Physical & Digital EST: The Future of Home Video Discussion Thread

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by Steedeel

I didn’t say it was ok. There is no choice. VR mostly sells digital games. VR is my main gaming priority. I was forced, there is no choice. Much in the same way I would be forced to use digital lest I cannot experience films on a projector or large tv screen. Given the choice, I would want a world of discs for every format and art form that requires it.

There's always a choice. Saying "no" was one of them. Instead, you just made the easy choice. You have been willingly assimilated into the digital world.

The difference is that you criticize the easy choice that others have made while rationalizing your own.

[PenguinInfinity]

Originally Posted by RefractiveIndex

Many modern video games are large software platforms that are constantly being updated with additional content and features by developers. Owning a physical copy of a game is kind of pointless because over time the code and data can undergo enormous changes and additions that make it completely incompatible with the contents on the physical disk..

I have hundreds of games on disc. I have never downloaded any patches or updates for any of them. I don't buy games that require downloads of any kind.

The contents of each game disc will continue to work perfectly for many decades just like the contents of each movie disc.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by PenguinInfinity

No, I wouldn't watch any films anywhere. I'd make do with the hundreds of thousands of movies and TV shows that have already been released on disc.

I’m not sure I believe you. As a passionate, life long film fanatic, I couldn’t do without.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by Vilya

There's always a choice. Saying "no" was one of them. Instead, you just made the easy choice. You have been willingly assimilated into the digital world.

The difference is that you criticize the easy choice that others have made while rationalizing your own.

I am in a digital world just using this forum. Daft argument.

[RefractiveIndex]

Originally Posted by PenguinInfinity

I have hundreds of games on disc. I have never downloaded any patches or updates for any of them. I don't buy games that require downloads of any kind.

The contents of each game disc will continue to work perfectly for many decades just like the contents of each movie disc.

That's fine if you like small console games, but if you like online service games or game on PC(the only place to get the best graphics and sound and the best games in general) then your strategy doesn't work.

[PenguinInfinity]

Originally Posted by Steedeel

I’m not sure I believe you. As a passionate, life long film fanatic, I couldn’t do without.

Even if disc production stopped and no more discs were ever made there is no chance I'd ever run out of things to watch on disc. There are thousands of movies and TV shows I haven't seen yet and thousands of movies and TV shows I can watch again. The vast majority of them will remain in circulation on the used market long after I'm dead. I never have to worry about anything becoming unavailable.

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by RefractiveIndex

Video games aren't like movies, they are computer programs just like a word processor or an internet browser. Do you need a physical copy of your word processor or internet browser?

Many modern video games are large software platforms that are constantly being updated with additional content and features by developers. Owning a physical copy of a game is kind of pointless because over time the code and data can undergo enormous changes and additions that make it completely incompatible with the contents on the physical disk. Furthermore, if you're a PC gamer the vast majority of games never receive a physical copy anyway and when there is a physical copy it's little more than code in a box that gives you access to a digital download. The code is a one time use making it impossible to sell the game like you can with a physical copy of a film. It's also common to digitally sign a EULA(End user license agreement) when you install a game regardless of it being installed from a disc or digital download.

I don't believe it's hypocritical to be pro physical copies of films and pro digital copies of games as they are completely different animals. Films are more akin to books than games. If you want to draw an analogy between films and gaming it would make more sense to compare games stored locally on the gamer's system(regardless of being installed from a disc or downloaded) and gaming streaming services like Geforce NOW and Google Stadia where the graphics and game logic is processed on a server and a video capture of the rendered graphics are streamed back to the client. With a gaming streaming service, the client only responsibility is to capture user input and send it to the server.

I understand the reasons supporting the digital distribution of games. All but one of my games are full downloads that require no internet connection to play; they are eligible for online updates, but there is no internet validation or connection required to play them once installed. Most can be uninstalled and reinstalled all I please without any online authentication needed.

I only have one game that requires a constant internet connection to play. It, and the vast majority of my games, were gifts from my friends working in various computer fields.

Still, I bought some of them and I recognize my own hypocrisy here. I just find it funny that Steedeel does not see his hypocrisy at all considering that he is so judgmental about those who choose to purchase digital movies. They're killing all he holds dear, but he is some victim with no choice at all but to buy digital games. Please... it's just rationalization and nothing more.

