Star Wars Wars the UOT Strikes Back and OTHER PEZ dispensers

[Cook]

Originally Posted by Cowboy

Well at least you are in the minority on that opinion with regards to the PT so I wont even go into that. Lucas is a so so director and he has even admitted that he had a real dislike for that role. Yes Lucas thought up and told a wonderful story (was a great story teller) but Kurtz reigned Lucas in on several occasions and steered him in the right direction several times, in fact I dare say that ROTJ would have benefited greatly if Kurtz had been on the set for that one. Marcia Lucas won an academy award for editing.....so I think she did a pretty good job in that department, in fact ATOC sure could have used her on that dreadful film.

I think one poster said it best awhile back...Star Wars fans perfer the PT while fans of good film in general prefer the UOT (SW & TESB). I think I would have to agree with him or at least that has been my observation so far.

This is my take. I like one thing or another in all 6 films. However, for me only ANH and ESB rank as good filmaking. The other four films are so-so with good parts here and there. They were a big part of my childhood, but I'm not going to ignore the flaws of these films because of a little nostalgia. Films 1,2,3,6 will never be in my top ten films. I understand the love people have for these films, because I share that love. What I cant figure out is how some can rank films 1,2,3,6 as great filmaking. I've just never been able to wrap my head around that. They are fun films, but not classics and lightyears away from flawless. Before anyone labels this as bashing let me say that this is simply my opinion and critique. I will not change it nor reconsider it. To do so would make me a hypocrite . I do not let other directors get away with these kind of mistakes and I'm not going to let Lucas do so. I do not have a blind eye for him. He gets judged like everyone else.

[NexusVerbal]

Originally Posted by georgec

If you ask me the prequels, under Lucas' definitive creative control, tell a more visually appealing, interesting story than the OT.

You're kidding, right? Maybe this can be said about Revenge of the Sith, but this cannot be said for the Prequels as a whole.

You mean to tell me a trilogy dealing in politics is more interesting than a trilogy dealing in high adventure driven by not just more likeable and genuine characters, but also by more heart wrenching and intense story arcs?

Dear God.

[georgec]

Originally Posted by NexusVerbal

You're kidding, right? Maybe this can be said about Revenge of the Sith, but this cannot be said for the Prequels as a whole.

You mean to tell me a trilogy dealing in politics is more interesting than a trilogy dealing in high adventure driven by not just more likeable and genuine characters, but also by more heart wrenching and intense story arcs?

Dear God.

I'm still getting bites after I revealed myself!

(look a few posts above)

[Sith]

Originally Posted by NexusVerbal

You're kidding, right? Maybe this can be said about Revenge of the Sith, but this cannot be said for the Prequels as a whole.

You mean to tell me a trilogy dealing in politics is more interesting than a trilogy dealing in high adventure driven by not just more likeable and genuine characters, but also by more heart wrenching and intense story arcs?

Dear God.

The story of the OT is basically just about the Skywalker family, while the PT is about all the Jedi vs. the Sith. While I personally still prefer the original trilogy, the prequel does have more story unfolding at times.

[greg_achen]

This thread has gotten weird. I suspect there will be a mod cleaning in the not too distant future.

[Guitar Joe]

Originally Posted by georgec

I'm still getting bites after I revealed myself!

(look a few posts above)

Haha, I love the interwebs!

[aiman04]

Originally Posted by greg_achen

This thread has gotten weird. I suspect there will be a mod cleaning in the not too distant future.

Someone has gone to the dark side, and then redeemed himself, or is it the other way around? Depends on your point of view of course.

[JasonWard]

Originally Posted by Shaft Windu

Nobody said that the Empire would only use Clones! There must be thousands of officers, technicians, admirals, commanders, Grand Moffs and so on. I'm just totally convinced that the Stormtroopers are still clones.

Leia said "Aren't you a little short for a stormtrooper?" to Luke. Why? Because Stormtroopers are all exactly the same size!

That Stormtroopers are Clones is a much more exciting idea opposed to just being recruits like the rebels! It's all about contrast: Individuals with courage and valor against Clones with no free will that just do as they told opens up a much wider range!

I think the larger idea is that Stormtroopers are mainly clones. But until the live action series really irons out what's going on, its left a little ambiguous. I don't think its worth writing themselves into a corner. That said, Lucas has only commented on those in power having themselves and loved ones cloned out of vanity. He never actually stated that individuals became Stormtroopers and that whole system, as I said, has been left ambiguous for now. So go with whatever fantasy works best for you.

