

[MadCapsule]

Originally Posted by phatrat1982

Ok so I am trying to figure this out and now I am even more confused. The reason people do not like Greedo shooting at Han is because it deminishes he bad assness in their mind? But the same people have a problem with Han stepping on Jabbas tail and getting away with it because it makes him look too bad ass?

I can't speak for anyone else on this matter, but this is not why I disagree with the Greedo shooting or Han stepping on Jabba's tail.

For me it's about the story arch of Han Solo. If he is the only one to shoot, then Han can be compared to a wild west gunslinger who shot Greedo so Greedo doesn't shoot him first. This gives Han a feeling of being on the fringes of the law, more smuggler like. With Greedo shooting at the same time then it changes the situation to be more of a self defense move. If Han is the only one to shoot then he goes from being a lawless, self-interested scoundrel and ends up helping someone other than himself and ultimately risks his own neck on a much grander scale by helping the rebellion destory the death star. Having Greedo shoot as well makes Han have less of a change in personality, not to mention the effects are downright horrible.

If Han steps on Jabba's tail then it shows that Jabba is nowhere near as ruthless as he is made out to be by the other characters in Return of the Jedi. Why be afraid of a deathmark from Jabba if you can step on his tail and he does nothing to you? Would the Godfather ignore it if you kicked him in the leg, how about Tony Montana? It cheapens the character of Jabba. What was the point of going through an elaborate plan to rescue Han in Jedi if Jabba is actually a push over?

[Cowboy]

Originally Posted by phatrat1982

Ok so I am trying to figure this out and now I am even more confused. The reason people do not like Greedo shooting at Han is because it deminishes he bad assness in their mind? But the same people have a problem with Han stepping on Jabbas tail and getting away with it because it makes him look too bad ass?

I never had a problem with accepting that prior to the events of A New Hope that Han and Jabba were on pretty equal footing, and after Han not only dropped his cargo because of an Imperial boarding incident, but his defection to the Rebellion, which is the enemy to Jabba. I always just assumed that during A New Hope Jabba and Han were still friends to some degree, although based on the threat Jabba leaves Han with it makes sense why in latter films he is running for his life, he not only received a HUGE sum of money from the Rebellion for rescuing the princess, which he could have paid Jabba with, he also defected to the Rebellion and kept the money instead of paying his debts, so it to me does not look at all like Han stepped on Jabbas tail and got away with anything, hell Jabba was so fed up with Han when he finally caught up with him he had all he could take.

Does any of that make sense?

Simple = Han was a Pirate, a real cold blooded scoundrel and a bad ass but there was one person he was afraid of...Jabba because the Hutts ran the whole crime syndicate in that system.

[phatrat1982]

I don't know where you get Han was sacred of Jabba though. In the original unedited scene the dialog is still the same and he still puts his finger in Jabba's face and tells him Don't Push it. Doesn't him standing up to Jabba indicate that he is not afraid of Jabba. Yeah he knew he had a need to settle his debt but at the end of A New Hope he comes not only into a ton of cash but also the good graces of the Alliance. If he feared Jabba that much he would have just paid his debt with his money he got from saving the Princess, after all he stated that as his intention at the time. His comment in Empire would be the only indication that he decided to return to his commitment to pay off his debt but that was 2-5 years time from the previous movie, in all that time if he really feared Jabba he would have paid his debt. I could accept he was afraid of say Bobba Fett because in Empire his comment was that running into a bounty hunter was what changed his mind about staying with the rebellion, but he showed no fear it looked more to me like he decided maybe it was time to get it off his back.

I just do not see how stepping on Jabba's tail makes Han any less bad ass or Jabba any less menacing. At the time it happened the two were still friends, listen to the exchange between them that does not sound like the Godfather that sounds like a friend giving a fair warning that I like you but if you don't pay me you will be sorry.




Not to mention in Jedi Han stands up to Jabba the entire time even knowing he is facing certain death, I always took that as a testament of his having no fear in that situation. Come to think of it I can't recall a single instance in the entire trilogy where he showed any real fear at all.

‪"Star Wars" (1977) - The Original Jabba Scene (RARE)‬‏ - YouTube

[Duffy12]

Originally Posted by phatrat1982

Ok so I am trying to figure this out and now I am even more confused. The reason people do not like Greedo shooting at Han is because it deminishes he bad assness in their mind? But the same people have a problem with Han stepping on Jabbas tail and getting away with it because it makes him look too bad ass?