[RefractiveIndex]

Originally Posted by PenguinInfinity

Just saying games in general are not like movies is not accurate. There are plenty of games that are complete on disc just like movies. This is especially true since Steedeel specifically mentioned single-player games. He made a choice to support the games that are not available physically while rallying against people who have supported movies that are not available physically. That's what makes him a hypocrite.

Even those single-player story games can be shipped broken and buggy and require an online update to fix them. Additional content is often produced and only available online for these games as well that you will never experience from a disc. Linear single player games aren't exactly produced in large number anymore either. You are limiting yourself to an extremely small subset of available games by only playing those.

It's not hypocritical to support games that are not available physically as the reasons for those games only being available digitally are very different to that of films.

[RefractiveIndex]

Originally Posted by Vilya

Still, I bought some of them and I recognize my own hypocrisy here. I just find it funny that Steedeel does not see his hypocrisy at all considering that he is so judgmental about those who choose to purchase digital movies. They're killing all he holds dear, but he is some victim with no choice at all but to buy digital games. Please... it's just rationalization and nothing more.

Yeah, I think he should give the judging others thing a rest and then he can get away with whatever he likes.

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by PenguinInfinity

I guess I'm the only one here who actually follows my principles on every art form.

I follow my principles; they just aren't as restrictive as yours.

Coincidentally, I have not bought any digitally distributed games in over four years. Most games that I receive are gifts from my friends. I am not about to be rude and refuse their gift and lecture them about physical media in the same breath. I thank them politely for their generosity instead of picking a fight with them. Seems like the right thing to do. Most of these gifted games have never even been launched although I have installed them all.

[RefractiveIndex]

Originally Posted by PenguinInfinity

Games don't have more major bugs now then they did before patches and updates were available. I've actually encountered far less bugs on PS4 then I did on previous consoles.



Anytime someone only supports physical media they are limiting themselves to a small subset. There are thousands of video games, movies, TV shows, books, and albums that are only available digitally. I choose to ignore all of them. Steedeel has chosen to ignore digital movies and is appalled by the people who support them. But he has chosen to support digital games and thinks that is acceptable.



The majority of games that are only available digitally could easily be made available on disc, just like the majority of movies and TV shows that are only available digitally could easily be made available on disc.

Even online-multiplayer games could easily be on disc and there is no reason why they should require official servers to play. All the online-multiplayer games from the 90s can still be played if you can find people who want to play them.



Games can easily be re-released with new content on disc just like movies are.

I think you're quite out of touch with the state of modern gaming.

[The_Donster]

Originally Posted by Steedeel

It wouldn't happen. Disc will always be better.

How can you even say that with a straight face? I’m not going to say that physical doesn’t have the edge, but look at the leaps and bounds digital has made since this thread was created.

Originally Posted by Steedeel

Lol. You are not a founder member of this thread. (This thread was a continuation of an even older thread). That was my EXACT concern. From day one actually.

HA! Neither are you. You, you’re just a frequent flyer like the rest of us. Oh, and can you provide a link to the older thread? I bet that’s a good read.

Originally Posted by PenguinInfinity

Steedeel is obviously hypocritical and selfish. He only cares that people support the types of content he cares about most. Everyone else's preferences are wrong. Games don't matter because Steedeel doesn't like them as much as movies.

Whether or not I'm interested in any specific content or will be in the future I think that it is important that it remains available for those who are interested in it. I won't support a format that doesn't give everyone guaranteed access to the things they love.

See, this is how you get your point across.

Originally Posted by RefractiveIndex

I think you're quite out of touch with the state of modern gaming.

Eh, not necessarily. I think they’re just sticking to their principles that they won’t support anything they do have control over. Are they limiting themselves by remaining unplugged? Possibly, but I’ve got another buddy to is a single campaign player. Hell, I was unplugged with my original Xbox so long initially that I forgot my email/password for my original GT. So who’s to say they’re “out of touch” in the grand scheme.

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by Steedeel

I am in a digital world just using this forum. Daft argument.

Impossible; I do not make daft arguments, but I do argue with daft people.

We are all in a digital environment while participating on this forum, but you are more digitally engaged than some and less so than others.

