Star Wars Wars the UOT Strikes Back and OTHER PEZ dispensers

[bboisvert]

Originally Posted by oat-a-bix

I'm sure George Lucas said himself that when the first game was released that The Force Unleashed is in fact canon however.

There are differing levels of "canon" in the SW universe. It's never black and white:
http://www.wired.com/entertainment/h...urrentPage=all

[motorheadache95]

Originally Posted by Shaft Windu

Officers and Commanders are human recruits - Troopers are clones!

I always pretty much figured that the stormtroopers are likely a combination of clones and recruits. The stormtroopers don't seem to be clones in the original movie-- they all have different voices, and they aren't focused like the troopers in the prequels-- they get distracted and have conversations about things outside their jobs-- doesn't seem like clones to me.

And for the people disregarding the expanded universe-- while you are correct that the expanded universe doesn't necessarily "count," it's still handy for filling in certain details that aren't really covered in the films themselves one way or another, such as this whole clone discussion. But yeah, Lucas doesn't mind the expanded universe, but doesn't necessarily regard it either-- seeing the expanded universe writers attempt to reconcile the backstory of Boba Fett was fairly amusing.

[wormraper]

Originally Posted by motorheadache95

I always pretty much figured that the stormtroopers are likely a combination of clones and recruits. The stormtroopers don't seem to be clones in the original movie-- they all have different voices, and they aren't focused like the troopers in the prequels-- they get distracted and have conversations about things outside their jobs-- doesn't seem like clones to me.

And for the people disregarding the expanded universe-- while you are correct that the expanded universe doesn't necessarily "count," it's still handy for filling in certain details that aren't really covered in the films themselves one way or another, such as this whole clone discussion. But yeah, Lucas doesn't mind the expanded universe, but doesn't necessarily regard it either-- seeing the expanded universe writers attempt to reconcile the backstory of Boba Fett was fairly amusing.

but didn't you know, that was all because lucas couldn't get his original vision in the original films

[Mr. Movie Fan]

It's canon that the troops by the time of the Original Trilogy were mostly recruits.

[Shaft Windu]

Originally Posted by Fanboyz

It's canon that the troops by the time of the Original Trilogy were mostly recruits.

But they are not. It's explained in Episode II and movie beats expanded universe. It was introduced that the Republic / Imperial army consist of clones and it was not changed along the way. It would weaken the Empire if Stormtroopers had minds of their own. They are just a recource like the Droids of the Seperatists. Why would someone sign up to be a stormtrooper? By the time of A New Hope whre the Empire is at its peak there are propably hundreds of clone-factories across the universe. That appears to be much more reasonable and believable to me.

[chip75]

Originally Posted by Shaft Windu

Why would someone sign up to be a stormtrooper? By the time of A New Hope whre the Empire is at its peak there are propably hundreds of clone-factories across the universe. That appears to be much more reasonable and believable to me.

To me at least the Emperor needed the clones to fulfill his Order 66 plan so he had them hardwired for his purposes, after that when the clones were too old he would be able to have men from the galaxy enlist in a National Service/Draft type of deal. Even Biggs signed up.

In the beginning of the Palpatines reign the people didn't know he was the bad guy and could ellict sympathy from the Jedi's betrayal. If there were still clone factories in existence I'm sure Palpatine would have had them destroyed to prevent a counter army been formed by the rebels (and to silence the clone makers who were complicit in the Order 66).

[phatrat1982]

Originally Posted by Shaft Windu

But they are not. It's explained in Episode II and movie beats expanded universe. It was introduced that the Republic / Imperial army consist of clones and it was not changed along the way. It would weaken the Empire if Stormtroopers had minds of their own. They are just a recource like the Droids of the Seperatists. Why would someone sign up to be a stormtrooper? By the time of A New Hope whre the Empire is at its peak there are propably hundreds of clone-factories across the universe. That appears to be much more reasonable and believable to me.

