UHD Blu-ray Disc Authentication Poll

[rdodolak]

Originally Posted by Richard Paul

It might be outdated information but here is a link to the presentations from the 45th BDA meeting.

Any idea what diagram was being referred to?

[rdodolak]

Originally Posted by bruceames.

I never thought I'd buy an iPhone either.

What I can tell you is that I still haven't bought an iPhone and still see no need to as far as I can see into the future.

[PenguinMaster]

Originally Posted by rdodolak

I can't see a one time authentication being one time. It may be one time, in the sense that, as long as the player doesn't die or the cache/memory doesn't get corrupted. But any online authentication will put a short limited life on the physical media which completely defeats the purpose of having physical media.

I can't believe anyone can seriously think people will invest thousands into such a limited-time scheme.

Unfortunately I don't think most people will be thinking long term. Look at Xbox One for an example of this. While a huge number of people were against Microsoft's original plans (daily online authentication and only reselling through authorized stores), most don't have a problem with their current system (one time authorization per profile).

Even with that when Microsoft stops supporting the Xbox One the consoles will be unfixable if the slightest problem comes up. In the case of all other consoles any third-party company can fix a broken console and there is no problem with returning the system to default settings. In the case of Xbox One default settings are useless until you connect to Microsoft's servers and make a profile (which you likely won't be able to do 20 years from now).

[bruceames]

20 years is a long time. I doubt I'll be watching many UHD BD's by then, much less BD's.

I know UHD BD will be a more limited format in terms of content, which should make it easy to scale back purchases to a reasonable level.

Is there any data which shows what percentage of gaming revenue (or units) is through XBL vs. buying the disc? It seems that buying downloads is getting to be very commonplace.

[rdodolak]

Originally Posted by bruceames.

20 years is a long time. I doubt I'll be watching many UHD BD's by then, much less BD's.

I know UHD BD will be a more limited format in terms of content, which should make it easy to scale back purchases to a reasonable level.

Is there any data which shows what percentage of gaming revenue (or units) is through XBL vs. buying the disc? It seems that buying downloads is getting to be very commonplace.

DVDs are currently 18 years old and the general public seem to still be buying them up. I still have the DVDs that I purchased many of which aren't available on BD.

If the studios do want to sell these at a premium price I'd expect much more, not less, in return for that investment. Any scheme which has the potential to lessen the useful life of a disc isn't worth the additional premium.

[PenguinMaster]

Originally Posted by bruceames.

20 years is a long time. I doubt I'll be watching many UHD BD's by then, much less BD's.

I know UHD BD will be a more limited format in terms of content, which should make it easy to scale back purchases to a reasonable level.

Over 400 of your movies are over 20 years old. While all of those movies happened to come to Blu-ray there is no guarantee that they'll come to UHD BD (or later formats). Are you just going to give up on watching those movies if they aren't available on the latest format?

While I wasn't against voluntarily upgrading most of my collection to Blu-ray, I still watch the movies and TV shows I have on DVD that aren't available on Blu-ray. If the proposed DRM becomes standard then everyone will only be able to watch content on the latest format, all previous formats will stop working as soon as they stop making money.

It's perfectly reasonable that Nintendo no longer supports NES, SNES, Nintendo 64, and Gamecube. But since they don't have any DRM, nobody requires Nintendo's support to continue playing games on all those systems. Once any format introduces online DRM the format becomes useless as soon as companies pull support.

[raygendreau]

Originally Posted by rdodolak

Any idea what diagram was being referred to?

I prefer not to post links to wikileaks, but you can see the diagram on page 7
of Digital Bridge Proposal 12 February 2014 AACS LA,LLC. It is a 17 pg PDF document.

Originally Posted by bruceames.

Are you sure those apply to UHD BD as well and not just digital?

Yes, I'm sure. It was updated from 1.0 after BOD 45 to clarify questions raised by the AACS proposal.

[bruceames]

Originally Posted by PenguinMaster

Over 400 of your movies are over 20 years old. While all of those movies happened to come to Blu-ray there is no guarantee that they'll come to UHD BD (or later formats). Are you just going to give up on watching those movies if they aren't available on the latest format?

I really don't know. I have hundreds of movies on DVD as well that aren't available on Blu-ray. But I don't watch them anymore (nor have plans to watch them). Seems there's always enjoyable movies to watch in the latest and greatest format.

[rdodolak]

Originally Posted by raygendreau

I prefer not to post links to wikileaks, but you can see the diagram on page 7 of Digital Bridge Proposal 12 February 2014 AACS LA,LLC. It is a 17 pg PDF document.