I never had a problem with accepting that prior to the events of A New Hope that Han and Jabba were on pretty equal footing, and after Han not only dropped his cargo because of an Imperial boarding incident, but his defection to the Rebellion, which is the enemy to Jabba. I always just assumed that during A New Hope Jabba and Han were still friends to some degree, although based on the threat Jabba leaves Han with it makes sense why in latter films he is running for his life, he not only received a HUGE sum of money from the Rebellion for rescuing the princess, which he could have paid Jabba with, he also defected to the Rebellion and kept the money instead of paying his debts, so it to me does not look at all like Han stepped on Jabbas tail and got away with anything, hell Jabba was so fed up with Han when he finally caught up with him he had all he could take.

Does any of that make sense?

The SE of the Han/Greedo scene just looks visually awful the way it is now regardless of the importance of Han or Greedo's character arc.
Before it had a humorous Sergio Leone Western style to it and always brought a smile to my face, but NOW it just makes me want to reach for an airsick bag.


And as for the Han/Jabba SE scene, I could care less how Han disrespects him. He could throw cream pies in Jabba's face for all that I care, as the marvel of the 'Chapter Skip' button on the remote handles that unpleasant eyesore very nicely.




LUCASFILM motto: "If it ain't broke...fix it until it is."






.

[Cowboy]

Originally Posted by phatrat1982

I don't know where you get Han was sacred of Jabba though. In the original unedited scene the dialog is still the same and he still puts his finger in Jabba's face and tells him Don't Push it. Doesn't him standing up to Jabba indicate that he is not afraid of Jabba. Yeah he knew he had a need to settle his debt but at the end of A New Hope he comes not only into a ton of cash but also the good graces of the Alliance. If he feared Jabba that much he would have just paid his debt with his money he got from saving the Princess, after all he stated that as his intention at the time. His comment in Empire would be the only indication that he decided to return to his commitment to pay off his debt but that was 2-5 years time from the previous movie, in all that time if he really feared Jabba he would have paid his debt. I could accept he was afraid of say Bobba Fett because in Empire his comment was that running into a bounty hunter was what changed his mind about staying with the rebellion, but he showed no fear it looked more to me like he decided maybe it was time to get it off his back.

I just do not see how stepping on Jabba's tail makes Han any less bad ass or Jabba any less menacing. At the time it happened the two were still friends, listen to the exchange between them that does not sound like the Godfather that sounds like a friend giving a fair warning that I like you but if you don't pay me you will be sorry.




Not to mention in Jedi Han stands up to Jabba the entire time even knowing he is facing certain death, I always took that as a testament of his having no fear in that situation. Come to think of it I can't recall a single instance in the entire trilogy where he showed any real fear at all.





‪"Star Wars" (1977) - The Original Jabba Scene (RARE)‬‏ - YouTube

that scene was never in the film.....he claims now its because he could not create the jabba he wanted. Back then it was because the scene slowed the film down so we the audience NEVER saw that back then and yes it changes both characters.

[PeterTHX]

Originally Posted by Cowboy

that scene was never in the film.....he claims now its because he could not create the jabba he wanted. Back then it was because the scene slowed the film down so we the audience NEVER saw that back then and yes it changes both characters.

"Claims now".

It was in the novelization, the radio play, the comic...EVERY VERSION other than the film. The storyboards clearly show a creature.

He added it back to the film when he could, period.

[Cowboy]

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

"Claims now".

It was in the novelization, the radio play, the comic...EVERY VERSION other than the film. The storyboards clearly show a creature.

He added it back to the film when he could, period.

Hmm think you misunderstood what I said. Might want to reread.

[adywan]

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

"Claims now".

It was in the novelization, the radio play, the comic...EVERY VERSION other than the film. The storyboards clearly show a creature.

He added it back to the film when he could, period.

Sorry, but you are wrong. These are not reasons to prove that the Jabba scene was always going to be in the movie. The storyboard that shows the human jabba with a creature that Looks like the Jabba we know was not done around the time of filming ANH. It was done AFTER they started filming Jedi. You can tell this because jabba wasn't even designed before this and that Salacious crumb, who also wasn't designed or created until jedi, is standing next to jabba.. The comics worked from an early version of the shooting script and on set and pictures taken from dailies. Again the novelization worked from an early scripts. Now George did originally want Jabba to be this creature and they were going to do it with stop motion, but that was impossible, so he filmed the scene with jabba as a human. If he was going to replace the human character in post production then why did jabba wear a costume and why was the line added when Han says "Jabba, you're a wonderful human being"? Surely he wouldn't have spent money on making a costume when he was going to replace it or add that dialogue. The scene was cut due to the pacing of the films and he felt that having the first reveal of the Millennium Falcon to be when the heroes first see it worked much better. The Jabba dialogue was moved to the Han/ Greedo scene. It was only when they started filming ROTJ and George saw Jabba that he started thinking about having that scene reincorporated into the film. The whole jabba scene doesn't work because most of it now is just repeated dialogue. The scene was finished with the human jabba but was cut BY George because he didn't like the casting or what it did to the pacing of the film.