In the novel of Star Wars Luke talks to Biggs about joining up to be in the imperial army but then plan to jump ship and join the rebellion. Han used to be an imperial trooper also he sure as hell is not a clone. Not only the EE makes it clear that the clones are no longer used but if clones were still being used then there would be no distinction about "clone wars" because it would be the SAME war. That is NOT the case, Obi Wan made it clear he was talking about a different war, called the clone wars. The Rebellion against the Empire is not just the same clone war still going on the Clone Wars was Republic against Separatist. Once the Clone Ware ended Palpatine closed down the clone facilities and resorted to recruiting, often by force or drafting soldiers. This fits in perfectly with the attitude everyone had towards the empire.


If the clones were still being used and the fight never stopped then the Rebellion against the Empire would not be a separate conflict it would still be the Clone Wars.

Yeah it would be much easier for Palpatine to control everyone by drafting their sons and daughters to fight and make them involved in the conflict. If all he did was kept cloning the troopers it would not fit in with his control of everyone. Also everyone not in a trooper uniform is clearly different individuals however during the clone wars the imperial naval officers were all still clones, look at the crew at the end of Revenge of the Sith, all clones, now look at the crew of the Executor, NOT clones.

[motorheadache95]

Originally Posted by wormraper

but didn't you know, that was all because lucas couldn't get his original vision in the original films

Oh, of course. Everybody knows that

Actually, I was almost surprised that Lucas didn't have Temuera Morrison redub all of the stormtrooper voices along with Boba Fett on the DVD release.

[Falaskan]

That would've been the end of him (Lucas).

[Shaft Windu]

Originally Posted by phatrat1982

In the novel of Star Wars Luke talks to Biggs about joining up to be in the imperial army but then plan to jump ship and join the rebellion. Han used to be an imperial trooper also he sure as hell is not a clone. Not only the EE makes it clear that the clones are no longer used but if clones were still being used then there would be no distinction about "clone wars" because it would be the SAME war. That is NOT the case, Obi Wan made it clear he was talking about a different war, called the clone wars. The Rebellion against the Empire is not just the same clone war still going on the Clone Wars was Republic against Separatist. Once the Clone Ware ended Palpatine closed down the clone facilities and resorted to recruiting, often by force or drafting soldiers. This fits in perfectly with the attitude everyone had towards the empire.


If the clones were still being used and the fight never stopped then the Rebellion against the Empire would not be a separate conflict it would still be the Clone Wars.

Yeah it would be much easier for Palpatine to control everyone by drafting their sons and daughters to fight and make them involved in the conflict. If all he did was kept cloning the troopers it would not fit in with his control of everyone. Also everyone not in a trooper uniform is clearly different individuals however during the clone wars the imperial naval officers were all still clones, look at the crew at the end of Revenge of the Sith, all clones, now look at the crew of the Executor, NOT clones.

Nobody said that the Empire would only use Clones! There must be thousands of officers, technicians, admirals, commanders, Grand Moffs and so on. I'm just totally convinced that the Stormtroopers are still clones.

Leia said "Aren't you a little short for a stormtrooper?" to Luke. Why? Because Stormtroopers are all exactly the same size!

That Stormtroopers are Clones is a much more exciting idea opposed to just being recruits like the rebels! It's all about contrast: Individuals with courage and valor against Clones with no free will that just do as they told opens up a much wider range!

[Shaft Windu]

Originally Posted by motorheadache95

Oh, of course. Everybody knows that

Actually, I was almost surprised that Lucas didn't have Temuera Morrison redub all of the stormtrooper voices along with Boba Fett on the DVD release.

That would be great!

[adywan]

Originally Posted by Shaft Windu

Nobody said that the Empire would only use Clones! There must be thousands of officers, technicians, admirals, commanders, Grand Moffs and so on. I'm just totally convinced that the Stormtroopers are still clones.

Leia said "Aren't you a little short for a stormtrooper?" to Luke. Why? Because Stormtroopers are all exactly the same size!

That Stormtroopers are Clones is a much more exciting idea opposed to just being recruits like the rebels! It's all about contrast: Individuals with courage and valor against Clones with no free will that just do as they told opens up a much wider range!

