Physical & Digital EST: The Future of Home Video Discussion Thread

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by avs commenter

This is such a bad and lazy post that I'm not at all surprised at who it came from.

Vincent Teoh did a comparison video and concluded that 4K streaming and UHD is very close in PQ. The difference was hardly noticeable at a normal viewing distance. But sure, go ahead and assume that people who stream don't care about calibrating their sets. Or that that's the reason they don't see a difference.

Apple TV 4K iTunes Movies (Dolby Vision HDR) vs 4K Blu-ray - YouTube

who?

[Vilya]

Apple 4K TV appears to be the best that streaming has yet offered as their bitrates are around 30 Mbps; that is twice what Vudu 4K streams (15 Mbps) achieve and nearly twice what Netflix 4K streams (16 Mbps) achieve. Apple 4K TV providing a much higher bitrate has to be a factor in why their streams are apparently the best available. Netflix and Vudu are not in the same league as Apple 4K TV.

Even so, the bitrate of a 4K disc can reach 128 Mbps, almost four times that of Apple 4K TV. During part of that lengthy video Vincent Teoh does point out some of the artifacts present during the Apple 4K TV stream that are not present on the 4K disc.

I will say that even Vudu's 4K streams can look very good, but "very good" is not the same as "great." I have compared a 4K stream from Vudu with a 4K disc of the same title and the 4K disc was clearly superior.

[avs commenter]

Originally Posted by Vilya

Apple 4K TV appears to be the best that streaming has yet offered as their bitrates are around 30 Mbps; that is twice what Vudu 4K streams (15 Mbps) achieve and nearly twice what Netflix 4K streams (16 Mbps) achieve. Apple 4K TV providing a much higher bitrate has to be a factor in why their streams are apparently the best available. Netflix and Vudu are not in the same league as Apple 4K TV.

Even so, the bitrate of a 4K disc can reach 128 Mbps, almost four times that of Apple 4K TV. During part of that lengthy video Vincent Teoh does point out some of the artifacts present during the Apple 4K TV stream that are not present on the 4K disc.

I will say that even Vudu's 4K streams can look very good, but "very good" is not the same as "great." I have compared a 4K stream from Vudu with a 4K disc of the same title and the 4K disc was clearly superior.

Yeah but maybe that's because the TV wasn't properly calibrated

[Vilya]

bruceames in the Home Video Sales thread has posted the 1st quarter results for 2019:

https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...4#post16510094

The Digital Entertainment Group report can be read here:

https://www.degonline.org/wp-content...rnote_grid.pdf

Disc sales are down a disappointing 22.35% while digital purchases are up 6.7%. Digital purchases are now almost 45% of all purchases. Even so, purchases overall are down 11.58%.

Bruce, and the article, points out that box office performance was down 20% during that same period, so lower sales can be partly explained by that fact. Whatever the causes, the results are dismal.

Subscription streaming saw growth of 20.66%. Video on demand was only up 2.27%.

The report does not break down disc sales by format, but it does point out that there is strong growth in 4K hardware, both with TVs and with 4K disc players.

53.4 million households have a 4K TV, up 55% compared to last year.

14 million households have a 4K disc player and that is up 63% compared to last year.

[The_Donster]

Originally Posted by Steedeel

You are not seeing the defects because you don’t want to.

Yes, but to be fair. You can only comment on streaming in your region. Otherwise you are relying on second hand news as a basis on why it’s worse than physical

[alchav21]

Originally Posted by Steedeel

You are not seeing the defects because you don’t want to.

Sorry Steedeel but that comment doesn't even make sense, I'm telling you what I see. Well Sony UHD TV won the Shootout again, and all the experts judged by what they saw with their own eyes too. Kaleidescape was there too and their Rep made some comments on the decline of the Disc Market, especially Blu-ray and 4K. The only Streaming Provider they tested was Netflix, and they were all amazed with the PQ they all said Streaming has come a long way.

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by alchav21

Sorry Steedeel but that comment doesn't even make sense, I'm telling you what I see. Well Sony UHD TV won the Shootout again, and all the experts judged by what they saw with their own eyes too. Kaleidescape was there too and their Rep made some comments on the decline of the Disc Market, especially Blu-ray and 4K. The only Streaming Provider they tested was Netflix, and they were all amazed with the PQ they all said Streaming has come a long way.

It is possible to see only what one wants to see, to the exclusion of all else, and you have no reference frame with which to compare a 4K stream to a 4K disc as you have no capability to even view a 4K disc. Even the much recently ballyhooed Vincent Teoh saw artifacts with Apple 4K TV's streaming that were not present on the 4K disc. If Vincent sees these artifacts, as have many of our members posting on these forums, then clearly they are there whether you notice them or not. It's fine that they don't bother you, but they are there.

