The Elephant Man (1980)

[urbo73]

Originally Posted by Kyle15

Which Clown College did you go to? I need to know where I shouldn't send my kids!

Cornell, physics & math major. Good luck to your kids getting admitted!

[Mister_Kidd]

Originally Posted by urbo73

Cornell, physics & math major. Good luck to your kids getting admitted!

[cgpublic]

Originally Posted by sonicyogurt

Could you cite a podcast, interview, etc. where Lee Kline expressed this? He’s never mentioned anything remotely along those lines about UHD/HDR in anything I’ve read or listened to.

I overhead Lee speaking while having a pint at Pete's Tavern around the corner from the Criterion office on East 18th.

If you're ever in town, try the veal parm. It's not the best in the city, but it'll do.

[sonicyogurt]

Originally Posted by urbo73

Hey Geoff - is this all in the "Team Deakins" podcast? I have it in my queue to listen to, just haven't gotten to it yet.

It's from a Home Theater Forum podcast from last summer. I transcribed the relevant bits a little while back.

[postmodel]

Well, to be on topic...not sure if this has been shared...

The David Lynch Archivist - Lynchland Facebook page has posted a few times that Criterion contacted them directly in the hopes of securing as many archived items in connection with the film that they may have missed. Hopefully this means there will be more included on the disc making this a rather definitive (extras wise!) version of the film.

https://www.facebook.com/Lynchland/p...42108692522003

[bigbadwoppet]

https://www.reddit.com/r/MandelaEffe...g_has_changed/

Apparently, the film had a different ending at some point. I read somewhere that a couple of scenes were cut after first release but I cannot find that quote.

[Nailwraps]

Originally Posted by postmodel

Well, to be on topic...not sure if this has been shared...

The David Lynch Archivist - Lynchland Facebook page has posted a few times that Criterion contacted them directly in the hopes of securing as many archived items in connection with the film that they may have missed. Hopefully this means there will be more included on the disc making this a rather definitive (extras wise!) version of the film.

https://www.facebook.com/Lynchland/p...42108692522003

Sounds exciting!


There also needs to be a 5.1 remix too.

[Bates_Motel]

Originally Posted by bigbadwoppet

https://www.reddit.com/r/MandelaEffe...g_has_changed/

Apparently, the film had a different ending at some point. I read somewhere that a couple of scenes were cut after first release but I cannot find that quote.

Completely false. The original script has the VO and the mother's poem. That's the way it always was, unless HBO or someone cut the opening and closing themselves. Even IMDB mentions: "When Paramount Pictures studio executives were shown a cut of this movie, they wanted the opening and closing surrealist sequences to be cut."

[LMFAObros]

The criterion of this looks like a waste of time. If anyone state side wants a cheap copy of the UHD and is happy to wait a month or two for it to arrive the Australian UHD is the way to go imo.

[urbo73]

Originally Posted by sonicyogurt

It's from a Home Theater Forum podcast from last summer. I transcribed the relevant bits a little while back.

So I read your notes and I also listen to him talk on the Team Deakins podcast last night (it was recored on 6/10/20). He seems like a nice guy who cares about these things, has tried some with not a large amount of success, and said he's ready to go for 4K, but it doesn't sound like just his decision. The main point is that the market is just tiny - which it is, outside of these forums, as we've also acknowledged. So it's hard to say that they won't ever go into it, they just might. But what I also got (and what's already been said in this thread) is that they don't see much of a benefit to HDR for a lot of their catalog and what they do, and I would tend to agree a lot with that. HDR done on older, lower budget, arthouse, etc. films, has to be done very tastefully and with a light touch. And then, you are not really seeing too much of a difference IMHO, which I guess is what he was saying about Blood Simple or the other ones.

Anyway, that was my impression. Could happen, and I would not be surprised either way.