Your interpretation of free-willed rebels fighting clones that lack freewill is problematic when held up to Lucas' vision of Star Wars. In The Clone Wars, entire story arcs are spent on Jedi letting these clones knows that they are people and they have individuality and free will to do the right thing. My theory is that he is setting up the show to have Order 66 show have clones that follow the rules and clones that rebel and do not take orders.

In the season three opener of The Clone Wars, we learn that the clone DNA template is being stretched thin and that alludes to the idea that just before the events of Revenge of the Sith, Jango-clones cease production. This is probably because Temeura Morrison won't be or may not be involved with the Live Action Series so the idea is that other templates will start being used soon, but they aren't ready for battle until after Revenge of the Sith.

[Shaft Windu]

Originally Posted by adywan

So basically, you just like to make things up to serve as your view of the movies, even though official canon states that the stormtoopers were not all clones by the time of ANH and in fact many who were not to be used for clone templates were recruited through the Academy as individuals. George would have had to approve this so are you saying that he got it wrong?

Don't be completely ridiculous please! He didn't get it "wrong" - he let the authors take certain libertys as long as the origin of the Stormtroopers was not definite. As he made the prequels every idea that would benefit the Saga was on the table again with NO regard to the Expanded Universe. To me only the movies count as a source of information. I don't care AT ALL for Star Wars novels or video games. If you care for Star Wars read books by Joseph Campbell, C.G. Jung, William Shakespeare, read myths from around the world, watch Kurosawa Movies, Buster Keaton, Gunga Din, Flash Gordon and Buck Rogers Serials, books on Art and History - THAT'S where you'll find Star Wars!

[Shaft Windu]

Originally Posted by mrpink134

I have grown up watching Star Wars and I love the OT and really like ROTS, TPM was ew ok and the AOTC was a joke! What gets me is how many times GL has contradicted himself over the years, he thinks us fans are stupid and don't remember what he said in the past. I remember when he stated the OT was about Luke and his rise to become a Jedi and hero, the only reason why he changed his mind to Vader was because it was his cash cow. That was a insult to every kid who watched the movies when they first came out. Don't say that we should stop bashing GL he deserves everything he gets.

How is that a contradiction? The OT is still about Luke discovering his destiny - the PT and to a certain extend the Complete Saga is about Anakin Skywalkers rise, fall and redemtion. If anything the 2 Trilogys benefit from each other. You just have to let go of your fear of new ideas and a new point of view!

[shelldweller]

Originally Posted by Shaft Windu

Don't be completely ridiculous please! He didn't get it "wrong" - he let the authors take certain libertys as long as the origin of the Stormtroopers was not definite. As he made the prequels every idea that would benefit the Saga was on the table again with NO regard to the Expanded Universe. To me only the movies count as a source of information. I don't care AT ALL for Star Wars novels or video games. If you care for Star Wars read books by Joseph Campbell, C.G. Jung, William Shakespeare, read myths from around the world, watch Kurosawa Movies, Buster Keaton, Gunga Din, Flash Gordon and Buck Rogers Serials, books on Art and History - THAT'S where you'll find Star Wars!

Exactly! I can not agree more ...

[Wanze]

Originally Posted by Shaft Windu

Don't be completely ridiculous please! He didn't get it "wrong" - he let the authors take certain libertys as long as the origin of the Stormtroopers was not definite. As he made the prequels every idea that would benefit the Saga was on the table again with NO regard to the Expanded Universe. To me only the movies count as a source of information. I don't care AT ALL for Star Wars novels or video games. If you care for Star Wars read books by Joseph Campbell, C.G. Jung, William Shakespeare, read myths from around the world, watch Kurosawa Movies, Buster Keaton, Gunga Din, Flash Gordon and Buck Rogers Serials, books on Art and History - THAT'S where you'll find Star Wars!

Thats right. Star wars is everywhere. Even in the Grimms Tales. So Long.....

[Roonan]

Originally Posted by NexusVerbal

You're kidding, right? Maybe this can be said about Revenge of the Sith, but this cannot be said for the Prequels as a whole.

Why? Because you say so? Who are you and who made you king?

[Dynamo of Eternia]

Originally Posted by georgec

Now before I'm accused of trolling, let me explain something - my faux posts post-suspension are way over the top and irrationally in support of Lucas. I thought the repetitive "LOL" endings to my posts might give me away. I got some bites from the unwavering pro-Lucas crowd, but more importantly the mods didn't mind my completely inaccurate boasting of Lucas' accomplishments and history.

Yet, I was suspended (with some other posters) for rationally pointing out how Lucas is not an unquestionable creative genius and he has benefited largely from creative people, of whom he later disposed. It makes you wonder about free speech and openness. I'm no freedom fighter and do not wish to cause any consternation, but I think I've demonstrated that mindless, childish, excessive, and inaccurate comments in favor of Lucas can pass.

