Physical & Digital EST: The Future of Home Video Discussion Thread

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by Vilya

Nope. Still need to resume with FWWM.

Easily distracted due to too much free time, too many hobbies, too many toys, and too much role playing; they spread me out thin.

Watch it man!

[avs commenter]

The bitrate on 5.1 surround will increase from 192 Kbps to 640 Kbps. The bitrate used to deliver Dolby Atmos will increase from 448 Kbps to 768 Kbps. To enjoy Dolby Atmos you must subscribe to Netflix's 'Premium' plan.

- "Our high-quality sound feature is not lossless, but it is perceptually transparent. That means that while the audio is compressed, it is indistinguishable from the original source. Based on internal listening tests, listening test results provided by Dolby, and scientific studies, we determined that for Dolby Digital Plus at and above 640 kbps, the audio coding quality is perceptually transparent. Beyond that, we would be sending you files that have a higher bitrate (and take up more bandwidth) without bringing any additional value to the listening experience," the company argued.

https://www.flatpanelshd.com/news.ph...&id=1556717977

[Gretiem]

Originally Posted by avs commenter

https://www.flatpanelshd.com/news.ph...&id=1556717977

still nowhere near enough

[avs commenter]

I tested it out the other day. I'm no audio expert, but it sounded good and was a noticeable improvement from before

[Steedeel]

Not happy with interactive crap, Netflix now want to split movies into a mini series. The first one will be The Hateful Eight.

[alchav21]

Originally Posted by avs commenter

I tested it out the other day. I'm no audio expert, but it sounded good and was a noticeable improvement from before

Yes I agree with you, with Adaptive Streaming the Quality keeps going up according to your Bandwidth.

https://medium.com/netflix-techblog/...x-eaa0b6145f32

Streaming Digital will reach higher levels, but you will have to have the right equipment set up and Bandwidth. I think Symmetrical Bandwidth is key to Adaptive Streaming.

[Wendell R. Breland]

Originally Posted by alchav21

Yes I agree with you, with Adaptive Streaming the Quality keeps going up according to your Bandwidth.

With adaptive streaming the quality may go up or down, just depends on several factors (see the article referenced below). There is a maximum and minimum for each title in question. Once you get to 16 Mbps that’s it for the maximum, there ain’t no more. If you have network problems and the minimum can not be streamed then the program will stop and try to fill the buffers.

For adaptive streaming to work content providers has to create numerous encodes of varying quality and bit rates for each title to be streamed. I will use “House of Cards” as an example. I will do this from memory so the numbers may not be exact and some quality levels may get left out. Each file size is for 60 minutes. First number is resolution, second number is bit rate in Mbps and third number is file size in GB.

3840 x 2160, 15.35, 6.91
3840 x 2160, 11.45, 5.15
3840 x 2160, 07.65, 3.44
1920 x 1080, 06.85, 3.08
1920 x 1080, 03.75, 1.69
1280 x 0720, 02.35, 1.06
0854 x 0480, 01.25, 0.56

So the total storage space would be 21.89 GB for that one hour episode of “Cards.” As one can see it would not be practical to try and provide Blu-ray bit rates and storage for streaming. Click here for a Netflix article about audio. In that article they show how each stream is segmented and explain how adaptive streaming works.

Form this it should be very clear as to why one can not simply take the files from a Blu-ray disc and place them on a CDN.

From the article, “Delivering a great playback experience is difficult.”

[avs commenter]

Originally Posted by alchav21

Yes I agree with you, with Adaptive Streaming the Quality keeps going up according to your Bandwidth.

https://medium.com/netflix-techblog/...x-eaa0b6145f32

Streaming Digital will reach higher levels, but you will have to have the right equipment set up and Bandwidth. I think Symmetrical Bandwidth is key to Adaptive Streaming.

This is the problem a lot of people I know have. They rely on the crap equipment their internet provider gives/sells them.

I noticed a huge difference when I bought my own router and modem. I can stream UHD all day without any difficulty or buffering.