[urbo73]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

And one thing I will say re: HDR calibration is that when I've got two sets of the same content, one in SDR and one that's literally SDR in an HDR container (because the filmmakers hate HDR) and the HDR's gamma, colour, white balance, contrast etc is damned near identical to my calibrated SDR 709 output then I know I've got it nailed. Not that I have "eyeballed" these HDR settings, but they've been set beforehand according to my so-called calibration. Hell of a coincidence, no? Have a look at my Knives Out UHD write up https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...2#post17486112 and see what you think.

Sorry I missed this post Geoff! I just looked at what you wrote. As you may already know with HDR, you never know what you're gonna get. That Knives Out looks like some poor mastering in HDR10, and there are others too that are basically 709 wrapped in 2020 - they have REC.2020 metadata. Using IRIS from GrayMeta to analyze files is the way to go about it, as you are not looking at what the player is doing on output, but at the direct file. And on many titles there are errors, mistakes, it's chaos! Too much for this thread TBH to talk about. Midsommar is basically 709 in 2020 as well, and looks crappy as heck in HDR. Only the company intro logo has colors outside 709 for example (but inside P3). So yeah, it's a jungle once you start looking deep!

But to your point, I can't tell anything by screenshots, you know that! You have to have 2 TVs, same identical model, side by side to look and draw some sound conclusions from. Photos taken alter the colors, so you can't compare like that. But I believe you when you say they look close. But why is that? We know you can't calibrate colors, as no CMS controls on Sonys. In addition, all Sonys (projectors included) add their own processing to the signal, which is why it's impossible to even use an external LUT box with them, as they manipulate the signal, and that cannot be turned off. It's why I went with LG. As I was saying, you can do a WB and that's about it. You perform a 10-point RGB balance in SDR and 2.4 gamma and the TV uses that offset to make that calibration for HDR also. It's not possible to track HDR with 10-point grayscale, and following EOTF really doesn't mean anything.

As I was saying above, as Sonys add their own processing, and as they do this to all the modes, Knives Out (and others like it) will end up looking the similar as the algorithm is the same. If the WB is good, then that also helps too. But it's not an indicator of anything more to be honest.

In any case, this closes the topic for me, we can continue for days, but people in this thread are already bored to death

[urbo73]

Originally Posted by LMFAObros

The criterion of this looks like a waste of time. If anyone state side wants a cheap copy of the UHD and is happy to wait a month or two for it to arrive the Australian UHD is the way to go imo.

Does this have the exact same discs as the UK release just in different/less packaging? It would be about $30 USD cheaper.

[LMFAObros]

Originally Posted by urbo73

Does this have the exact same discs as the UK release just in different/less packaging? It would be about $30 USD cheaper.

It has a 4k disc, a region locked BD and bonus disc in a standard Australian UHD case. It does not have any of the physical extras of the UK but is much cheaper than the deluxe UK set as it's $20(AUD including Gerry tax) plus shipping right now from JB-Hi-Fi.

[Moovieman]

I’m happy that Criterion is releasing Elephant Man on Blu Ray. I don’t need a 4K version . I’m purchasing this release on day one. Finally , Elephant Man arrives in high def on Criterion.

[JimDiGriz]

Can't wait for the review...

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by urbo73

Sorry I missed this post Geoff! I just looked at what you wrote. As you may already know with HDR, you never know what you're gonna get. That Knives Out looks like some poor mastering in HDR10, and there are others too that are basically 709 wrapped in 2020 - they have REC.2020 metadata. Using IRIS from GrayMeta to analyze files is the way to go about it, as you are not looking at what the player is doing on output, but at the direct file. And on many titles there are errors, mistakes, it's chaos! Too much for this thread TBH to talk about. Midsommar is basically 709 in 2020 as well, and looks crappy as heck in HDR. Only the company intro logo has colors outside 709 for example (but inside P3). So yeah, it's a jungle once you start looking deep!