This debate will go on after the blu-rays come out in September. It's sad how divisive this whole topic is, but everyone here does genuinely enjoy at least a portion of Star Wars, be it UOT, prequels, or what have you. That's perfectly alright and people can enjoy the movies in any way they want. We've discussed all the reasons Lucas hasn't released the UOT (bitterness over divorce with Marcia, fulfilling "original" vision, etc.).

Generally speaking the older crowd prefers the UOT and the younger crowd prefers the prequels and revised OT. As Cowboy said people who are broader fans of "film" also prefer the UOT. Draw your own conclusions.

You probably got suspended not so much because of what your opinion happens to be, but for off-topic conversation.

Many people from both sides of this arguement have been suspended as a result of this sort of thing (I was briefly at one point, myself).

This thread is meant to be about the Blu-Ray release. So, for example, it is on topic to be concerned about the problematic 2004 transfers of the OT being used for the Blu-Ray release (since many of the images that we've seen so far related to the promotion of the BD set indicate tha being the case). However, to go to deep into the issue of Lucas not releasing the UOT, etc, is technically off-topic, and there is another Star Wars thread in the movies section of this message board where that sort of thing can be discussed.

It is a slipperly sloap, no doubt about it. It's hard to talk about one concern or problem that is related to the BD release and not get into some of the other issues that are technically off-topic. But the point is that you likely weren't suspended simply because of what your opinon was... but rather the fact that it was off-topic with the thread.

I think you are reading too deeply into the reasons for your suspension.

Originally Posted by kurtlingle

+ 1,000,000.

I just love the whole series (all 6) and am glad to see the whole story.
Can't wait for this on blu-ray!

I hope you realize that he was being completely sarcastic in the post that you just quoted. He even specifically said as much just a few posts later.

[Dynamo of Eternia]

Originally Posted by Roonan

Whether you're being sarcastic or not, that's true. When it's about giving praise, Lucas gets none. When it's about blaming someone, it's all Lucas. Very fallacious and unfair, if you ask me. But then again, it's a typical basher behaviour. And they are called bashers for some reason.

I don't think that's quite accurate.

I think most everyone, regardless of which 'side' of this arguement they fall on, more than recognizes how important Lucas is to Star Wars existing at all, and for us ever having the OT in any form.

That being said, the problem here is that those who overly praise Lucas seem to have a hard time recognizing that film is often a very colaborative medium, and Star Wars is no exception to that. And these other people would very important in the OT turning out the way that it origianlly did.

Lucas didn've have those same people helping him out with the PT. For the most part he had an entirely new crew, and by that time his status was such that most people probably wouldn't question him or challenge his ideas the same way that those who worked with him during the time of the OT before he got this 'legendary' status would have.

Of course Lucas is important to Star Wars and he deserves plenty of credit for what he originally accomplished with it. It's just that he doesn't deserve ALL of the credit, and there are others who are often over looked and ignored who were important to the OT turning out the way that it did.

[shelldweller]

Originally Posted by aiman04

It will be the same for Red Tails. If it's good, it's because Lucas didn't write or direct. If it's bad, it's all because of him.

That sums it up pretty good, sadly. It was the same with Indy IV. I have no idea what Lucas did to deserve this... What´s going on in this forum alone is ridiculous.

[Roonan]

Originally Posted by Dynamo of Eternia

That being said, the problem here is that those who overly praise Lucas seem to have a hard time recognizing that film is often a very colaborative medium, and Star Wars is no exception to that.

That's not accurate either. That's only one side of the coin. The other is the one I've mentioned. Of course we are talking about extremes, both present in this thread.

Originally Posted by shelldweller

What´s going on in this forum alone is ridiculous.

No, not this forum alone.

[shelldweller]

Originally Posted by Roonan

No, not this forum alone.

I know... even more sad.

[Dynamo of Eternia]

Originally Posted by Roonan

That's not accurate either. That's only one side of the coin. The other is the one I've mentioned. Of course we are talking about extremes, both present in this thread.

Just because someone complaining about what Lucas has done doesn't stop to write out a disclaimer in each and every post about his importance to Star Wars doesn't mean that they don't recognize it. It's just not relevant to bring up repeatedly in the mists of the arguement to make the point that they are trying to make.

[Roonan]

Originally Posted by Dynamo of Eternia

Just because someone complaining about what Lucas has done doesn't stop to write out a disclaimer in each and every post about his importance to Star Wars doesn't mean that they don't recognize it. It's just not relevant to bring up repeatedly in the mists of the arguement to make the point that they are trying to make.

Same can be said about those who "overly praise" him.