What about the 5 March circulation version? There appears to be a lot of information circulating in this forum so it may be getting jumbled. I guess I'm missing where it says a disc will be required to be in the UHD player in order to playback a SFF export file on a media device?

[PenguinMaster]

Originally Posted by bruceames.

I really don't know. I have hundreds of movies on DVD as well that aren't available on Blu-ray. But I don't watch them anymore (nor have plans to watch them). Seems there's always enjoyable movies to watch in the latest and greatest format.

I'm sure there are many that agree with you, they have no interest in watching content on old formats. But why should that option be taken away? At this point it hasn't been taken away... nothing is stopping anyone from watching old out-of-print DVDs, Laser Discs, or VHS tapes. But if the proposed DRM becomes standard then that option will disappear. People won't be able to watch their UHD BDs when a new format has replaced it.

[bruceames]

Originally Posted by PenguinMaster

I'm sure there are many that agree with you, they have no interest in watching content on old formats. But why should that option be taken away? At this point it hasn't been taken away... nothing is stopping anyone from watching old out-of-print DVDs, Laser Discs, or VHS tapes. But if the proposed DRM becomes standard then that option will disappear. People won't be able to watch their UHD BDs when a new format has replaced it.

What makes you think they're going to take away the rights someday to watch a whole format full of movies.? That would be suicide for the studios as far as future HV sales revenue is concerned. Nobody would buy anything after that. I think you're being too paranoid. Discs and tapes don't last forever anyway.

[PenguinMaster]

Originally Posted by bruceames.

What makes you think they're going to take away the rights someday to watch a whole format full of movies.? That would be suicide for the studios as far as future HV sales revenue is concerned. Nobody would buy anything after that. I think you're being too paranoid. Discs and tapes don't last forever anyway.

All of the online servers for Xbox and Playstation 2 games were shutdown. I doubt many companies would be willing to continue spending money to keep the servers running for formats that no longer make them money.

While tapes are likely to start losing their magnetism within a few decades, I expect optical discs to last more than a century. In both cases it is likely much longer than any online servers will last.

[PenguinMaster]

Originally Posted by bruceames.

I would say the number of digital games bought for the PS2 and Xbox were minuscule. And shutting down the servers doesn't necessarily mean your games or movies disappear. It'll probably just mean you'll be able to continue to play your downloaded collection without needing internet authentication anymore. The Sony 4K Unlimited server was down a couple of times and I was still able to play my downloads.

What if your system breaks? I can get a broken Xbox repaired or replaced but I can never redownload any content for it. Plus you are missing the most important point: if there is DRM then companies can take away access. It's possible that they won't, but I'm not going to let them have that power regardless. Without DRM no company has the ability to take away access to anything.

EDIT: The post I was quoting seems to have disappeared.

[reanimator]

Originally Posted by bruceames.

I think you're being too paranoid.

There certainly seems to be an overload of, "but what if?! what if?! what if?!" going around.

Am I really going to hold-off buying a 4K version of LAWRENCE OF ARABIA out of fear I might have to replace it 20 years from now? Life's too short.

AV enthusiasts -- the exact people that UHD-BD is aimed at -- universally suffer from a condition called "upgrade-itis." Not only does swapping out formats go with the territory, it's even desirable. It's part of the fun.

BD has been awesome for the past 8 years. Hopefully I'll get 8 years of enjoyment out of UHD-BD before I have to upgrade to holographic projection.

[PenguinMaster]

Originally Posted by reanimator

There certainly seems to be an overload of, "but what if?! what if?! what if?!" going around.

Am I really going to hold-off buying a 4K version of LAWRENCE OF ARABIA out of fear I might have to replace it 20 years from now? Life's too short.

AV enthusiasts -- the exact people that UHD-BD is aimed at -- universally suffer from a condition called "upgrade-itis." Not only does swapping out formats go with the territory, it's even desirable. It's part of the fun.

BD has been awesome for the past 8 years. Hopefully I'll get 8 years of enjoyment out of UHD-BD before I have to upgrade to holographic projection.

I have no problem with upgrading but it's my choice to do so. If I felt DVD was good enough I wouldn't upgrade to Blu-ray. And my DVDs of titles that aren't on Blu-ray still work just fine. If DRM is implemented than I can't count on any of that with UHD BD.