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by avs commenter

https://www.flatpanelshd.com/news.ph...&id=1556717977

So, a company providing an inferior product, lossy audio in this case where data is actually discarded from the original source, tells me that they have determined that I won't perceive the inferiority and that is supposed to convince and comfort me how?

"Our product is lower quality, but we're confident that you are too obtuse to notice it!"

I am not saying that streaming's lossy audio is some hideous abomination, but the audio from a disc often sounds more than just "perceptually" better; it is obviously better.

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by alchav21

Yes I agree with you, with Adaptive Streaming the Quality keeps going up according to your Bandwidth.

https://medium.com/netflix-techblog/...x-eaa0b6145f32

Streaming Digital will reach higher levels, but you will have to have the right equipment set up and Bandwidth. I think Symmetrical Bandwidth is key to Adaptive Streaming.

Adaptive streaming only goes up to the maximum bitrate that a streaming provider offers, 16 Mbps in the case of Netflix and 15 Mbps in the case of Vudu. You can have 10 Gbps internet and Netflix will still, at most, provide a bitrate of 16 Mbps.

You can think anything that you please, but thinking it does not make it a fact. No streaming provider lists an upload speed requirement for their service. They only state a download speed requirement. If streaming providers had an upload speed requirement they would precisely state what it was; they do not have such a requirement and thus they do not state one.

Why is that? Because upload speeds are all but irrelevant to streaming. Streaming is almost entirely a one way street of downloaded data.

Saying that you need the right equipment and adequate bandwidth to stream successfully is just stating the obvious, so why do you keep doing it?

I have to have the right equipment to watch optical disc formats; what a revelation! Aren't you glad I shared that tidbit?

Where is your proof that streaming will get better? Bitrates have been stagnant since 2015. No new amazing codecs have been deployed with streaming since then, either.

Why does it even need to get better when most streaming customers are already pleased with the quality that they receive now? Higher data storage and more bandwidth costs everyone more money. You should realize that businesses prefer to minimize costs as much as possible, not increase them unless there is a compelling reason to do so. Customers are not fond of increased prices, either, especially when they do not see a good reason for them.

Why would a streaming provider want the HUGE expense of dramatically increasing their storage requirements? Why would streaming providers want to pay for more internet bandwidth to stream that higher amount of data to customers? When their customers are not even asking them for such upgrades? Why would an already satisfied customer want to pay more for an improvement that they did not see as necessary in the first place?

[Wendell R. Breland]

Originally Posted by avs commenter

This is the problem a lot of people I know have. They rely on the crap equipment their internet provider gives/sells them.

I noticed a huge difference when I bought my own router and modem. I can stream UHD all day without any difficulty or buffering.

If true, I would not admit that I knew such people. Most people that I know has very little to no technical knowledge but they all know how to run a speed test. Really, how hard is this? If they are ignorant of internet speeds then they most likely don’t care about UHD, HDR10, DV, Atmos, etc.

[avs commenter]

Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland

If true, I would not admit that I knew such people. Most people that I know has very little to no technical knowledge but they all know how to run a speed test. Really, how hard is this? If they are ignorant of internet speeds then they most likely don’t care about UHD, HDR10, DV, Atmos, etc.

It's not all about your internet speed. Especially with so many devices now connected to the internet. You need good equipment for a more consistent experience

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by avs commenter

This is the problem a lot of people I know have. They rely on the crap equipment their internet provider gives/sells them.

I noticed a huge difference when I bought my own router and modem. I can stream UHD all day without any difficulty or buffering.

I can stream all levels of content reliably from every source that I have tried except for Amazon Prime.

With Amazon Prime streaming, the video almost always freezes up and disintegrates into a mosaic mess while the audio keeps going forward. This happens no matter the time of day or night that I attempt to watch them. I have to pause and wait for the buffering to catch up before I can resume. It happens with my wired and my wireless connections alike. It happens with my modem and router and it also happens with a different modem and router provided by my ISP; I swapped for a brief period to see if their equipment performed any better than mine and it made no difference.

Netflix, Vudu, and Youtube stream reliably; Amazon Prime disappoints continually, which is a shame because I like their selection better than that of Netflix.

