Belladonna of Sadness 4K UHD (1973)

[Enigmo_1]

So Discotek's twitter just put SDR screenshots up of the 4K Belladonna disc and whaddya know...

[Show spoiler]

yet again, they've failed to give us purists a true grain-preserved remaster like the 4K cinderella. Didn't they see how much this forum celebrated when Disney gave us 4K cinderella with grain?


It's really telling how much Discotek despise film grain when you put it side by side with a blu-ray.com forum favorite, the 4K Cinderella remaster. Wish Discotek could take some notes from 4K Cinderella.

-----serious post starts here

yeah kinda messed up that some dude--using an SDR plasma tv from a decade ago--telling this forum that he couldn't see grain, on an HDR disc, was met with "jeez, dodged a bullet...thanks for the warning dude, won't be buying this"... for a release that literally has more visible grain even in tonemapped SDR than the 4K Cinderella which was eaten up like crazy by the same people. David Mackenzie would be very disappointed in you all right now.

[PowellPressburger]

Originally Posted by Enigmo_1

-----serious post starts here

yeah kinda messed up that some dude--using an SDR plasma tv from a decade ago--telling this forum that he couldn't see grain, on an HDR disc,

It was me, and I only mentioned that many shots had NO grain. The UK 4K clearly had grain. I get it HDR can carry over some grain in image but of all the 4Ks I’ve down-rezzed I can still see grain. So to think that magically this disc contained the full grain element in the HDR layer is reaching. There are some shots that have zilch for grain and the distributor confirmed they used DNR and clearly have no clue how to encode a film that contains heavy grain as others were shocked to learn of their practice of grain management otherwise it cause them issues.

That said my Plasma can whip some 4K tv’s ass HDR or not. Lots of cheap shit out there. It’s the main reason it’s hard to let it go. It was the final Panasonic flagship Studio Master panel model made and many who know the model considered it jaw dropping and it’s only set for comparison was a Pioneer Kuro model. This wasn’t some bargain bin 300.00 80” 4K TV someone lost their mind over during black Friday at a walmart.

Originally Posted by 4Kisenough

Plasma is pretty ace tho. Would bet money that the TV is more reliable than how most people have their 4K Tvs setup at home. It's not the age of the screen, it's the magic spark that counts.

Thanks, you get it, and I do have a friend with a 4K TV and it looks bad, it just looked blah.

I’m still on the prowl for a great model but even the recent Sony comes
close (though I’ve never been a big fan of Sony) but reviews on AVS forum have me cringing with anxiety. Possibly a new model later this year or early 2025. Those mentioning black levels would contain a green or pink tint had me saying no way. Deep inky blacks are a must.

I did listen to the audio commentary on the Blu-Ray in the background the other day and it was a nice listen. Great info given. Worth a listen.

[cuzzin]

Originally Posted by PowellPressburger

It was me, and I only mentioned that many shots had NO grain. The UK 4K clearly had grain. I get it HDR can carry over some grain in image but of all the 4Ks I’ve down-rezzed I can still see grain. So to think that magically this disc contained the full grain element in the HDR layer is reaching. There are some shots that have zilch for grain and the distributor confirmed they used DNR and clearly have no clue how to encode a film that contains heavy grain as others were shocked to learn of their practice of grain management otherwise it cause them issues.

That said my Plasma can whip some 4K tv’s ass HDR or not. Lots of cheap shit out there. It’s the main reason it’s hard to let it go. It was the final Panasonic flagship Studio Master panel model made and many who know the model considered it jaw dropping and it’s only set for comparison was a Pioneer Kuro model. This wasn’t some bargain bin 300.00 80” 4K TV someone lost their mind over during black Friday at a walmart.




Thanks, you get it, and I do have a friend with a 4K TV and it looks bad, it just looked blah.

I’m still on the prowl for a great model but even the recent Sony comes
close (though I’ve never been a big fan of Sony) but reviews on AVS forum have me cringing with anxiety. Possibly a new model later this year or early 2025. Those mentioning black levels would contain a green or pink tint had me saying no way. Deep inky blacks are a must.

I did listen to the audio commentary on the Blu-Ray in the background the other day and it was a nice listen. Great info given. Worth a listen.

