Physical & Digital EST: The Future of Home Video Discussion Thread

[alchav21]

Originally Posted by alchav21

You're right I'm not a Film Purist, I just enjoy all Movies from the latest ones to the Classic ones like ones from Clint Eastwood, John Wayne, Steve McQueen, and Tom Hanks. Film Grain and Black Bars don't even enter my mind anymore, I just enjoy the Movie. I do enjoy PQ and Sound, and I get all this from my Streaming experience.

Originally Posted by tele1962

There we have it another of the general public who does not care or understand how a movie should look and is quite happy to see the back of physical media. I only wish these people could be shown the difference.

This i hope does not come over the wrong way but in that case why do you post on Blu Ray.Com, surely we are here for the best viewing experience we can achieve.

I really don't understand your comment, I have been watching Movies since the '50's. Where I started late night with my Mom watching Clark Gable. As you can tell from my Avatar, I'm a Vietnam Veteran and flew BirdDogs out of Chu Lai and Da Nang. All influenced by Movies, like Flying Tigers, Airport, and Blue Max. I'm on this Site because I enjoy Movies for what they are, and even though I look for excellent PQ and Sound I'm not obsessed with all the fine details. I retired from a Telco, so I know a little about Infrastructure like Fiber. Streaming Video under the right circumstances can achieve full PQ and Sound for any Physical Media. This is the message I am trying to bring forward.

[alchav21]

Originally Posted by stonesfan129

It depends on the display one has too. Even on my little 24" 1080P LED Samsung monitor, the difference between a Blu-ray and anything less is night and day. I can't notice huge differences in the sound other than that the HD tracks are clearer and have more "oomph." But when the video is compressed, you can easily see the loss of film grain and fine details in the picture. With extreme examples, it's also very easy to see artifacts such as banding in dark areas.

You have to be kidding me, Streaming to your Computer Monitor and HDTV are extremely different. So it all depends on your Streaming Device, Access, Connection, and Bandwidth. I have a 62" HDTV connected to my Panasonic Blu-ray Player with HDMI, which is Hard Wired to a Fiber Feed Switch. I watch HDX Movies with great PQ and Sound with no Artifacts, Banding, or Dark Area problems.

[stonesfan129]

Originally Posted by alchav21

You have to be kidding me, Streaming to your Computer Monitor and HDTV are extremely different. So it all depends on your Streaming Device, Access, Connection, and Bandwidth. I have a 62" HDTV connected to my Panasonic Blu-ray Player with HDMI, which is Hard Wired to a Fiber Feed Switch. I watch HDX Movies with great PQ and Sound with no Artifacts, Banding, or Dark Area problems.

How close are you to the screen? I'm ~4' away from my computer monitor, 8' away from my TV. On my computer screen, difference is night and day between Blu-ray and more compressed formats. On my TV, not really noticeable at all.

[Mr Kite]

Originally Posted by alchav21

I really don't understand your comment, I have been watching Movies since the '50's. Where I started late night with my Mom watching Clark Gable. As you can tell from my Avatar, I'm a Vietnam Veteran and flew BirdDogs out of Chu Lai and Da Nang. All influenced by Movies, like Flying Tigers, Airport, and Blue Max. I'm on this Site because I enjoy Movies for what they are, and even though I look for excellent PQ and Sound I'm not obsessed with all the fine details. I retired from a Telco, so I know a little about Infrastructure like Fiber. Streaming Video under the right circumstances can achieve full PQ and Sound for any Physical Media. This is the message I am trying to bring forward.

My comment is about watching a film as intended, correct ratio and many other things make up excellent PQ with often many laborious hours spent getting them right, so as films from the likes of Clark Gable can look their best and how the director original envisaged how he wanted them to look.

By going digital you are removing that choice and are in the hands of the provider you are watching the movie through. These providers will never fund a restoration or particularly care about the original look of a movie because they know the vast majority of people simply do not care (i see that in AV equipment shops all the time).

No matter what you say your streaming of movies is not Blu Ray quality, that still has a long way to go.

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/vbimgh...mg&imgid=10617

[alchav21]

Originally Posted by alchav21

I really don't understand your comment, I have been watching Movies since the '50's. Where I started late night with my Mom watching Clark Gable. As you can tell from my Avatar, I'm a Vietnam Veteran and flew BirdDogs out of Chu Lai and Da Nang. All influenced by Movies, like Flying Tigers, Airport, and Blue Max. I'm on this Site because I enjoy Movies for what they are, and even though I look for excellent PQ and Sound I'm not obsessed with all the fine details. I retired from a Telco, so I know a little about Infrastructure like Fiber. Streaming Video under the right circumstances can achieve full PQ and Sound for any Physical Media. This is the message I am trying to bring forward.