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by avs commenter

It's not all about your internet speed. Especially with so many devices now connected to the internet. You need good equipment for a more consistent experience

Of course you need good equipment. You need good equipment with any tech gear if you want a positive experience. Does anyone ever say that you should use substandard equipment? This is BEYOND obvious to state.

If you defined what you think constitutes good equipment, make and model, configuration, etc., someone might be able to benefit from that information.

"It's not just about getting enough exercise, you need good nutrition."

The preceding was an obvious statement of no practical value as "good nutrition" is not defined nor was "enough exercise." There is nothing in that statement that I can directly benefit from, same as with these "you need good equipment" generalities.

[avs commenter]

Originally Posted by Vilya

Of course you need good equipment. You need good equipment with any tech gear if you want a positive experience. Does anyone ever say that you should use substandard equipment? This is BEYOND obvious to state.

If you defined what you think constitutes good equipment, make and model, configuration, etc., someone might be able to benefit from that information.

It's not just about getting enough exercise, you need good nutrition. The preceding was an obvious statement of no practical value as "good nutrition" is not defined.

Well Wendy thinks all you need to do is run a speed test.

My point was I know many people who always relied on their ISP's equipment and would often complain about their performance. I myself had similar issues until I upgraded on my own. ISP's around here are notorious for providing outdated equipment

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by avs commenter

Well Wendy thinks all you need to do is run a speed test.

My point was I know many people who always relied on their ISP's equipment and would often complain about their performance. I myself had similar issues until I upgraded on my own. ISP's around here are notorious for providing outdated equipment

Just another example showing that many companies spend no more than they must; they do the least that they can get away with.

I would bet that many of those same people who rely upon their ISP to take care of them (such naivete) also just see this unreliable performance as normal. I am amused when people assume that their experience is everyone's experience.

Still, if I am going to tell someone that they need good, or better, equipment, it would be helpful to offer some specific recommendations.

[avs commenter]

Originally Posted by Vilya

Just another example showing that many companies spend no more than they must; they do the least that they can get away with.

I would bet that many of those same people who rely upon their ISP to take care of them (such naivete) also just see this unreliable performance as normal. I am amused when people assume that their experience is everyone's experience.

Still, if I am going to tell someone that they need good, or better, equipment, it would be helpful to offer some specific recommendations.

You don't need to spend a ton of money. I upgraded my router and modem for less than $400.

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by avs commenter

You don't need to spend a ton of money. I upgraded my router and modem for less than $400.

I understand; I use my own, too.

Renting a modem/router from an ISP is a colossal waste of money even if they provide decent ones. Paying recurring rental fees quickly exceeds the cost of buying your own.

When you use your own modem and router, your ISP, if it behaves anything like mine does, will rush to blame your equipment when there is an issue with their service. I almost always have to play this game with them.

[Wendell R. Breland]

My cable company, Morris Broadband, provides me with a DOCSIS 3.0 Arris CM820A cable modem. They do not charge for the modem, they do charge a one time deposit. They are supposed to give me a DOCSIS 3.1 modem some time soon, probably will not make any difference because my DOCSIS 3.0 modem can download at 1.2 Gbps (my plan is 60 Mbps down/4 up). I have a wired 1000 Base-T LAN with a wireless AC Wi-Fi router (Linksys WRT1900ACS).

As to streaming internet video, this setup does not work any different than my 1000 Base-T LAN and old cheap Moto Airport (DOCSIS 2.0) modem + cheap Linksys E2000 Wi-Fi router. The WRT1900ACS does have much better Wi-Fi range and has 2.4 and 5 GHz bands.

I don’t know how many times it will take so I will point it out again:

Here is the tally from AVS and Blu-ray.com posters.

Summary: First speed number is what the user reports using various speed test. The second number is the speed reported by Netflix and using their servers. All speeds are in Mbps.

???, 119 via Fios
210, 33.5
300, 22
230, 19.13 via TV, 92.12 via Blu-ray player
75, 12.15
???, 58.87
300, 70

[Vilya]

^Could you repeat that, please?