You're thinking about it too hard. I also upgraded from a plasma (final gen Pioneer Elite Kuro), and there's just no question that the best panels available today best it. Is your friends TV that looks so bad a good model, or some cheap off-brand? Is it calibrated? This issue you keep mentioning with supposed pink blacks on OLEDs no doubt has happened with someone's model somewhere, but it is not common. And it's not like your plasma won't suffer (if it's not already) due to age. The blacks on Kuros were infamous for eventually leaning red once they came a certain age. And that was much more widespread of an issue with those TVs than it is with modern OLEDs. If OLEDs suffer from anything, it is performance of certain panels with near-black uniformity. The "panel lottery," as some call it. Not every panel has the issue, but some can, to the point that you may wish to exchange it for a new panel. But I say dive in already. You're on the right track with your eye towards Sony. They're the current kings of flat panel technology, imo. However, given your love for Panasonic, while their OLEDs are hard to come by in the US, they can be found, and are apparently something truly special.

[PowellPressburger]

Yeah the recent Sony gets high marks, but some reviewers and owners have noticed that green or pink tint on black… some think firmware update may fix it but not sure yet.

And its a 5,000.00 tv..

Thankfully the plasma is only touched by me and still has gorgeous black levels.

I just know its days are numbered, nothing lasts forever.

[peppapigstan]

Originally Posted by PowellPressburger

It was me, and I only mentioned that many shots had NO grain. The UK 4K clearly had grain. I get it HDR can carry over some grain in image but of all the 4Ks I’ve down-rezzed I can still see grain. So to think that magically this disc contained the full grain element in the HDR layer is reaching. There are some shots that have zilch for grain and the distributor confirmed they used DNR and clearly have no clue how to encode a film that contains heavy grain as others were shocked to learn of their practice of grain management otherwise it cause them issues.

You do realize the BD included with this UHD is the exact same DNR'd transfer but tonemapped? That Cinderella UHD also has very little grain as Enigmo showed. Not sure what you're seeing.

[ViscountCarnacki]

Hi everyone,

Sorry but this thread is giving me a headache - is this US release the good one, or do we need to get the older UK release?

[PowellPressburger]

Originally Posted by peppapigstan

That Cinderella UHD also has very little grain as Enigmo showed. Not sure what you're seeing.

I’ve never once brought up Cinderella in my discussion.

[andreasy969]

This thread is giving me a headache as well. Unless I missed something, so far we have: One actual comment on the pq. Lots of pointless comments just ridiculing other people's setup without contributing anything worthwhile.

And instead of posting Cinderalla caps, which we all already know has very nice grain, what about posting Belladonna caps instead? Maybe?

[Le Grande Blu]

I just got back from a 3 week holiday, saw that one of my all time favourite films had reached 8 pages on the forum, and settled back to read all the postitive comments from first time viewers...

[Ruined]

Most people don't understand that HDR and grain DO in fact interact, and tonemapping can exacerbate it.

Having the maximum amount of visible grain is not necessarily ideal, nor accurate to how the film originally appeared, when using HDR. Hell throw in some light edge enhancement and you can make it even MORE grainy!

It's really a simpleminded take on video to compare two images, and just declare whichever has the most noise as better while disregarding everything else.

[peppapigstan]

Originally Posted by andreasy969

This thread is giving me a headache as well. Unless I missed something, so far we have: One actual comment on the pq. Lots of pointless comments just ridiculing other people's setup without contributing anything worthwhile.

And instead of posting Cinderalla caps, which we all already know has very nice grain, what about posting Belladonna caps instead? Maybe?

Discotek has already put screencaps on their twitter for months now: https://twitter.com/discotekmedia/st...750992/photo/3

Additionally, they posted more within the past 48 hours: https://twitter.com/discotekmedia/st...78371440791808

Originally Posted by PowellPressburger

I’ve never once brought up Cinderella in my discussion.

My mistake! The other guy probably was just bringing it up as a reference point for a highly praised UHD for a piece of classic cel animation

[andreasy969]

Originally Posted by peppapigstan

Discotek has already put screencaps on their twitter for months now: https://twitter.com/discotekmedia/st...750992/photo/3

Additionally, they posted more within the past 48 hours: https://twitter.com/discotekmedia/st...78371440791808

Thx. I don't do twitter/x and unless I really missed the link here, that's why I cannot know that. Having said that, I guess I still need to see the supposedly bad ones. (And maybe also unbiased ones as in not from the company.)

