When enthusiast sites fail to show any enthusiasm...

[Grubert]

Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet

Overall I agree with his position that the lack of standardized features for BD hardware is a problem. It doesn't matter if a few fans at a site like this think it's ok to read a forum for six months to figure out which overpriced BD player best stuits their needs... the average consumer assumes (as he should) that the BD hardware he buys will... well... access all standard BD features.

The real problem I have with article are criticisms of BD that don't make sense... especially in comparison with HD DVD. For instance, he criticizes the PS3 for not bitstreaming advanced audio. Well... that's not exactly a standard feature on HD DVD players either, and most HD DVD players don't internally decode DTS-HD MA.

Not to mention that one third of all HD DVD players in the US were Xbox add-ons, which only output gimped DTS versions of absolutely everything. Did he object to that?

If you are for Ultimate Audio and Video, then what's better:

Lossless audio but no PiP or Web bonus
DTS downmix audio and PiP and Web bonus

[Spankey]

David, I think you are starting to see what many of us have for awhile. There are ways to constructively criticize. That is not what most AV sites and this Ultimate AV piece are doing. They are trying to tear down and find fault. No piece of AV equipment has ever been perfect. Either was SD DVD. To mislead consumers into thinking they are getting an inferior format compared to HD-DVD is just plain wrong.

[patrick99]

Originally Posted by Grubert

It never ends.

Now it's Ultimate AV magazine writer Scott Wilkinson:

http://blog.ultimateavmag.com/scottw.../032408bluray/

And we foolishly thought the format war ended when Toshiba pulled the plug.

[dialog_gvf]

Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet

Overall I agree with his position that the lack of standardized features for BD hardware is a problem.

Versus the standardized download offerings?

In the end EVERY Blu-ray player will play EVERY movie. And some will do some other stuff.

When will I be able to walk into Best Buy and purchase a Panasonic download media player and use it to merely watch movies from Xbox Live AND iTunes AND VuDu AND ... ?

Doesn't this demand for uniformity risk the BDA members refusing to ever expand the spec because of fear of campaigns such as the one you're on now?

Why should they ever consider 3D if the demand will be for it to be mandatory on all future players? And, if they did consider it, would that get us the best 3D possible (e.g. dual 40Mbps video decode and a 3x transfer rate) or a crappy low cost least common denominator solution?

BD-Live has a 1GB persistent requirement. Do you think that would been so high if BD-Live was FGP?

Gary

[scott1256ca]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but TrueHD and DTS HDMA on HD DVD were only required to put out 2.0, yes? And as has already been pointed out the xbox add on, which was nearly 1/2 the players could decode, but had no way to output the audio. Isn't it 2.0 analog or no lossless? Where is the complaint about that? Where is the complaint that HD DVD didn't make that many disks available with lossless? The first gen Toshiba couldn't pass either DTS HDMA or Dolby TrueHD as bitstream either could it? So why single out the PS3?

It is so easy for these clowns to write negative pieces and get some attention. It is far more difficult to get attention with a positive piece. That is why you see them writing the negative ones. It is easy, and they aren't willing to put effort into it.

There was a piece I read from cbc.ca earlier today, but damned if I can find it now. Not exactly accurate, but the person was basically saying that downloads were not going to be imminent, and mostly for the reasons we have all seen. I just enjoyed someone writing with a little more sanity than that AV junk.

[MatrixS2000]

Originally Posted by dialog_gvf

Versus the standardized download offerings?

You don't even have to go to a "future" scenario....every piece of electronics has additional features just like Blu-Ray players do.

There are still receiver and pre/pros out there that do not decode the HD codecs. Why is no one screaming at them for standardization?

Computers, printers, cameras, mp3 players, telephones, cellphones, the list is endless...

[PeteS]

To add some perspective:
When DVD was released most players did not support DVD-R; quality of early DVDs was shaky at best; more than a few titles were just plain badly encoded; When DVD-R and +R became widespread, they became competing standards. Good DVD players played both but many only played one and not the other, or neither; even today new DVD players are sold that don't support DVD-R at DVD's maximum bit rate. And as someone in the business, it's a real pain.

Blu-ray's advancement to profile 2.0 is nothing compared to DVD's early shortcomings, and it's not really a problem, it's a progression.

[t4murphy]

Originally Posted by CassilineKnight

You asked why?

Well personally I think it comes from the way SOME (please read NOT all) people in the Bluray camp have acted and how those actions are percieved by HD DVD owners and neutral HD enthusiasts...

Personally besides sony being involved in Bluray the only other thing that turned me off was the arrogance of some Bluray owners and the way they were so quick to attack HD DVD owners or even those who simply had the "audacity" to question any of Bluray qualities/features (or lack thereof) in the beginning.

