Dolby Atmos, Auro, and 3D audio thread

[paperthin567]

Originally Posted by JohnAV

How the heck does Dolby Atmos make any difference on a cheap HTIB system?

It doesn't. Ad the reality is, the manufacturers don't care. As long as people buy it, they're happy.

[Cevolution]

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

People have some of the cheapest BD players, budget TVs, soundbars, HTiBs, etc. on this site. People wondering why movies have to be letterboxed or what Dolby TrueHD or DTS-MA is. You have to remember this is a site for everyone, not just enthusiasts.

Perhaps I should of said 'nobody cares about them who is involved in this conversation', as don't the majority who participate in threads in the home theatre sections of this site, the near dormant HTiB sub-forum supports this:

https://forum.blu-ray.com/forumdisplay.php?f=81

Honestly I don't really see many people who buy low quality equipment running out to purchasing another HTiB system just because of Atmos, that would defeat the purpose of them buying cheap equipment with limited performance and features in the first place.

[slimdude]

Originally Posted by SubSolar

I don't understand this anger. So, they're not supposed to come out with new technologies unless you can use existing equipment? You shouldn't spend so much on electronics, they are outdated in no time. Speakers you can keep much longer cause the tech doesn't change as much. I bought a Denon 3313 less than two years ago and will be replacing it with an Atmos receiver this year. That will be replaced in a year or two also, when HDCP 2.2 and other stuff is added.

When DTS introduce their version of Dolby Atmos, you'll be upgrading your receiver again. You do know, it's not a requirement to upgrade your A/V receiver, every time a new technology is release. Receivers are like computers! You buy one, and as soon as you take it out of the store, it's obsolete. That's how manufacturers make their money! By adding a new feature to lure, and entice the consumers to buy another receiver. Technology advances everyday, and at the rate that you're going, you'll be upgrading your receiver every 1-2 years. Trying to keep up with The Joneses, is very expensive.. I'm not going to allow myself to fall into that trap. You have to use common sense.

[BozQ]

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

How is he paying a premium for Dolby TrueHD with Atmos if the titles don't cost any more than they usually do?


Again, it's not like 3D where separate discs are usually required.

The way I see it, this can go both ways. If we take DVD as a measure, it could end up like Dolby Digital EX, where it was included at little to no additional cost. And those who had an EX decoder could enjoy it and those that don't enjoy 5.1 at no loss. Or it could end up like some DVDs that had a separate release for DTS soundtracks.

And I think this depends on individual studios decisions than Dolby’s. I hope for the former. Obviously.

Originally Posted by slimdude

When DTS introduce their version of Dolby Atmos, you'll be upgrading your receiver again. You do know, it's not a requirement to upgrade your A/V receiver, every time a new technology is release. Receivers are like computers! You buy one, and as soon as you take it out of the store, it's obsolete. That's how manufacturers make their money! By adding a new feature to lure, and entice the consumers to buy another receiver. Technology advances everyday,and at the rate that you're going, you'll be upgrading your receivers every1-2 years. Trying to keep up with The Joneses, can very expensive.. I'm not going to allow myself to fall into that trap. You have to use common sense.

And it's precisely why there's nothing to worry when DTS introduces MDA or UHD, whatever they're going to call it. As far as I know, Dolby Atmos is proprietary while MDA is open source. It's not a simple matter of taking an Atmos project and encode it in DTS. They haven't even roll it out to cinemas, I don't see how they're going to find any success at home.

The key thing here is to be informed. Barco has had Auro 11.1 for a couple of years, but they've done almost nothing to bring it to home theater. There's a couple of music only BDs recorded in 9.1 and that's it. Barco hasn't pushed the format as aggressively for many people to even consider getting a Auro receiver.

DTS had NeoX, we have maybe three BDs with DTS NeoX 11.1, but I cast serious doubts of its actual quality because movies like Dredd and Expendables 2 didn't even have 7.1, I don't see how there could be 11.1
DTS HeadphoneX is another squandered format. I was genuinely hoping this would have been a intermediate measure in introducing 3D surround on a budget.

Dolby has its fair share of missteps. Dolby Pro Logic IIz comes to mind. Only one video game made use of it and that's it.

But Dolby has done a great job trying to introduce Atmos for homes in the easiest way possible. They've even considered and designed unique speakers for most home theater owners that will not want to install speakers on their ceilings.