The amount of people that upgraded most of their DVD collection to Blu-ray is pretty minimal (even among people who buy new releases on Blu-ray). And even though I'm among the ones who did upgrade their collection I don't think any of the people who think DVD is good enough should lose access to their collection (fortunately they can't). When people eventually decide UHD BD is good enough and don't want to upgrade to the next format, those people shouldn't lose access to their UHD BDs either.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by Blu-Dog

It may crush studio egos (they'd like for us to report to the Overlords with obsequious keystrokes, as often as possible) but they could just employ a dongle to go on the player.


Something no more complicate than a USB stick. That's it. Worked for AutoCAD for decades.


More than one player? Get more than one dongle. Wrong dongle, the player is locked out. Get the first one registered with whatever info is required (?) and forget posting to some site every time you play it. If security is the requirement, dongles work just fine.


If, as I suspect, it's a free way to do marketing research, or noodle around on people's networks, they can go hang. I can support security efforts - I can't stand thieves and freeloaders - but playing the "oh no, the server's down," or "you can't register this movie, someone already had the license," or other such shenanigans makes no sense.


Just use a damn dongle and be done with it.

What do we want? We want dongles, when do we want them? NOW!

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by bruceames.

What makes you think they're going to take away the rights someday to watch a whole format full of movies.? That would be suicide for the studios as far as future HV sales revenue is concerned. Nobody would buy anything after that. I think you're being too paranoid. Discs and tapes don't last forever anyway.

Well, my DVD copy of Twister is still going strong!

[Peak]

Originally Posted by Kirsty_Mc

My Emphasis.

That is on of the nubs of the problem. Sony Did not release this particular item in Europe, instead launching the FMP-X5 with no service to back it up. Also it was crippled with no hard drive. Rights issues were stated for the lack of a service.

So for UHD Blu-Ray I'm envisaging quite a problem in importing titles. Even if played on a USA player, with this online authentication cr4p it would probably still not play an imported title.

Due to many factors, even though I live in Sweden, I am running on my imported Oppo player from US, and I buy all my Blu-rays from Amazon.com as Region A. I prefer that, and if they choose to limit my options, I will have to sit tight on my current 1080p collection.

I had the first Samsung Blu-ray player (which I remember with equal joy and pain ). I will own the first Ultra HD player released as well, to be able to utilize my 143" 2.35:1 screen to the max. Unfortunately only if they can restrain themselves from incorporating this controlling sh*t!

[bruceames]

Originally Posted by rdodolak

DVDs are currently 18 years old and the general public seem to still be buying them up. I still have the DVDs that I purchased many of which aren't available on BD.

If the studios do want to sell these at a premium price I'd expect much more, not less, in return for that investment. Any scheme which has the potential to lessen the useful life of a disc isn't worth the additional premium.

Bottom line is that the studios are going to do what they're going to do. Not enough of a potential market for them to have to compromise their position. So no point in preemptive worrying because it's not going to change anything, and certainly no point in recovering the same ground with the same arguments. We all know where we stand, and when we know exactly what the DRM will be (hopefully soon), then we can base are future buying decisions based on that. I hope there is no online DRM, but if that's the case, I don't see how the digital bridge feature (with 1:1 copies) will work effectively. So I'm sort of skeptical that it won't be included to some extent.

[raygendreau]

Originally Posted by rdodolak

What about the 5 March circulation version? There appears to be a lot of information circulating in this forum so it may be getting jumbled. I guess I'm missing where it says a disc will be required to be in the UHD player in order to playback a SFF export file on a media device?

March 5 uses the same diagram on pg 7. Look at the use cases for bound copy, device bound, media bound and domain bound. For bound copy, the disc is in the drive and you stream SFF to mobile devices in the local area. The devices will probably have to be registered and there may be a limit to the number of devices. With device bound, you can stream from the storage, either in the player if it is equipped with one or from connected external storage with the content routed through the player. The disc is not in the player for Device Bound . Media Bound covers what you are referring to, where the content is exported via a uhd card flash drive in the player. Compatible mobile devices with sd card slots will need to come to market for that option to be useful.

You might want to review the late March documents such as the 5C manufacturers response with studio edits in red. They discuss only the Media Bound and Device Bound options.

In the July 2014 BOD 45 Final Report, you might want to look at the questions posed to AACS by the BOD regarding the digital bridge being mandatory for UHD BD. The AACS proposal had it as optional. Some enterprising reporter needs to interview Matsuda or another BDA spokesperson and get more details on how the DB will work and flesh out the options available to equipment manufacturers and content providers.
I hope someone tries to pin down Panasonic and Samsung on what can be expected in the early players. Will they have sd card slots, digital bridge, internal storage, etc. I would expect the first models to fully loaded and very expensive.