The Lord of the Rings: The Motion Picture Trilogy (Extended Edition) (2001-2003)

[P@t_Mtl]

Been reading the books of Tolkien since I was a tiny little lad back in the mid 70's and been reading them once a year since.

I see the books and the movie as two different things so I don't go crazy over some of the changes but if I were to pick two things that I do not like with the movie are these :

1 - Gandalf vs Witch-king of Angmar. Overall I love everything that was done with the extented scenes and I prefer watching them over the theatricals but that scene is just wrong for me. No way in my mind Gandalf would be this weak looking facing the Witch-king and plus being save by the bell (the arrival of the Rohirrim on the field) which take's the Witch-king away, we are left to believed that he was about to wipe the floor with Gandalf, lame and weak in my opinion.

2 - The depiction of Denethor. I do not blame John Noble (who I find is a very good actor) but Jackson and his team. They turn Denethor from a noble confuse and twisted mind to some sort of maniac with not clue For me that was the worst part of the movies, I wish they would have done that in a different way.

The rest I can live with. Some of the changes are alright, not terrible. Would I wish that they stuck closer to the book, the purist in me would say yes but nothing was a deal breaker for me.

[threefiftyrocket]

I didn't mind Denethor as much as the ramping up of Arwen into a main character, I HATED and STILL HATE her part at the ford, and the connection between her and the demise of Middle Earth. The only thing about her story that I really DIDN'T mind was a few things that were attributed to her that were actually from the Beren and Luthien story. But OH MAN do I hate the Ford scene...

If they were going to leave out Glorfindel, I preferred the Bakshi version where it was Legolas that showed up. But I know that would have taken away from the introduction at the Council.

Or they could have at LEAST left in that it was Gandalfs magic that caused the flood at the ford... grrrrrr....

[Jumpman]

rocket,

This is why more and more, I think I'll get the Extended Editions but only keep Fellowship of the Ring and then just watch the theatrical cuts of the last two.

I can separate the two entities easily. But, as times as gone by, I've come to appreciate more and more how skilled Fellowship of the Ring really is and how much creative fatigue you can feel in the last two films, to the point that I can't even watch them. It's just hard to go from the organic flow of the Fellowship of the Ring to the choppiness of the last two pictures, Towers moreso than King.

[threefiftyrocket]

Originally Posted by Jumpman

rocket,

This is why more and more, I think I'll get the Extended Editions but only keep Fellowship of the Ring and then just watch the theatrical cuts of the last two.

Nice, I can resepct that, I actually have a few friends that prefer the TE to the extra 2 hrs in the EE... granted, the Arwen stuff that I detest is in the TE too... ha!

Oh well, they are still cinematic marvels, especially for their time and I will be glad to own both TE and EE on BD, going into the Hobbit next year I will be prepared!

[Grand Bob]

Originally Posted by threefiftyrocket

That's it though, they didn't have a confrontation in the book... Thats something that was changed for dramatic effect by Boyens/Walsh/Jackson. Just like the scripted fight between Aragorn and Sauron (which Thank Eru he DID NOT go through with).

Although it is subtly hinted at throughout the book, there is only one scene in the movie (that I can remember) where the major theme of the Lord of the Rings story becomes apparent. That is the Mines of Moria scene where Gandalf tells Frodo "you were meant to have the Ring - and that is an encouraging thought". The story as told in book summarizes that the pursuit of Power (symbolized by the Ring) is always destructive (or "evil") and that although it may not be obvious, a Higher Principle is at work. That is why the most powerful "good" beings (Gandalf, Galadriel, Elrond, Aragorn) cannot use the Ring, and among other things why Gandalf was NOT intended to confront the Witch King. The Higher Principle (Eru) intended the Witch King and ultimately Sauron to be destroyed by physically weaker beings (hobbits and Eowyn) possessing the traits of fellowship and compassion, and also the fulfillment of Gandalf's statement in the book that Evil will mar itself. Of course, from the cinematic viewpoint, this is not as attention-holding (and profitable) as ass-whooping battles, so Jackson had to temper the more-exciting alternatives. As you stated, we can be especially thankful he did not use the Aragorn vs. Sauron footage, which would have been a thematic disaster.

[Witch King of Angmar]

@radagast: What are some of your favorite scenes from LOTR film trilogy?