And unlike the other formats that I've just mentioned, there are about a hundred Atmos titles ready to be released on Blu-ray, compared to less than ten combined for the rest.

Dolby will probably see modest success with Home Atmos. As long as they continue working with studios with more software release, Atmos is something worth considering the investment.

[mtbdudexdad]

One discussion point I've not seen is how good the upmixer works on non-atmos content:


Once people invest $$$$ into new AVR and the speakers, you do want to use that gear.
That will be part of the make it or break it, who the heck is going to re-purchase good blu-rays just for atmos re-mix? Not I.
Will the studios even break their bank just to release a re-mix in atmos?
Maybe only for the biggie/legacy movies.

Now, if the atmos upmixer does a good job, then people can feel good about their purchase and not have buyers remorse/etc.

I've not read about any A vs B for the upmixer on non-atmos mix, why?

I'm running a full 11.2 set-up and can say that NeoX upmixer does add envelopment to my HT (prior was 7.1), enough that I leave it always on.
I've tried PLIIz and DSX, but NeoX seems to have the best balanced upmixer out there.
I've had 4-5 other HT enthusiasts over and they agree.
Me - I'm waiting till 2016/2017 for 4kPJ and object surround to settle down before next upgrade.

[Spanbauer]

Originally Posted by mtbdudexdad

That will be part of the make it or break it, who the heck is going to re-purchase good blu-rays just for atmos re-mix? Not I.
Will the studios even break their bank just to release a re-mix in atmos?
Maybe only for the biggie/legacy movies.

Why can't Atmos just be something we enjoy from new blu-ray releases moving forward? That's the way I see it. I've never understood the "oh great, now I have to repurchase everything!" mentality every time a new format or feature comes to fruition. If every Atmos-mixed film that hasn't already been released on blu-ray included an atmos mix from this point forward, that would be good enough for me.

But at the same time, I don't think anyone should run out and buy whole new speakers just for Atmos. If you're in the market for new speakers anyhow, or if the atmos speakers are also an improvement in every other way over one's current gear, then so be it.

[dobyblue]

Originally Posted by mtbdudexdad

I'm running a full 11.2 set-up

Looks pretty sweet, why no HT gallery?

[Blu-Dog]

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

Well, most receivers for the past several years have been able to decode bitstreamed codecs. I got mine in late 2007. That was nearly 7 years ago.

Your player will not decode Atmos. NO player will be able to decode Atmos. Probably never. Most players can't decode EX/ES soundtracks either so for me it was a no brainer to bitstream.

You got your receiver about the same time I got mine. A new receiver, Pioneer's 94 series, came out about six months after I got the 84. I never gave a hoot - I get all the advanced audio I want.


Any new player for UHD/4K would definitely have it, and no new player is required for Atmos, is my understanding. All that is needed is a method for amplification for the new speakers. Not a big deal, for an external box.

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

In any case, your player will continue to decode the Dolby TrueHD tracks, it will just ignore the extra Atmos data. As will every other player and receiver that decodes Dolby TrueHD and not Atmos.

Well, that's news. It's news if I need a special amp just to decode things, and not use some sort of pass-through arrangement (which should work just fine, and I can't see why it should be prevented). I'm not getting a new receiver until it's needed for UHD/4K, with the increased bandwidth for video. And not even then, if the television can pass through the sound format.

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

Which is precisely the HTiB I was talking about. No speaker hanging required. You just double up the wiring to the surround backs and the main speakers for the Atmos radiators.

Can't use it. Sloped ceilings, it's a non-starter for me, and everyone in my neighborhood - we've all got sloped ceilings, lofts, things like that. There are no cubicle-shaped common rooms where I live.


The glued-on upward firing speakers just don't do it here. We all need a hung, downward-firing setup. There's also esthetics to consider - it's not a warehouse with a screen setup for my rigs, except for rooms used by the kids who visit for cartoon watching (not real Atmos fodder). This stuff needs to look better than that, really. Not to be snobbish - but my wife insisted on Sonus Faber, Definitive Mythos, and JL Audio Fathom both for sound AND looks. She's not going to go for purely functional boxes, ever, and not for a handful of movies.

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

Ever hear of a little company called Apple?

Yeah, once in a while.

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

Most of their existence is predicated on people constantly upgrading their stuff. Ask any iPhone/iPad user. $500 a pop to upgrade their phone/tablet every year or two (amortized through their plans)?