So basically, you just like to make things up to serve as your view of the movies, even though official canon states that the stormtoopers were not all clones by the time of ANH and in fact many who were not to be used for clone templates were recruited through the Academy as individuals. George would have had to approve this so are you saying that he got it wrong?

[Cook]

Originally Posted by Shaft Windu

Nobody said that the Empire would only use Clones! There must be thousands of officers, technicians, admirals, commanders, Grand Moffs and so on. I'm just totally convinced that the Stormtroopers are still clones.

Leia said "Aren't you a little short for a stormtrooper?" to Luke. Why? Because Stormtroopers are all exactly the same size!

That Stormtroopers are Clones is a much more exciting idea opposed to just being recruits like the rebels! It's all about contrast: Individuals with courage and valor against Clones with no free will that just do as they told opens up a much wider range!

You can believe what you want to, but it is accepted canon that Palpatine began allowing natural born recruits to be srormtroopers to swell the ranks. He also used different strains of DNA besides Jango Fett. After the Battle of Kamino, the 501st became the last remnant of the Grand Army of the Republic fully composed of Jango Fett clones, as opposed to the ever-growing and more diverse Stormtrooper Corps, where the Fett clones became a minority with the inclusion of a pool of clones from different templates and birth-born recruits. Also, did you know Daine Jir who tells Darth Vader on the the Tantive 4 at the begining of A New Hope that holding Leia was dangerous is a retired member of the 501st. He was a natural born non clone member. The people at Lucasfilm have approved this as canon, and anything else is pure fan fiction. You should do some research. This universe is now bigger than the films and there are lots of cool info about background characters.

[Mr. Movie Fan]

Yes in canon Storm Troopers are a mix of recruits and clones. Mind you every Alliance pilot you see (yes even Biggs) were trained at the Imperial Naval academy, and most were Tie Pilots before they defected.
Also the Death Star troopers in the detention center were all once stormtroopers who managed to live long enough to get promoted.

[Indyjones]

Originally Posted by motorheadache95

Oh, of course. Everybody knows that

Actually, I was almost surprised that Lucas didn't have Temuera Morrison redub all of the stormtrooper voices along with Boba Fett on the DVD release.

He probably didn't because by that timeframe (ANH), the stormtroopers aren't clones. Jango's DNA had been exhausted by then.

(In my best Nick Nolte voice) Awwwww hell! Nevermind, it's been covered already. Maybe I should read prior posts!

[AlexSing]

This thread makes Baby Leia cry

[beanham22]

Originally Posted by georgec

Agreed. Lucas doesn't get respect from people who owe him a great deal for their enjoyment of the movies. If you ask me the prequels, under Lucas' definitive creative control, tell a more visually appealing, interesting story than the OT. There are so many characters and details in the prequels, I can't even keep track LOL. Each time I watch those movies I discover something new.

People loving taking credit from Lucas and giving it to Gary Kurtz, Marcia Lucas, Irvin Kershner, etc., but George is the one that created SW and brought all those people together. Without his vision and executive decisions those other people wouldn't have known what to do. Lucas' storytelling improved enough during the years that he didn't need anybody helping out for the prequels - he knew and planned exactly what he wanted to do, and it worked out brilliantly.

While I am not one to bash Lucas a legion of fans, critics, and media would disagree with you.

[Objectivity]

Originally Posted by georgec

People loving taking credit from Lucas and giving it to Gary Kurtz, Marcia Lucas, Irvin Kershner, etc., but George is the one that created SW and brought all those people together. Without his vision and executive decisions those other people wouldn't have known what to do. Lucas' storytelling improved enough during the years that he didn't need anybody helping out for the prequels - he knew and planned exactly what he wanted to do, and it worked out brilliantly.

He had a great idea and it did better than anything that preceded it. He then had to invent a world around it and needed help. Empire and Jedi had co-writers and it showed and they're both excellent films.

The prequels have all the ideas there to be equally excellent, but it needed someone to breathe real life into the fantastical settings... and I say this as someone who liked the romance in AOTC.

The truth is that most of this was invented after the fact. At first, Lucas said it was stand alone. Then, if you read the novelization of Star Wars, Lucas talks about there being 12 movies. Then he said nine. Then he said six.