[Ruined]

I just received and previewed the disc

There is a very fine layer of grain but its definitely was managed/DNR'd some. You can see this effect in motion better than paused, as the movement of the grain has that slow smeary movement at times (but not all the time) that is common with DNR. The amount and resolution of the grain seems to vary from scene to scene as well, which also appears due to encoding struggles; I saw the bitrate swing from 23mbps to 66mbps even within the same shot. At the 25:48-26:13min mark there is a scene with red background where there is zero grain, and quite a lot of bad macroblocking with the bitrate being constant at under 2mbps (not a typo) for the entirety of this brief segment! Reminds me of a 240p youtube video or the beginning of the 4K "The Craft" UHD for this 25sec clip, though luckily unlike that film this segment doesnt have much detail naturally which is likely why the encoder dropped bitrate so low (down to 1.1mbps for a good chunk!). So clearly the encoder here was set super aggressively.

Overall though despite these issues, this blows away the previous release because of the color/HDR and the grain is mostly intact-ish for most of the film.


MaxCLL 8298 nits (!) - this one probably gonna look great on some of those new high nit tvs like the 2024 sony bravia 9
MaxFALL 577 nits

[Kyle15]

omg

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by Kyle15

omg

yup its gonna be one of those

[Enigmo_1]

Originally Posted by Ruined

I just received and previewed the disc

There is a very fine layer of grain but its definitely was managed/DNR'd some. You can see this effect in motion better than paused, as the movement of the grain has that slow smeary movement at times (but not all the time) that is common with DNR. The amount and resolution of the grain seems to vary from scene to scene as well, which also appears due to encoding struggles; I saw the bitrate swing from 23mbps to 66mbps even within the same shot. At the 25:48-26:13min mark there is a scene with red background where there is zero grain, and quite a lot of bad macroblocking with the bitrate being constant at under 2mbps (not a typo) for the entirety of this brief segment! Reminds me of a 240p youtube video or the beginning of the 4K "The Craft" UHD for this 25sec clip, though luckily unlike that film this segment doesnt have much detail naturally which is likely why the encoder dropped bitrate so low (down to 1.1mbps for a good chunk!). So clearly the encoder here was set super aggressively.

Overall though despite these issues, this blows away the previous release because of the color/HDR and the grain is mostly intact-ish for most of the film.


MaxCLL 8298 nits (!) - this one probably gonna look great on some of those new high nit tvs like the 2024 sony bravia 9
MaxFALL 577 nits

If the grain is slow and sticky, especially only at times, could be down to the bitrate getting low maybe more than it being a DNR thing?

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by Enigmo_1

If the grain is slow and sticky, especially only at times, could be down to the bitrate getting low maybe more than it being a DNR thing?

In my experience bitrate doesnt affect the speed of the grain, but rather its resolution. There is plenty of bitrate-affected grain as well (as I mentioned, there is one 25 second scene with 1.1mbps - 1.5mbps bitrate and quite a few scenes where the grain fuzzes in and out due to bitrate), but it to me looks like there was some noise filtering applied at times also. The grain is quite varied and inconsistent in this release.

[kmhofmann]

Originally Posted by enigmo_1

if the grain is slow and sticky, especially only at times, could be down to the bitrate getting low maybe more than it being a dnr thing?

No.

[TremiRodomi]

Also chiming in to say that I got the disc yesterday, and to my eyes it looks completely fine. It blows away the UK 4K by a long shot. And yes, it does have reduced grain but there is still very much a visible layer of grain and no detail lost, which is what matters at the end of the day, really.

Of course people are allowed to have an opinion, but when someone isn't watching the disc as they're supposed to I think their take should be taken with a grain of salt when deciding if to actually acquire it. That is all.

[Enigmo_1]

Originally Posted by Ruined

In my experience bitrate doesnt affect the speed of the grain, but rather its resolution. There is plenty of bitrate-affected grain as well (as I mentioned, there is one 25 second scene with 1.1mbps - 1.5mbps bitrate and quite a few scenes where the grain fuzzes in and out due to bitrate), but it to me looks like there was some noise filtering applied at times also. The grain is quite varied and inconsistent in this release.

both temporal dnr and video compression use motion compensation and it's why either one of them would make grain static/move slower. i've seen HEVC make grain static and warp it in awfully low bitrates, will post some video examples later on