The only news article that I found about any "shootout" stated that Sony's XBR 65A9G OLED TV won Value Electronic's 15th annual shootout. This TV sells for $3799.99 at Best Buy; stock up here:

https://www.bestbuy.com/site/sony-65...?skuId=6331597

The same article, linked below, that I found about the shootout said nothing about Netflix or streaming whatsoever, so where are you getting that from? You should provide a source, and the direct quote for that matter, when you claim that people said something otherwise you are just posting hearsay... again. I would also take anything said about physical media from a Kaleidescape representative with a pound of salt as they have an obvious bias on the subject and an extremely expensive download service to promote.

https://www.highdefdigest.com/news/s...shootout/44282

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by The_Donster

Yes, but to be fair. You can only comment on streaming in your region. Otherwise you are relying on second hand news as a basis on why it’s worse than physical

Not really, unless you are telling me a regional difference exists between Apple’s 4K transfers and the US versions? I know we don’t have Vudu but ITunes 4K is considered better by many. I have access to Netflix at 4K also. I’m not saying the picture quality isn’t good, but it’s no match for Blu-ray and it’s 4K equivalent in the picture AND audio department. I’m not buying the argument that Vudu is considerably better than the services I mentioned.

[sapiendut]

Itunes UHD movie bitrate is running at 30 mbps max whereas netflix etc are at 15mbps (if I remember correctly). On the other hand, physical UHD runs between (approx) 60-100 mbps. Forget about bitrate for the moment, the oroof is in the AV results, phyiscal is heads and shoulder better than even ATV 4K.

[avs commenter]

An audio file on a CD was around 1411 kbps. Compared to an MP3 of around 256 kbps. Compression can be pretty damn impressive.

[sapiendut]

LOL. If it is a lossless compression bring it on, Even 320 kbps MP3 and WAV is a huge difference in sound quality especially in complex recordings such as orchestral tracks.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by avs commenter

An audio file on a CD was around 1411 kbps. Compared to an MP3 of around 256 kbps. Compression can be pretty damn impressive.

Played on rubbish equipment, I would agree. It gets shown up on a HQ system though.

[Wendell R. Breland]

For those that have an interest in the new Spears & Munsil UHD/4K test disc:

Originally Posted by Scenic Labs

At launch there is distribution in USA, Canada, UK, France, Germany, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, Belgium and Japan, and China.

I hope that one of these serves your area. If not, please let me know.

[Wendell R. Breland]

Originally Posted by Vilya

The only news article that I found about any "shootout" stated that Sony's XBR 65A9G OLED TV won Value Electronic's 15th annual shootout. This TV sells for $3799.99 at Best Buy; stock up here:

No surprise in this win, would be interesting to see how it stacks up against the Sony BVM-HX310 (an apple vs orange).

Some may find the Vincent T comments on the older 300 interesting:

The Most BEAUTIFUL Picture Quality I've Ever Seen!!! - YouTube

[avs commenter]

Scores from 'Shootout'

If you compare 'Reference HDR' (4k disc) scores with 'Streaming'. The Reference scores are higher but not by a lot.

https://www.soundandvision.com/conte...-2019-shootout

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by avs commenter

Scores from 'Shootout'

If you compare 'Reference HDR' (4k disc) scores with 'Streaming'. The Reference scores are higher but not by a lot.

https://www.soundandvision.com/conte...-2019-shootout

The HDR reference score for motion resolution on the winning TV, the Sony XBR-65A9G, was much higher, 9.5, than the streaming score which was only 7.88. That's a difference of 20.6% in favor of the HDR reference mode.

HDR reference score for dynamic range was 8.88 versus the streaming score of 8.13 which is 9% better.

Color saturation was 8.75 in HDR reference mode versus the streaming score of 8.38 which is 4.4% better.

Oddly, the streaming score only beat, just barely, the color accuracy score for HDR reference. Streaming score was 8.88 while HDR reference mode was 8.75 which is 1.5% better.

Better motion resolution for the HDR reference mode, by 20.6%, is a pretty substantial difference. Even the 9% advantage that HDR reference had in dynamic range is significant.

[sapiendut]

And motion. That 20% difference is huge.

Unless you watch static image while streaming

[avs commenter]

Yes, the motion score was the outlier, and not surprising. Comparing the rest of the scores for the top 2 sets though were pretty close. And seeing higher color accuracy scores for streaming was interesting...

[sapiendut]

Colour is colour, both are compressed in the same manner, nothing surprising there. Streaming colour accuracy is negligible, due to the subjective manner of the colour accuracy scoring, the differences like that it to be expected.

[octagon]

Originally Posted by sapiendut

And motion. That 20% difference is huge.

I don't really have a dog in this fight so I'm just playing Devil's Advocate but is a 20% difference necessarily huge?

The distinctions between a four star presentation and a five star presentation can get pretty subtle sometimes. I have no idea if this is one of those cases or not but I also don't know if one can just look at two numbers and draw any real conclusions about the practical differences between a 7.88 motion resolution score and a 9.5 motion resolution score.