[Jumpman]

Bob,

Although it is subtly hinted at throughout the book, there is only one scene in the movie (that I can remember) where the major theme of the Lord of the Rings story becomes apparent. That is the Mines of Moria scene where Gandalf tells Frodo "you were meant to have the Ring - and that is an encouraging thought". The story as told in book summarizes that the pursuit of Power (symbolized by the Ring) is always destructive (or "evil") and that although it may not be obvious, a Higher Principle is at work. That is why the most powerful "good" beings (Gandalf, Galadriel, Elrond, Aragorn) cannot use the Ring, and among other things why Gandalf was NOT intended to confront the Witch King. The Higher Principle (Eru) intended the Witch King and ultimately Sauron to be destroyed by physically weaker beings (hobbits and Eowyn) possessing the traits of fellowship and compassion, and also the fulfillment of Gandalf's statement in the book that Evil will mar itself. Of course, from the cinematic viewpoint, this is not as attention-holding (and profitable) as ass-whooping battles, so Jackson had to temper the more-exciting alternatives. As you stated, we can be especially thankful he did not use the Aragorn vs. Sauron footage, which would have been a thematic disaster.

You clearly have read the Rings Trilogy more than me...

[P@t_Mtl]

Originally Posted by threefiftyrocket

I didn't mind Denethor as much as the ramping up of Arwen into a main character, I HATED and STILL HATE her part at the ford, and the connection between her and the demise of Middle Earth. The only thing about her story that I really DIDN'T mind was a few things that were attributed to her that were actually from the Beren and Luthien story. But OH MAN do I hate the Ford scene...

If they were going to leave out Glorfindel, I preferred the Bakshi version where it was Legolas that showed up. But I know that would have taken away from the introduction at the Council.

Or they could have at LEAST left in that it was Gandalfs magic that caused the flood at the ford... grrrrrr....

Legolas would have made more sense but they needed to improve on the roles of Arwen & Eowyn, not enough female characters of importance and I am sure they tought they just had to make these changes to improve female viewership But it's a bit silly, these books have been the best selling books on the planet for 50 years now (with probably just the Bible or the Koran out selling them) and there is no way only guys read these books. Female fans of these books knew very well what the story was about, there was not much sense adding to the role of Arwen but what do I know

[threefiftyrocket]

Originally Posted by Grand Bob

Although it is subtly hinted at throughout the book, there is only one scene in the movie (that I can remember) where the major theme of the Lord of the Rings story becomes apparent. That is the Mines of Moria scene where Gandalf tells Frodo "you were meant to have the Ring - and that is an encouraging thought". The story as told in book summarizes that the pursuit of Power (symbolized by the Ring) is always destructive (or "evil") and that although it may not be obvious, a Higher Principle is at work. That is why the most powerful "good" beings (Gandalf, Galadriel, Elrond, Aragorn) cannot use the Ring, and among other things why Gandalf was NOT intended to confront the Witch King. The Higher Principle (Eru) intended the Witch King and ultimately Sauron to be destroyed by physically weaker beings (hobbits and Eowyn) possessing the traits of fellowship and compassion, and also the fulfillment of Gandalf's statement in the book that Evil will mar itself. Of course, from the cinematic viewpoint, this is not as attention-holding (and profitable) as ass-whooping battles, so Jackson had to temper the more-exciting alternatives. As you stated, we can be especially thankful he did not use the Aragorn vs. Sauron footage, which would have been a thematic disaster.

true, but funny none the less.

I was thinking soooo much about that theme exactly when I got to the end, and just saw exactly how important Sam was in the journey, especially right there at mount doom, and then again in the scouring of the shire.

[Show spoiler]But of course it wasn't just sam there, it was all 4 of the hobbits. Their trimph over "Sharkey" and the ruffians was just amazing. True testament to how much their adventure had changed them, and gave them the courage to stand up and fight for what they believed in, and what they thought was right.

I don't know if Tolkien intended it or not, but that one chapter seemed like a Hobbit sized war of the ring localized in The Shire. Well, since this isn't regarding the movie I think I should just shut up and bring this up in the reading group...

[threefiftyrocket]

Originally Posted by P@t_Mtl

Legolas would have made more sense but they needed to improve on the roles of Arwen & Eowyn, not enough female characters of importance and I am sure they tought they just had to make these changes to improve female viewership But it's a bit silly, these books have been the best selling books on the planet for 50 years now (with probably just the Bible or the Koran out selling them) and there is no way only guys read these books. Female fans of these books knew very well what the story was about, there was not much sense adding to the role of Arwen but what do I know

There was no need to make so many changes to Arwen. They already had their BAD@$$ female lead. Eowyn was AWESOME.

I know why they did it I just didn't like it.

Originally Posted by Jumpman

You clearly have read the Rings Trilogy more than me...

Yeah, Grand Bob and Radagast are my points of contact when I got questions about the source material

[radagast]

Originally Posted by Grand Bob

The Appendices are alot to handle for many people after finally getting to the end of the story. Some of information (example: Sam Gamgee's real name is actually "Banazir Galbasi") becomes too detailed for many readers.

You got me on that one, Grand Bob. I totally missed that.