When it comes down to it Bluray is overall a good format. However will it replace DVD? I certainly hope so now that I've invested in the format. However I won't dismiss the threat of downloads or something else...

In short if I think people who support Bluray need to start acting a lil bit more mature. Maybe its only the rabid sony/ps3 fanbase and maybe its as common as I think it is but in the end this war was VERY divisive and the wounds won't heal that quickly.

I've heard MANY HD DVD owners claim whole heartedly that they won't support Bluray no matter what despite the fact that they LOVE High Def movies.

Thats a serious problem. We NEED those people to jump on board. Its not going to happen if theres this constant bashing between the two groups...

Anyways thats my opinion. Feel free to disagree.

Still waiting patiently for those Profile 2.0 Players to come out and dazzle me...

I own one of those XBOX 360 HD players but only paid 40.00 after the fall. I am currently waiting on the Sony 350 BluRay or possibly the Sony 550 BluRay when it hit the shelfs. I like the HD format and you can grab some bargain prices on them right now. I am glad the battle is over and have no ill feelings about any of the groups unless they go radical in their debates. I too, hope that the BluRay takes off and becomes the mainstay. I only want the best quality to get the best out of my $2000 HDTV and $2000 soundsystem that I took a couple weeks to put together with all the wires, mounts and components. When you put all that cash into your personal entertainment, you want great quality. Quality speaks for itself. Whan it looks and sounds awesome its because you picked the best, not the second best. Thanks for this great website gentleman( not many women will fight over this kind of stuff!)

[Elandyll]

I love how the Ultimate AV guy uses the DVE exemple, where it is actually a glaring exemple of a botched job at a Blu Ray conversion.

Bookmarking is supported by Blu Ray players, so there was no reason to not put it in.
TrueHD 6.1 (or 7.1 for that matter) is supported by Blu Ray players as an option (just like many HD DVD titles do not bring TrueHD but DD+), so -WHY- did they put in a 5.1 TrueHD, while the HD DVD version has a 6.1 ?

The War is over, but apparently for some people it still ain't.

[Grubert]

Article on the Seattle Times (I repeat, Seattle ):

Blu-ray bound? Why you might want to wait

[scott1256ca]

I've seen other things posted from the Seattle Times that were less than complimentary to BD. At least this one isn't saying wait for downloads.

And the major reason they give is holding off for price drops. Are there people who haven't figured out yet that technology gets cheaper with time? Of course BD will have larger cuts than most CE equipment in the next couple of years.

What I found funny was the statement that recently dvd players have not needed many firmware updates. How many players did even at the peak? For the most part, what was there to update?

But what pisses me off is this same BS that there is minimal PQ difference between BD and dvd. I have the superbit dvd Knights Tale. One of the best PQ dvds I ever owned. I also have the BD Knights Tale. Among the worst PQ BD's I own, and widely dumped on in the reviews. Any idiot could see that the BD has better PQ, in an AB comparison, and not by just a little. Of course this is on my 1080p projector with an anamorphic lens, not a 27" display or anything, but still, what is this constant droning on that implies you shouldn't buy a BD player unless you have at least a 50" display? So I guess by that logic, nobody with a <= 27" TV 5 years ago should have bought dvd, because the diff in PQ from VHS movies wasn't that noticeable?

[Grubert]

I think I should unstick this thread, but feel free to post to it if you find any relevant articles.

[Teazle]

Originally Posted by scott1256ca

... but still, what is this constant droning on that implies you shouldn't buy a BD player unless you have at least a 50" display? So I guess by that logic, nobody with a <= 27" TV 5 years ago should have bought dvd, because the diff in PQ from VHS movies wasn't that noticeable?

And another thing, that stupid 50" rule keeps going up. Recently I read a comparison review (can't remember where, was it Home Theatre Mag Online or similar?) where it was insinuated that at 50" 720p ought to be all you need since (they showed with examples) a 720p 50" high-contrast Pio plasma looks better than a 1080p 50" low-contrast LCD. That's true, but it certainly doesn't follow that 1080p is useless at 50".

Even at 46" or 42", what if the display owner wants to play some 1080p games? Gamers tend to sit closer when gaming than when watching movies (I know I'm always dragging my armchair back and forth). So even if a person sits farther back than "optimal" for movies it doesn't mean the extra res on a small panel always goes to waste.

[Grubert]

Uh oh...

Latest editorial from Home Media Magazine:

A Disturbing Lull for Blu-ray

Excerpts:

Blu-ray Disc format backers may be blowing an opportunity.

We’ve hit a lull in the Blu-ray push. It’s almost enough to make you wish for the old days of competition with HD DVD. At least that would give the Blu-ray format backers some reason to make some definitive moves.