You have been more absorbed into that digital plane of existence than you care to admit and you were absorbed willingly. There'd be nothing particularly wrong about that if not for your one sided criticism of your fellow digital disciples. You think only your digital indulgence is acceptable while lamenting that of your neighbors, thou hypocrite!

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by RefractiveIndex

I think you're quite out of touch with the state of modern gaming.

Most definitely.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by The_Donster

How can you even say that with a straight face? I’m not going to say that physical doesn’t have the edge, but look at the leaps and bounds digital has made since this thread was created.



HA! Neither are you. You, you’re just a frequent flyer like the rest of us. Oh, and can you provide a link to the older thread? I bet that’s a good read.



See, this is how you get your point across.




Eh, not necessarily. I think they’re just sticking to their principles that they won’t support anything they do have control over. Are they limiting themselves by remaining unplugged? Possibly, but I’ve got another buddy to is a single campaign player. Hell, I was unplugged with my original Xbox so long initially that I forgot my email/password for my original GT. So who’s to say they’re “out of touch” in the grand scheme.

Do you know what the capacity of a Blu-ray Disc is? Or a 4K UHD Disc? Don’t make ludicrous statements. Bitrates are starved on digital and always will be.

[The_Donster]

Originally Posted by Steedeel

Do you know what the capacity of a Blu-ray Disc is? Or a 4K UHD Disc? Don’t make ludicrous statements. Bitrates are starved on digital and always will be.

I can’t decide if I should give you the moniker The Deflector, Regurgitator or Absolutist

[Wendell R. Breland]

Received my copy of the Spears & Munsil UHD HDR Benchmark Test Disc yesterday. For anyone wanting to see how some of the technology works down to the pixel level may want to follow the thread (here).

The newer JVC DLA-NX9 D-ILA is in my cross-hairs, info here, review here. Just waiting to see what Deering thinks of the new BenQ .

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by The_Donster

I can’t decide if I should give you the moniker The Deflector, Regurgitator or Absolutist

I want a nickname, too! See if you can avoid the use of profanity, though; it'll be more fun if it's a challenge.

Compression is the main difference between streaming and disc. While both 4K streaming and 4K discs use H.265 codecs, the former is very, very heavily compressed compared to the latter.

A 4K stream from Netflix and most others is no more than 16 Mbps while a 100 GB 4K disc can attain a bitrate as high as 128 Mbps; that's an eight fold difference. Apple 4K TV can reach 30 Mbps, but that is still only one fourth of what a 4K disc can provide.

Streaming bitrates have been stuck at these anemic levels since 2015. The addition of HDR content has improved the quality of 4K streaming, but it still has a wide array of compression artifacts that are readily visible, especially in dark scenes, really bright scenes, motion resolution, and background detail.

4K streams still manage to look very good much of the time, but a 4K disc looks better still. Now that I have done some regurgitating of my own, I feel lighter than air...

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland

Received my copy of the Spears & Munsil UHD HDR Benchmark Test Disc yesterday. For anyone wanting to see how some of the technology works down to the pixel level may want to follow the thread (here).

The newer JVC DLA-NX9 D-ILA is in my cross-hairs, info here, review here. Just waiting to see what Deering thinks of the new BenQ .

You're thinking of pulling the trigger on a $18000 projector?! Well, congrats to you if you do it. I'd love to see that projector in action, especially with 3 delicious D content.

As for that test disc, I plan to wait until there are instructions that an undergraduate can comprehend. I also do not want to have to buy any expensive accessories in order to be able to use it. I want to know how helpful this test disc is by itself and without doctorate level knowledge.

[Wendell R. Breland]

Originally Posted by Vilya

You're thinking of pulling the trigger on a $18000 projector?! Well, congrats to you if you do it. I'd love to see that projector in action, especially with 3 delicious D content.

My Sony VPL-VW600 had a list of $15000 ($16226 2019 dollars) when I purchased it almost 5 years ago. It was purchased in a bundle deal so I got a much better price than that .

As for that test disc, I plan to wait until there are instructions that an undergraduate can comprehend. I also do not want to have to buy any expensive accessories in order to be able to use it. I want to know how helpful this test disc is by itself and without doctorate level knowledge.

They are hopping to have a PDF in about 2 months. A lot of the instructions for the S&M 2nd Edition will apply to the new disc.