Originally Posted by Grand Bob

Although it is subtly hinted at throughout the book, there is only one scene in the movie (that I can remember) where the major theme of the Lord of the Rings story becomes apparent. That is the Mines of Moria scene where Gandalf tells Frodo "you were meant to have the Ring - and that is an encouraging thought". The story as told in book summarizes that the pursuit of Power (symbolized by the Ring) is always destructive (or "evil") and that although it may not be obvious, a Higher Principle is at work. That is why the most powerful "good" beings (Gandalf, Galadriel, Elrond, Aragorn) cannot use the Ring, and among other things why Gandalf was NOT intended to confront the Witch King. The Higher Principle (Eru) intended the Witch King and ultimately Sauron to be destroyed by physically weaker beings (hobbits and Eowyn) possessing the traits of fellowship and compassion, and also the fulfillment of Gandalf's statement in the book that Evil will mar itself. Of course, from the cinematic viewpoint, this is not as attention-holding (and profitable) as ass-whooping battles, so Jackson had to temper the more-exciting alternatives. As you stated, we can be especially thankful he did not use the Aragorn vs. Sauron footage, which would have been a thematic disaster.

Excellent way to put it.

[Grand Bob]

Originally Posted by Jumpman

Bob,
You clearly have read the Rings Trilogy more than me...

For some reason, the story "speaks" to me . Although the movies are among the best ever made, they cannot of course compete with the book for character and plot development, long-term enjoyment, or depth of meaning. Strangely, even though I have read the book (well) over 30 times since 1973, I have not tired of it, and often find new things in successive readings. Speaking of which, we are having a group read beginning on May 28, and if you (or anyone else) are interested, it would be great to have you participate in the forum group at:
https://forum.blu-ray.com/group.php?groupid=71

[Grand Bob]

Originally Posted by radagast

You got me on that one, Grand Bob. I totally missed that.

Yes, that is a subtle one. I don't have the book in front of me, but it is in the Appendix on Languages.

[Jumpman]

Bob,

I'm exactly the same way with Star Wars. Rings doesn't "speak" to me, even though I can acknowledge how unreal the Fellowship of the Ring Extended Edition is. I mean, it's Peter Jackson's best film by a country mile. Still, the story doesn't click for me. I admire the work that Jackson and company put into the films, but it doesn't excuse a lot of the flaws I have with the films. More than anything else, I own the films out of admiration, more than actually wanting to watch them repeatedly.

With Star Wars, it's different. I don't care how much the fanbase and critics bash and try to destroy Lucas and company. To me, it's the greatest story of my lifetime. It will never be challenged or replaced in my eye, no matter what comes along.

The closest that any series has ever gotten to my beloved Wars is the Godfather Trilogy and what Nolan's doing with the Batman series.

Trust me, you have no idea what it was like to be on the outside during the Rings vs. Wars heyday between 2001-2005. I was in the outside looking in on that debate...still am.

[radagast]

Originally Posted by Witch King of Angmar

@radagast: What are some of your favorite scenes from LOTR film trilogy?

Here are a few that come to mind. I may add more as I think of them:

1) Gandalf vs. Balrog (in FOTR and TTT)
2) The Grey Havens at the very end.
3) Treebeard
4) The attack on Isengard by the Ents
5) Gandalf revealing his return to Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli
6) The Watcher in the Lake
7) The depiction of Gollum (not a scene, I know)
8) Legolas shooting several orcs in a few seconds (the extended FOTR has Legolas firing more arrows than the TE shows) during the battle in which Frodo leaves the fellowship
9) Gandalf "healing" Theoden (different from the book, but acceptable)
10) Sam rescuing Frodo
11) Shelob (I wish the phial had been used by Sam more in accordance with the book)
12) Gandalf rescuing Faramir from the Ringwraiths
13) Eowyn and Merry vs. The Witch-King

[threefiftyrocket]

Originally Posted by radagast

1) Gandalf vs. Balrog (in FOTR and TTT)

Quite possibly my #1 scene from the films. Absolutely fabulous sequence here.

I would also add at the crowning of the King

"My friends, you bow to no one." And the entire realm of Gondor kneels to the four hobbits.

That part kinda gets to me...

[Grand Bob]

Originally Posted by Jumpman

Bob,

I'm exactly the same way with Star Wars. Rings doesn't "speak" to me, even though I can acknowledge how unreal the Fellowship of the Ring Extended Edition is. I mean, it's Peter Jackson's best film by a country mile. Still, the story doesn't click for me. I admire the work that Jackson and company put into the films, but it doesn't excuse a lot of the flaws I have with the films. More than anything else, I own the films out of admiration, more than actually wanting to watch them repeatedly.

With Star Wars, it's different. I don't care how much the fanbase and critics bash and try to destroy Lucas and company. To me, it's the greatest story of my lifetime. It will never be challenged or replaced in my eye, no matter what comes along.