Right now, things are in limbo, with retailers waiting for the updated Blu-ray players from manufacturers to hit.

“BD player prices remain high and supplies are limited,” said Applied Business Intelligence analyst Steve Wilson in a recent report. “This is good for the market because most current players do not support all [disc] functions.”

Good? I beg to differ. I see it as a potentially damaging loss of momentum.

Indeed, a recent NPD report found sales of standalone (non PlayStation 3) Blu-ray players fell 40% from January to February in the United States and only saw a 2% increase from February to March.

Along with high player prices — which Walt Disney Co. chief Robert Iger noted need to drop to $300 — the lack of upgraded, fully functional Blu-ray Players (with picture-in-picture and other capabilities) has kept format growth subdued. [...]

The third-generation players do seem to be on the way. [...] [Player] prices aren’t exactly cheap, and not even close to Iger’s $300 tipping point.

Here’s hoping it’s not too little, too late.

After beating rival HD DVD, the Blu-ray format seems to have lost its drive. Blu-ray backers better find that drive again quickly — or they will find consumers are going to stick with DVD.

Firstly, in January there were reports of display/player bundles, which helped increase player sales (see here). Without any such offers in February, it is no surprise that standalone player sales decrease.

Also, we are fixating on the same data point we were steered towards in the height of the HD DVD/BD propaganda war: standalone players as sole indicators of the health of the format. But it so happens that the PS3 is a very worthy option for a BD player. So much so that it has been recommended for custom installers instead of other, more expensive players. The public is aware of that, and many are buying PS3s to play BD on. So why not even mention them? How were PS3 sales in January/February*? Isn't that another relevant data point?

Additionally, how were software and hardware sales last year? I know that movie sales were about 30k-60k per week, and we are now consistently at 3x-4x that.

Anyway, I'm glad there are now under $300 players out there. Although the doomsayers will retort they don't count because they haven't Ethernet.

Oh, and I don't agree with the 'lull' idea either - Universal gave specific BD titles in mid April. Paramount two weeks later. Criterion, the ones who said they were waiting for a resolution before announcing anything, finally did last week. That's the three remaining studio holdouts announcing support in the space of less than a month. A lull? Gimme a break.

* January 269K, February 280K if you must know.

[jkwest]

Amazing isn't it?!

I can't believe some analysts are still refusing to accept the PS3 as a capable blu-ray player....it's just stupid.

[scragham]

Originally Posted by jkwest

Amazing isn't it?!

I can't believe some analysts are still refusing to accept the PS3 as a capable blu-ray player....it's just stupid.

well, that's the problem with sony making a (fairly) comprehensive home entertainment machine, especially when it's branded as a playstation. it upsets conventional thinking and there will always be some who are incapable of embracing the paradigm because they can't get past it's lineage as a playstation games console.

[Anthony P]

HMM is an odd magazine one week it makes sense and then the next it is "doom and gloom" for BD based on some delusional conclusions.

[Canada]

Originally Posted by NutsAboutPS3

Because Toshiba will make more profit if people keep buying DVDs rather than Blu-rays. Hence them spreading their FUD that upconverting is the way forward and there is no quality advantage for Blu-ray.

Personally I think the upconverting thing is hilarious. Nobody ever claims you don't need a 12MP camera because you can just upconvert a 2MP image in photoshop, but that is precisely what Toshiba are claiming they can do. If you can multiply the resolution by 6 and give the same result as a native image of the higher resolution, what is stopping you from doing it again, and again, and again? If it were possible to do such a thing, you would be able to create gigapixel images from a 2MP camera, but IT CAN'T BE DONE. That is why CSI is fiction not reality when you see them endlessly zooming in on images.

If Toshiba thought upconverted DVD was so good why the need to put out HD DVD's and HD DVD players then.

[Canada]

I have never understood the argument that Blu Ray players are too expensive. People who have HDTV's probably dropped a pretty pennie to get them. I would think most people who have an HDTV now are thinking about buying a Blu Ray player. Yeah the disks are expensive I agree, but they are way less expensive than buying a new DVD and then buying the same movie in Blu Ray two years down the road!

[elmo]

Originally Posted by Canada

I have never understood the argument that Blu Ray players are too expensive. People who have HDTV's probably dropped a pretty pennie to get them. I would think most people who have an HDTV now are thinking about buying a Blu Ray player. Yeah the disks are expensive I agree, but they are way less expensive than buying a new DVD and then buying the same movie in Blu Ray two years down the road!

i no i bought my hdtv and ps3 at t same time (i didnt c t point in havin a hdtv wi no hd source lol). yea t discs r expensive but theres a big diff in dvd and blu ray if uv a tv bigger than 37".