I'd have to ask myself. I use an iPhone 4, have a Mac 2007 running Windows 7, got an iPad for my Mom, my wife has the same phone I have, some iPods we still use from back in about 2004 or 2005, I forget. Had to put new batteries in them.


I believe in technical functionality. It should work on day 1, and keep working. If it doesn't, it's not built well. I don't change gear like clothes, and if some do, I wish them well - they'll never be satisfied. If I need a new function, I'll get it, but this can be added in, if it's good gear.

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

Those who want Atmos right away will have to buy new equipment. Those upgrading gradually over the years will find Atmos already included in their new receivers. I don't see the big deal here.

It isn't a big deal, I agree. If Atmos is to succeed, it needs wide acceptance, and you can't get that by telling people to wait a few years. When Dolby went to lossless codecs, I got an upgrade to my original 2006
Sony player in 2007 that decoded it. When DTS-HD showed up, I waited until the players came out - maybe 2009, can't remember - and that problem was settled, too. Not a big deal.


If Atmos requires a new receiver, it will wait, and not be sought after by me. I think they know that, and someone will build a better mousetrap pretty quickly. Maybe the industry learned from 3-D, maybe they didn't. The industry can do silly things sometimes, but not over and over again.

[Blu-Dog]

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

I'm not ready for a receiver upgrade until late 2015 anyway.

Well, I've consulted with my audio fashion guru (I gave her a wedding ring, and all I get is free advice and some nice gear) and she advises me that she doesn't care what the electronics are, but if we have ceiling speakers, they have to conform to certain standards.


Like these.


http://www.bang-olufsen.com/en/sound/loudspeakers


I naturally asked her, have you lost your mind. Her response was, have you ever asked yourself the same question.


I'm still trying to come up with a reasonable answer. She won't give me the ring back, either. I don't know how to deal with this.

[mtbdudexdad]

Originally Posted by Spanbauer

Why can't Atmos just be something we enjoy from new blu-ray releases moving forward? That's the way I see it. I've never understood the "oh great, now I have to repurchase everything!" mentality every time a new format or feature comes to fruition. If every Atmos-mixed film that hasn't already been released on blu-ray included an atmos mix from this point forward, that would be good enough for me.

But at the same time, I don't think anyone should run out and buy whole new speakers just for Atmos. If you're in the market for new speakers anyhow, or if the atmos speakers are also an improvement in every other way over one's current gear, then so be it.

Honestly when I got my Denon 4520CI in Dec-2012 it was to replace my 5 year old 4308CI. The fact it had 11.x capability opened my eyes to heights/wides, I did not buy it for that.
However, once I went there was truly amazed by the additional audio experience they added.
So, I 100% agree people should not buy just for Atmos, but if it's built in why not "play"and see how it does improve the experience?

Originally Posted by dobyblue

Looks pretty sweet, why no HT gallery?

Thx, my signature link has complete cliff notes of my basement/HT build.

[mtbdudexdad]

PeterTHX, late 2015 may be just when the codec(s) from DTS are also in AVR's, I'd not buy ones now that have just Atmos as we all know DTS object sound will be in AVR's very shortly.

[JohnAV]

Originally Posted by mtbdudexdad

Honestly when I got my Denon 4520CI in Dec-2012 it was to replace my 5 year old 4308CI. The fact it had 11.x capability opened my eyes to heights/wides, I did not buy it for that.
However, once I went there was truly amazed by the additional audio experience they added.
So, I 100% agree people should not buy just for Atmos, but if it's built in why not "play"and see how it does improve the experience?

Thx, my signature link has complete cliff notes of my basement/HT build.

Agreed! I don't see anything wrong if one gets a new ARV that support Atmos and sees if it makes any meaningful improvement with your speaker implementation, that is what we all are after. I just have problems with anyone acting like it will be as 5.1 as to stereo, which some proponents of Dolby Atmos try to pitch, without any real feedback from home theater buffs.

[PeterTHX]

Originally Posted by JohnAV

Agreed! I don't see anything wrong if one gets a new ARV that support Atmos and sees if it makes any meaningful improvement with your speaker implementation, that is what we all are after. I just have problems with anyone acting like it will be as 5.1 as to stereo, which some proponents of Dolby Atmos try to pitch, without any real feedback from home theater buffs.

How about the fact that theatrical Atmos is to 5.1/7.1 as 5.1 is to stereo?