He created the world and combined old standards in new ways. It was familiar and refreshing at the same time. There's nothing wrong with admitting a weakness instead of insisting that everyone think that everything you do is perfect.

[Cowboy]

Originally Posted by georgec

Agreed. Lucas doesn't get respect from people who owe him a great deal for their enjoyment of the movies. If you ask me the prequels, under Lucas' definitive creative control, tell a more visually appealing, interesting story than the OT. There are so many characters and details in the prequels, I can't even keep track LOL. Each time I watch those movies I discover something new.

People loving taking credit from Lucas and giving it to Gary Kurtz, Marcia Lucas, Irvin Kershner, etc., but George is the one that created SW and brought all those people together. Without his vision and executive decisions those other people wouldn't have known what to do. Lucas' storytelling improved enough during the years that he didn't need anybody helping out for the prequels - he knew and planned exactly what he wanted to do, and it worked out brilliantly.

Well at least you are in the minority on that opinion with regards to the PT so I wont even go into that. Lucas is a so so director and he has even admitted that he had a real dislike for that role. Yes Lucas thought up and told a wonderful story (was a great story teller) but Kurtz reigned Lucas in on several occasions and steered him in the right direction several times, in fact I dare say that ROTJ would have benefited greatly if Kurtz had been on the set for that one. Marcia Lucas won an academy award for editing.....so I think she did a pretty good job in that department, in fact ATOC sure could have used her on that dreadful film.

I think one poster said it best awhile back...Star Wars fans perfer the PT while fans of good film in general prefer the UOT (SW & TESB). I think I would have to agree with him or at least that has been my observation so far.

[georgec]

Has nobody read my signature? I'm not a big-time poster on here, but I was vocal enough to be suspended for a day last week. Here are some posts prior to my suspension:

Pointed out faults of PT and Lucas' abilities as a "filmmaker"
Mock opening crawl that was deleted then moved to other thread because it's too inappropriate
Reiterated Lucas' dependence on more talented filmmakers, editors, producers, etc.
Linked interview where Spielberg even says it's wrong to take movies out of the period in which they were made, since that is a part of their charm and longetivity
best one, imo --> Summary critique of Lucas

Here are some posts after my suspension, showing my new devotion to the infallible creator, George Lucas:

Compared SW home video releases to moon landings
Praised Dexter Jettster and suggested Lucas remake OT
Said green lightsaber in ANH dvd was a meaningful creative decision
Said editing in Vader in ESB during Falcon escape from CC improved pacing, and that I'd buy another release if Lucas makes more changes
Said blu-ray of OT should feel like new movies with remixed audio and modified visuals
Claimed Lucas' contradictions about the saga were a part of his master plan; compared him to Picasso and da Vinci
Claimed the prequels tell a better story than the OT because Lucas had complete control

Now before I'm accused of trolling, let me explain something - my faux posts post-suspension are way over the top and irrationally in support of Lucas. I thought the repetitive "LOL" endings to my posts might give me away. I got some bites from the unwavering pro-Lucas crowd, but more importantly the mods didn't mind my completely inaccurate boasting of Lucas' accomplishments and history.

Yet, I was suspended (with some other posters) for rationally pointing out how Lucas is not an unquestionable creative genius and he has benefited largely from creative people, of whom he later disposed. It makes you wonder about free speech and openness. I'm no freedom fighter and do not wish to cause any consternation, but I think I've demonstrated that mindless, childish, excessive, and inaccurate comments in favor of Lucas can pass.

This debate will go on after the blu-rays come out in September. It's sad how divisive this whole topic is, but everyone here does genuinely enjoy at least a portion of Star Wars, be it UOT, prequels, or what have you. That's perfectly alright and people can enjoy the movies in any way they want. We've discussed all the reasons Lucas hasn't released the UOT (bitterness over divorce with Marcia, fulfilling "original" vision, etc.).

Generally speaking the older crowd prefers the UOT and the younger crowd prefers the prequels and revised OT. As Cowboy said people who are broader fans of "film" also prefer the UOT. Draw your own conclusions.