Physical & Digital EST: The Future of Home Video Discussion Thread

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by avs commenter

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/th...rately-1138556

Someday maybe the U.S. Supreme Court will decide this issue once and for all? I expect that there will be more legal challenges regarding digital copies.

While the lawyers split hairs and deluge us with their legalese, the common ordinary folk continue to follow their own conscience. They do as they wish with the discs in their combo packs and they do as they wish with the included digital codes seeing no distinction between the two.

While the mythical "court of common sense" has no legal standing, people will apply their own understanding of what is fair and just. As there has been little to no enforcement at the consumer level, people will continue to do what they think is right. It appears that reselling or giving away digital codes ranks right up there with mattress tag removal among the priorities of law enforcement.

[Wendell R. Breland]

Originally Posted by Vilya

As a practical matter, there has been little actual enforcement regarding the selling or giving away of digital copies.

Good post.

Disney did sue Redbox for selling digital movie codes. The document I have made reference to is the case file for that lawsuit. It is the reason I have asked folks if they have found a way to get a refund from Disney for the digital codes included with physical disc. That was a condition for the injunction to be valid after 90 days of the ruling.

There hasn't been another peep from Redbox nor Disney since last fall on this matter. No telling what kind of back room deals have been struck.

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland

Good post.

Disney did sue Redbox for selling digital movie codes. The document I have made reference to is the case file for that lawsuit. It is the reason I have asked folks if they have found a way to get a refund from Disney for the digital codes included with physical disc. That was a condition for the injunction to be valid after 90 days of the ruling.

There hasn't been another peep from Redbox nor Disney since last fall on this matter. No telling what kind of back room deals have been struck.

People won't seek refunds when they aren't even aware of their availability. Refunds permitted in a court decision that almost no consumer will have ever read. If such a clause exists permitting such a refund it is likely buried in the court decision and it likely comes with a number of hoops to jump through to obtain said refund.

[Wendell R. Breland]

Originally Posted by Vilya

If such a clause exists permitting such a refund it is likely buried in the court decision and it likely comes with a number of hoops to jump through to obtain said refund.

The judge told Disney it must, “that it clearly and prominently indicate...”

IMO, Disney let the injunction lapse therefore they don’t have to provide a refund. And we will never know what Redbox got from this ordeal.

In case anyone is wondering. Redbox has contracts with all the studios, except Disney, to be supplied with rental disc. For Disney titles, Redbox has to purchase physical copies at retail outlets. So Redbox took to selling the digital codes and Disney sued Redbox.

[Wendell R. Breland]

For people in the Colorado Springs, CO area, John Schuermann of The Screening Room AV is having a big 4K projector shootout. Info here. Kris Deering from Sound & Vision Magazine is hosting. This via Bill Hunt at The Digital Bits.

[johndoyle123]

This is a repost from elsewhere:

I feel the need to chime in here ,

From a outward perspective forums are usually what are considered
Bubble mentality, and very rarely represent the mass market.
Now this tends to operate at either end of a spectrum , you either have die hard supporters or staunch opposition.
Very rarely do either represent any form of consensus.

A realistic one anyway.
Now if we face the facts, and those being that Blu-Ray and physical media for movies in general has seen over half of its market be swallowed by streaming / digital , a few manufacturers have moved on to different markets (Oppo , Samsung chasing mobile tech and higher revenue areas)
This decline is not going to stop , it will continue until home video is a niche.

However

What the market has taught us, as with vinyl and books. Digital growth eventually plateus itself, exponential growth eventually caps out at at stage where the people who are going to adapt to digital media’s have already moved and then the remaining split fluxes in a form of equilibrium where it doesn’t really decline or grow ( as new physical collectors come and go ) and digital growth will go up but it will more likely be new customers to the market.

Vinyl is worth a tiny percentage of the music market, but what it has proven is a rich vein niche of quality releases supporting fans is much healthier for the hardcore than mass mainstream appeal.
I think big labels will start to lower print runs of big titles heavily or start to licence out to third party’s (like they do with soundtracks etc currently)
It will open up possibilities.
But home media will never be mainstream again, now this is not a zero sum market and people expecting it to completely disappear are delusional

Asia is a bastion for physical media and even after it fades elsewhere it will flourish here, manufacturers will also start appearing in the form of third parties unlike the ones we have now, more likely tailored around collectors.
Just like with the recent vhs resurrection amongst horror fans

Home physical media will not become obsolete just shrink to a niche
And some day it may have a slight digital pushback like vinyl and books.

A good way of judging this, is video games.
Unlike movies physical sales of video games on home consoles are primarily physical, it has a much stronger ownership culture than movies and a very rich vein collectors market probably larger than home movies now.
50-60% of ps4 games sold are physical and Nintendo switch is at about 70%

Now this is declining, but it’s not in free fall like dvd , and with the arrival of next generation we now know for sure the ps5 and most likely Xbox will both use the bdxl format. Considering console generations run up to 10 years that gives Blu Ray replication at least until then as both formats will be using this.
Red dead redemption 2 recently sold 23 million copies on Blu-Ray disc.

Most likely is even after the ps5 due to several factors including
‪-backward compatibility ‬
-forward compatibility
-internet infrastructure
-percentage of sales dominant
-retailers offline and online incentive to sell through system
-emerging economies
-Asian markets (heavy ownership)
-rich vein collectors group (Nintendo in particular)

The market will most likely continue for another generation after the ps5, at least with Sony and Nintendo (Asian companies and like I said about the Asian culture around ownership being strong)

The culture on forums is very unhealthy lately

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by johndoyle123

The culture on forums is very unhealthy lately

What's unhealthy on forums is copying and pasting identical walls of text into multiple threads. If you really think being here is unhealthy, then by all means save yourself from this toxic environment.