And there has been feedback from home theater buffs if you bother to research.

[PeterTHX]

Originally Posted by mtbdudexdad

PeterTHX, late 2015 may be just when the codec(s) from DTS are also in AVR's, I'd not buy ones now that have just Atmos as we all know DTS object sound will be in AVR's very shortly.

Films mixed in Atmos are not compatible with DTS' stuff they bought from SRS Labs. A film would need to be remixed from scratch. Always late to the party, waiting for someone else to lay the groundwork.

[JohnAV]

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

How about the fact that theatrical Atmos is to 5.1/7.1 as 5.1 is to stereo?

Seriously you challenge us to comparing a full-blown Atmos cinema system to what can barely constitute a Atmos system in one's home?

Is this a fair comparison?

vs

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

And there has been feedback from home theater buffs if you bother to research.

Some journalists and AVS members attend carefully staged Dolby demo's with selected content, was everyone convinced that it was best.

As soon as the Dolby event ended, we headed over to Theo Kalomirakis' new home theater, the Roxy 2.0. Unfortunately, Ralph could not make it, but Chris Boylan, the editor of BigPictureBigSound.com came along. Chris was part of the group we were in during the demos at Dolby, so he had the same experience we did. We watched the scene from Star Trek on Blu-ray with the Dolby TrueHD 7.1 soundtrack. I thought Theo's system sounded better than the theatrical Atmos presentation at Dolby's screening room, and quite superior to Dolby's home theater presentation. Even so, I do think that Theo's theater could benefit from Atmos, as long as it improves upon an already excellent presentation.

[JohnAV]

This is the Roxy 2.0. theater that trumped both Dolby Atmos Demo's. It's a compact 13 by 17-foot six-seater put together in a minimalist style with an impressive-sounding 7.1 channel surround speaker system from California Audio Technology—featuring twelve subwoofers—that is entirely hidden by the screen and wall panels.

[JohnAV]

Since a bit of Atmos vs DTS MDA

TOWARD AN OPEN-STANDARD SURROUND-SOUND FORMAT

[PeterTHX]

Originally Posted by JohnAV

Seriously you challenge us to comparing a full-blown Atmos cinema system to what can barely constitute a Atmos system in one's home?

So you're saying don't bother with anything more than the TV speakers...because why bother with more if it can't compare to a multi-thousand watt setup in a theater?


The majority of opinions seem to think that the upward firing speakers perform quite well, despite your attempts to convey one or two reviews as proof of failure.


http://www.gizmodo.co.uk/2014/08/dol...ody-brilliant/


http://televisions.reviewed.com/feat...surround-sound

http://www.cnet.com/news/dolby-atmos-at-home-ears-on/


http://www.theregister.co.uk/2014/08...eater_preview/


http://www.whathifi.com/news/dolby-a...inging-it-home


http://www.residentialsystems.com/de...90&EntryId=845


http://www.bigpicturebigsound.com/Do...our-Ears.shtml


http://www.avforums.com/article/brin...ing-room.10581


http://www.insideci.co.uk/news/thumb...ler-demos.aspx


...and that's just a few hits from a quick Google search. But do go on and post more negative reviews, if you can find them.

Whatever happens the good news is that Dolby Atmos sounds just as good in the home as it does in the cinema

Not according to JohnAV! He can tell that it's impossible and that's by not even hearing it for himself!

So what does it sound like? The good news is that the domestic version of Atmos proves to be astonishingly similar to its theatrical sibling. Even more remarkable, the performance of those Dolby Atmos Enabled Speakers is uncannily similar to that of physical in-ceiling speakers.

So, unless DTS is paying you to troll this thread I want to know why you're so hellbent in convincing others it's not worth it.

[JohnAV]

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

So, unless DTS is paying you to troll this thread I want to know why you're so hellbent in convincing others it's not worth it.

This is a open topic forum, you started to badger me on this thread, if anything your are a rabid Atmos fanboy with no scruples that likes to call others names. If you don't like being more open minded to other opinions then don't respond to everyone here that doesn't think the same as you do.

[mrpink134]

IMO I think that the firing upward speakers are a gimmick and a waste of money. If I go the Atmos route I will wait until the Blu Rays have them on the disk itself, then I will add some ceiling speakers. I will never buy a HTIB setup.

I'm going to wait and see what happens before I do anything.