The closest that any series has ever gotten to my beloved Wars is the Godfather Trilogy and what Nolan's doing with the Batman series.

Trust me, you have no idea what it was like to be on the outside during the Rings vs. Wars heyday between 2001-2005. I was in the outside looking in on that debate...still am.

I also like both of them. Lord of the Rings, of course started as a literary obsession many years ago, so I was elated when Jackson finally made the movies (despite the "dumbing-down" instances from the book), even more so when additional footage was incorporated in the EE's. The first Star Wars movie was released at difficult time in my life, I had just dropped out of college (Ohio State), was living in my car (a beat-up Buick Skylark which I parked at a metropolitan park), and apparently had no future. Star Wars, which I saw many times in 1977, was my escape from reality that summer, and has held a special place for me ever since. I will always look at Lord of the Rings and Star Wars as being "more than movies".

[s2mikey]

Originally Posted by radagast

Here are a few that come to mind. I may add more as I think of them:

1) Gandalf vs. Balrog (in FOTR and TTT)
2) The Grey Havens at the very end.
3) Treebeard
4) The attack on Isengard by the Ents
5) Gandalf revealing his return to Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli
6) The Watcher in the Lake
7) The depiction of Gollum (not a scene, I know)
8) Legolas shooting several orcs in a few seconds (the extended FOTR has Legolas firing more arrows than the TE shows) during the battle in which Frodo leaves the fellowship
9) Gandalf "healing" Theoden (different from the book, but acceptable)
10) Sam rescuing Frodo
11) Shelob (I wish the phial had been used by Sam more in accordance with the book)
12) Gandalf rescuing Faramir from the Ringwraiths
13) Eowyn and Merry vs. The Witch-King

Not in any order...

1) When the Ghosts agree to fight.
2) When the war elephants first make their entrance
3) The opening of Fellowship showing/describing the Hobbits & The Shire
4) Smeegals transformation into Gollum
5) The whole battle of Helms Deep
6) The exorcism of Theodin
7) Gandalf shouting "You shall not pass" to the Balrog
8) Mouth of Sauron(great design)
9) Arwen showing up at the final ceremony
10) Minnis Tirith battle(of course).

[threefiftyrocket]

Originally Posted by Grand Bob

I also like both of them. Lord of the Rings, of course started as a literary obsession many years ago, so I was elated when Jackson finally made the movies (despite the "dumbing-down" instances from the book), even more so when additional footage was incorporated in the EE's. The first Star Wars movie was released at difficult time in my life, I had just dropped out of college (Ohio State), was living in my car (a beat-up Buick Skylark which I parked at a metropolitan park), and apparently had no future. Star Wars, which I saw many times in 1977, was my escape from reality that summer, and has held a special place for me ever since. I will always look at Lord of the Rings and Star Wars as being "more than movies".

I saw Star Wars for the first time when I was going through some pretty tough times myself. I was much younger though, about 13, and I watched the entire Trilogy just about every weekend to "forget about stuff" if you will.

[Grand Bob]

Originally Posted by radagast

Here are a few that come to mind. I may add more as I think of them:

1) Gandalf vs. Balrog (in FOTR and TTT)
2) The Grey Havens at the very end.
3) Treebeard
4) The attack on Isengard by the Ents
5) Gandalf revealing his return to Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli
6) The Watcher in the Lake
7) The depiction of Gollum (not a scene, I know)
8) Legolas shooting several orcs in a few seconds (the extended FOTR has Legolas firing more arrows than the TE shows) during the battle in which Frodo leaves the fellowship
9) Gandalf "healing" Theoden (different from the book, but acceptable)
10) Sam rescuing Frodo
11) Shelob (I wish the phial had been used by Sam more in accordance with the book)
12) Gandalf rescuing Faramir from the Ringwraiths
13) Eowyn and Merry vs. The Witch-King

The three scenes in the movies that stand out as being superior (in my opinion) are:

1) Galadriel standing with arm raised in token of farewell when the Fellowship leaves Lothlorien (note: the music of the TE is superior to that of the EE in this scene, I'm not sure why Jackson changed it), abruptly changing to the overhead shot of the Fellowship entering the Great River with accompanying Fellowship theme music. Not an action-sequence, but very thematic, and representative of the feel of the symbolic separation of the Fellowship from paradise upon re-entering the "real world".

2) The arrival of the Rohirrim on the hill near Minas Tirith with Theoden surveyng the field and assessing the full brunt of the hopeless reality of his situation. The depressing alteration of the Rohan-theme music in this scene is masterful. The ensuing "Death!" speech is the greatest motivational scene in the movie, far better than Aragorn's speech at the Black Gates of Mordor.

3) The eagles rescuing Sam and Frodo from Mount Doom. The images and music recreate the closest thing to a dream-like sequence that I have ever witnessed in a film.