Participating in a forum is voluntary. If doing so causes you any injury, then consider it a self-inflicted wound and ask yourself why you subject yourself to them.

Physical media is for those that want to own their content and not for those who simply want access to a lot of it. Before streaming, many people just relied upon the offerings of their pay TV subscriptions augmented by the occasional trip to the video rental store. Streaming has more in common with pay TV than it does with anything else.

You claim that digital growth will "plateau." It will; the market is becoming saturated with ever more providers chasing the same subscriber base. Likewise, decline in physical media sales will also plateau. Again, the main component driving physical media sales downwards are DVD sales.

I agree with much of your rambling post. Discs will remain for those that want them, both here and abroad. They will not dominate the home video market; they never did as pay TV has always been, and still remains, the elephant in that room.

[Steedeel]

One thing I find interesting is that no one (Disc or digital) has mentioned the huge elephant in the room that is climate change. Why is that significant? Well, over the next 20-30 years it has been suggested that households will need to switch to solar panels for their electricity. The big problem with that? They don’t work at night! If you work during the day, how are you supposed to access your tv?

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by Steedeel

One thing I find interesting is that no one (Disc or digital) has mentioned the huge elephant in the room that is climate change. Why is that significant? Well, over the next 20-30 years it has been suggested that households will need to switch to solar panels for their electricity. The big problem with that? They don’t work at night! If you work during the day, how are you supposed to access your tv?

Batteries.

They can store electricity generated by solar panels.

"The average U.S. household will use roughly 30 kilowatt-hours (kWh) of energy per day and a typical solar battery can deliver some 10 kWh of capacity. Thus a very simple answer would be, if you purchased three solar batteries, you could run your home for an entire day with nothing but battery support."

https://www.energysage.com/solar/sol...-solar-panels/

You could also augment your solar power with wind power which blows day and night alike.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by Vilya

Batteries.

They can store electricity generated by solar panels.

You could also augment your solar power with wind power which blows day and night alike.

Batteries that would supply a few hours back up are upwards of £5,000. The much cheaper ones only have very limited back up.

[Matthew.H]

Originally Posted by Steedeel

One thing I find interesting is that no one (Disc or digital) has mentioned the huge elephant in the room that is climate change. Why is that significant? Well, over the next 20-30 years it has been suggested that households will need to switch to solar panels for their electricity. The big problem with that? They don’t work at night! If you work during the day, how are you supposed to access your tv?

There are battery options for storing energy generated by solar panels currently. Major downside to them is there expensive and bad for the environment to make them. Also there are other forms of renewable energy available. Wind/Hydro to name two which will still provide power at night.

[Ender14]

Originally Posted by Steedeel

One thing I find interesting is that no one (Disc or digital) has mentioned the huge elephant in the room that is climate change. Why is that significant? Well, over the next 20-30 years it has been suggested that households will need to switch to solar panels for their electricity. The big problem with that? They don’t work at night! If you work during the day, how are you supposed to access your tv?

My Dad used to live in Maryland and the neighborhood he lived in had 10+ houses that used solar panels for electricity. As Vilya said, the panels charge batteries that actually run the electricity in the home. The electrical panel is not fed directly from the panels but from the battery packs.

[Wendell R. Breland]

Originally Posted by Steedeel

If you work during the day, how are you supposed to access your tv?

Large banks of batteries and a big inverter.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by Matthew.H

There are battery options for storing energy generated by solar panels currently. Major downside to them is there expensive and bad for the environment to make them. Also there are other forms of renewable energy available. Wind/Hydro to name two which will still provide power at night.

Solar panels will be the most commonly used, at least in my country. It is a very real possibility that as home cinema fans, we will not be able to watch films in the evening.

[Ender14]

Originally Posted by Steedeel

Solar panels will be the most commonly used, at least in my country. It is a very real possibility that as home cinema fans, we will not be able to watch films in the evening.

I don't think that will ever be a concern. Those houses had perfect electricity at night as evidenced by the lights and TV screens that could be seen through the windows.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by Ender14

My Dad used to live in Maryland and the neighborhood he lived in had 10+ houses that used solar panels for electricity. As Vilya said, the panels charge batteries that actually run the electricity in the home. The electrical panel is not fed directly from the panels but from the battery packs.

So they stored sufficient energy to be usable when the sun went down?

Oh sorry. Just saw your reply.

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by Steedeel

Batteries that would supply a few hours back up are upwards of £5,000. The much cheaper ones only have very limited back up.

These batteries are currently expensive, $5000-$7000 each, but they last for 5-15 years depending on which you select, albeit with declining capacity, typically running at 70% after a decade.

As mentioned in my previous post, a single 10Kwh battery can provide up to 8 hours of power for the average household; three will cover the entire day.

Also, if solar power became a more common source for power, increased production of said batteries would likely drive the costs downwards. Newer more efficient batteries may also be developed.

Again, you can augment solar with other technologies, wind, hydro, gerbils, etc.

[Steedeel]

I see Tesla’s battery (powerwall) will set you back $6,000 and that’s before installation!

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by Vilya

These batteries are currently expensive, $5000-$ 7000 each, but they last for 5-15 years depending on which you select, albeit with declining capacity, typically running at 70% after a decade.

As mentioned in my previous post, a single 10Kwh battery can provide up to 8 hours of power for the average household; three will cover the entire day.

Also, if solar power became a more common source for power, increased production of said batteries would likely drive the costs downwards. Newer more efficient batteries may also be developed.

Again, you can augment solar with other technologies, wind, hydro, gerbils, etc.

Like another poster said though, manufacturing of them is harmful to the environment.?

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland

Large banks of batteries and a big inverter.

Sounds a bit too ‘cabin in the woods’ for my liking.