here is an old interview with marcia Lucas which explains the truth of the jabba scene:

"One curiosity of note is that she was one of the few people who was in favor of the Jabba the Hutt scene (before the Greedo dialogue was re-written), and initially argued in favour of keeping it in the film. She describes:

"Jabba was a big debatable item. George had never liked the scene Jabba was in because he felt that the casting was never strong enough. There was an element, however, that I liked a lot because of the way George had filmed it. Jabba was seen in a long shot and he was yelling, while in the foreground, in a big close-up, Han's body wiped into the left corner of the frame and his hand was on a gun and he said, 'I've been waiting for you, Jabba.' Then we cut to Han's face and Jabba turned around. I thought it was a very verile moment for Han's character; it made him a real macho guy, and Harrison's performance was very good. I lobbied to keep the scene. But Jabba was not terrific, and Jabba's men, who all looked like Greedo, were made of molded green plastic. George thought they looked pretty phony, so he had two reasons for wanting to cut the scene: the appearance of Jabba's men and the pacing of the movie. You have to pick up the pacing in an action movie like Star Wars , so ultimately, the scene wasn't necessary.""

So that doesn't really fit with what he has since said. it was GEORGE that didn't want the scene in the film because he didn't like the henchmen and for the pacing of the movie.

[phatrat1982]

I do not get the whole repeated dialog argument though because Han had a different conversation with Greedo than he did with Jabba but he repeated his explanation to Jabba, how is that any different than me having a conversation with you today and going across the street and repeating the same conversation with my sister? So what if the dialog is the same he explained himself to Greedo, Jabba was not present for that conversation so he had to explain himself to Jabba. Only a couple of lines are the same and in context they work just fine. Now if Jabba had been in the cantina scene and heard everything Han said or if Greedo had been in the Hanger scene you might make a point but how inconceivable is it that a person who is trouble with a gangster for dropping his load would need to explain his reason for doing so to the man he owes the money to?

Now true I will give you that it does slow down the pace of the movie and I will give you that it could be argued that seeing the Falcon for the first time as Luke enters it was a big deal but I don't see anything wrong with the dialog being repeated or him stepping on Jabba's tail. All I see there is it solidifies Han as a pirate on the fringe of society. He just killed a man either in cold blood or self defense but either way he showed no emotion about it, he turns around and walks up to this gangster and puts his finger in his face and tells him not to disrespect him. The exchange between the two conveys a sense of familiarity between the two, even mutual respect. The only part that might be construed as diminishing Hans character is the Greedo incident. Now I am not saying I am for the Greedo change, I really never was because that does look out of place, I will concede that, but I have always been for the Jabba scene ever since reading the book and seeing a behind the scenes special way back when I was a kid and they showed the original scene as it was then. Yeah there is no way Lucas could have reinserted that scene without replacing the Jabba stand in.


As for the "your a wonderful human being" hey my mom who new it was not in the original but never knew it used to be a man standing there thought it was funny like it was an insult to Jabba. That was how I took it like he was just kidding around with his buddy. The whole scene to me shows that they were most likely friends up to that point. In the original filmed scene I linked to and the special edition scene you get the same sense of Han and Jabba that you get out of Han and Lando. They are friends who mutually respect each other but within that respect they also know to no trust one another too much. Jabba shows he trusts Han, so he must have had dealings with him in the past and the swagger Han portrays reminds me of Jack Sparrow to a degree so it all works fine to me.


I hope you don't take my comments as arguing at all I am just trying to discuss it civil like because I do tend to agree with you on a lot of issues but this scene in particular I just don't share your assessment of and I hope I have showed why.


I wasn't around in '77 so sadly my first viewing of Star Wars was a VHS recording off of a network broadcast which was very low quality so to date every release since for me has been an improvement.

[PeterTHX]

Originally Posted by adywan

Han says "Jabba, you're a wonderful human being"? Surely he wouldn't have spent money on making a costume when he was going to replace it or add that dialogue.