But to your point, I can't tell anything by screenshots, you know that! You have to have 2 TVs, same identical model, side by side to look and draw some sound conclusions from. Photos taken alter the colors, so you can't compare like that. But I believe you when you say they look close. But why is that? We know you can't calibrate colors, as no CMS controls on Sonys. In addition, all Sonys (projectors included) add their own processing to the signal, which is why it's impossible to even use an external LUT box with them, as they manipulate the signal, and that cannot be turned off. It's why I went with LG. As I was saying, you can do a WB and that's about it. You perform a 10-point RGB balance in SDR and 2.4 gamma and the TV uses that offset to make that calibration for HDR also. It's not possible to track HDR with 10-point grayscale, and following EOTF really doesn't mean anything.

As I was saying above, as Sonys add their own processing, and as they do this to all the modes, Knives Out (and others like it) will end up looking the similar as the algorithm is the same. If the WB is good, then that also helps too. But it's not an indicator of anything more to be honest.

In any case, this closes the topic for me, we can continue for days, but people in this thread are already bored to death

Two players into the same TV each on a "calibrated" input running the respective discs that can be switched across inputs at the push of button, it makes comparisons very easy. It's funny how KO looks virtually identical but so many other movies that do deviate from one another in SDR vs HDR still deviate from one another. It couldn't possibly be that I've got the baseline nailed, no, that'd be too easy.

As for Midsommar: what on earth are you talking about? The HDR has some really nice expansion of the dynamic range vs the SDR version, even if the gamut doesn't exceed 709. You can have one independent of the other, like Blade Runner 2049's UHD regularly exceeding 709 gamut for colour but doing absolutely nothing with the HDR highlights (as per Deakins' M.O.).

Originally Posted by urbo73

So I read your notes and I also listen to him talk on the Team Deakins podcast last night (it was recored on 6/10/20). He seems like a nice guy who cares about these things, has tried some with not a large amount of success, and said he's ready to go for 4K, but it doesn't sound like just his decision. The main point is that the market is just tiny - which it is, outside of these forums, as we've also acknowledged. So it's hard to say that they won't ever go into it, they just might. But what I also got (and what's already been said in this thread) is that they don't see much of a benefit to HDR for a lot of their catalog and what they do, and I would tend to agree a lot with that. HDR done on older, lower budget, arthouse, etc. films, has to be done very tastefully and with a light touch. And then, you are not really seeing too much of a difference IMHO, which I guess is what he was saying about Blood Simple or the other ones.

Anyway, that was my impression. Could happen, and I would not be surprised either way.

Arrow have just announced a 4K HDR UHD of Cinema Paradiso. Now Criterion really are being made to look like bums (separate from Elephant Man, which is out of their hands) when even foreign arthouse stuff is getting put onto 4K.

[Cevolution]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Arrow have just announced a 4K HDR UHD of Cinema Paradiso. Now Criterion really are being made to look like bums (separate from Elephant Man, which is out of their hands) when even foreign arthouse stuff is getting put onto 4K.

Arrow have surpassed Criterion... Criterion are nothing more than a brand name, like PlayStation, and they have their loyal followers that will forever purchase what they release, even when what they offer is inferior to something else. You could have two identical releases, one from Criterion and one from another company, and more people would pick the Criterion version simply because of the brand name.

[nitin]

Originally Posted by LMFAObros

The criterion of this looks like a waste of time. If anyone state side wants a cheap copy of the UHD and is happy to wait a month or two for it to arrive the Australian UHD is the way to go imo.

Not for the people locked to Region A and not UHD capable.

(I will be getting the Aus UHD though).

[happydood]

Originally Posted by Cevolution

Arrow have surpassed Criterion... Criterion are nothing more than a brand name, like PlayStation, and they have their loyal followers that will forever purchase what they release, even when what they offer is inferior to something else. You could have two identical releases, one from Criterion and one from another company, and more people would pick the Criterion version simply because of the brand name.

Give ANY release or label a year or so and people around here will start calling them garbage.

[sonicyogurt]

Originally Posted by LMFAObros

IIt does not have any of the physical extras of the UK but is much cheaper than the deluxe UK set as it's $20(AUD including Gerry tax) plus shipping right now from JB-Hi-Fi.

Thanks! It’ll take a while to get here, but the estimated delivery date is right around when the Criterion BD comes out anyway.