You're right. Sarcasm is just not part of Han's character and he's always literal.

The scene was cut due to the pacing of the films and he felt that having the first reveal of the Millennium Falcon to be when the heroes first see it worked much better.

You don't see much of the Falcon in the Jabba shots, the full reveal still works.

The Jabba dialogue was moved to the Han/ Greedo scene.

So Han complains to Greedo about Greedo, and then tells Greedo he's paying plus extra and Greedo lets him go. Got it.

Even with the Marcia quote, it still shows that when he had the tech available, Lucas was able to restore the Jabba scene.

[adywan]

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

You're right. Sarcasm is just not part of Han's character and he's always literal.



You don't see much of the Falcon in the Jabba shots, the full reveal still works.



So Han complains to Greedo about Greedo, and then tells Greedo he's paying plus extra and Greedo lets him go. Got it.

Even with the Marcia quote, it still shows that when he had the tech available, Lucas was able to restore the Jabba scene.

Did you even bother reading what i wrote or just decided to pick bits out and twist them to prove your argument? IT WAS GEORGE HIMSELF THAT CUT THE SCENE DUE TO PACING! nothing to do with not being able to do the creature at all. Jabba was human in the original cut which is why Han said the line. Nothing to do with sarcasm. Marcia battled to keep it in but George cut it out. And the dialogue that mattered about Han dumping the shipment and about him being boarded was moved to the Greedo scene. Just watch the original greedo scene from the original B&W cantina scene and you will see just how different the conversation between Greedo and Han was. I can't believe that even after the quote you somehow manage to read into it that it shows that when he had the tech he wanted to restore the jabba scene. Where the hell did you see that in what was said? The proof was there that he never wanted it in there because it ruined the pace NOTHING MORE

Believe what you want, i just can't be bothered arguing with you. It wouldn't matter how much proof i gave you would still read into it something different

[Dynamo of Eternia]

Originally Posted by phatrat1982

I do not get the whole repeated dialog argument though because Han had a different conversation with Greedo than he did with Jabba but he repeated his explanation to Jabba, how is that any different than me having a conversation with you today and going across the street and repeating the same conversation with my sister? So what if the dialog is the same he explained himself to Greedo, Jabba was not present for that conversation so he had to explain himself to Jabba. Only a couple of lines are the same and in context they work just fine. Now if Jabba had been in the cantina scene and heard everything Han said or if Greedo had been in the Hanger scene you might make a point but how inconceivable is it that a person who is trouble with a gangster for dropping his load would need to explain his reason for doing so to the man he owes the money to?

The difference is that it doesn't make for particularly good film-making. Repeating nearly identical dialogue in scenes that appear back to back is just redundant. It's not interesting for the audience.

When things are done properly, rarely are things repeated. When they are, it's usually not in a scene that immediately follows, and usually comes up when there's a specific reason why the audience should/needs to be reminded of it. And even then, it's usually a small quick reminder of something that was originally longer. Rarely is a fairly sizable part of a conversation completely repeated.

In the case of someone explaining the same information to more than 1 person (and these being reasonably lengthy conversations), you usually would see the first conversation in full, and then something would happen like a following scene coming in towards the end of the information being repeated (with us hearing the tail-end of what we heard earlier), and then you get the reaction of the character who is just getting this info.

As it exists now, the conversations are very redundant.

Plus, it's not like it would really require anything complicated to change Greedo's dialogue. He's already speaking in an alien language. All that would really need to be done is to basically insert the originally planned dialogue in subtitle form into the scene, and all is well. Maybe it would need to be slightly reworked so that the length of what he is saying verbally matches up roughly with the length of the subtitled sentences (i.e. you wouldn't want something like that joke in Wayne's World when Wayne says like 3 words in Cantonese and then like a whole paragraph of subtitles follow), and they would need to account for when Greedo says Solo's name to make sure that still matches up as well. But beyond that, it's a simple fix. We're talking maybe 20 to 30 minutes of reworking the dialogue, and then typing it out. That's not exactly a rocket science.

It would be much harder if we were talking about dialogue that was written on paper but never recorded that would need to be spoken by an actor who speaks English throughout the whole movie, and in that case there might be something of an excuse.

Originally Posted by adywan

Did you even bother reading what i wrote or just decided to pick bits out and twist them to prove your argument?

It's most definitely the latter. He has a tendency of doing that. He picks out little bits to argue against, taking them out of context in the process, and he completely misses the overall point that is being made.