Originally Posted by tele1962

My comment is about watching a film as intended, correct ratio and many other things make up excellent PQ with often many laborious hours spent getting them right, so as films from the likes of Clark Gable can look their best and how the director original envisaged how he wanted them to look.

By going digital you are removing that choice and are in the hands of the provider you are watching the movie through. These providers will never fund a restoration or particularly care about the original look of a movie because they know the vast majority of people simply do not care (i see that in AV equipment shops all the time).

No matter what you say your streaming of movies is not Blu Ray quality, that still has a long way to go.

A lot of what you say makes some sense, but Vudu is trying to make it all right. I just did a D2D of Hombre in HDX, and I'll be watching it tonight. I have a lot of the Old Classics, and I think Vudu does a fantastic job with these Films. Like I have said before, it's all Digital now, so Blu-ray or Digital HD will be one in the same.

As for Streaming Quality, maybe in the UK it has a long way to go but here in The States, especially with Vudu it's here now. If you agree Streaming Blu-ray Files from a Home Network has the same PQ and Sound as a Blu-ray Disc. Then Streaming HDX at the highest BitRate from a Vudu Server on an Intra-Net would have the same Blu-ray Disc Quality. This is what I am tring to say, the Streaming possibilities are endless!

[hanshotfirst1138]

It would help if Vudu and Walmart didn't have quite possibly the worst customer service in recorded history. They've deleted my whole disc-to-digital queue TWICE now when I've gone in for in-store D2D, two stores told me that they didn't do it when I got there in spite of calling ahead, and some do the discs in my queue I sold because I was going to convert them. It's some of the most spectacular incompetence I've ever seen! The "beta" D2D is wonky at best at home, and good blanking luck trying to find a Walmart employee who knows how it works.

[alchav21]

Originally Posted by hanshotfirst1138

It would help if Vudu and Walmart didn't have quite possibly the worst customer service in recorded history. They've deleted my whole disc-to-digital queue TWICE now when I've gone in for in-store D2D, two stores told me that they didn't do it when I got there in spite of calling ahead, and some do the discs in my queue I sold because I was going to convert them. It's some of the most spectacular incompetence I've ever seen! The "beta" D2D is wonky at best at home, and good blanking luck trying to find a Walmart employee who knows how it works.

I really don't know what you are talking about, Vudu has been outstanding with my Collection which is at around 400. I only had one problem, and they took care of it right away. Their In-Store D2D is not the best, but depending on who you get they try. I suggest you stay with VuduToGo, and their latest home version. I keep saying that depending on your set up and connection, with enough Bandwidth Blu-ray Disc and HDX is Seamless.

[hanshotfirst1138]

Originally Posted by alchav21

I really don't know what you are talking about, Vudu has been outstanding with my Collection which is at around 400. I only had one problem, and they took care of it right away. Their In-Store D2D is not the best, but depending on who you get they try. I suggest you stay with VuduToGo, and their latest home version. I keep saying that depending on your set up and connection, with enough Bandwidth Blu-ray Disc and HDX is Seamless.

Their in-home D2D is nice when I works, but when it doesn't, you're SOL unless you go to the store for their horrific service. That said, when it does, it's pretty cool. I don't think that HDX measures up to Blu-Ray, but it does certainly look far better than I ever imagined that streaming could look. It's definitely cool and has its perks, but the in-home version is apparently going to be Beta forever and man alive is it annoying when it doesn't.

[Cranston37]

Originally Posted by hanshotfirst1138

It would help if Vudu and Walmart didn't have quite possibly the worst customer service in recorded history. They've deleted my whole disc-to-digital queue TWICE now when I've gone in for in-store D2D, two stores told me that they didn't do it when I got there in spite of calling ahead, and some do the discs in my queue I sold because I was going to convert them. It's some of the most spectacular incompetence I've ever seen! The "beta" D2D is wonky at best at home, and good blanking luck trying to find a Walmart employee who knows how it works.

Oh, I have that beat, hands down.

A few years ago I took a few titles into WalMart that I couldn't get to work at home, and the employee at the photo booth thing threatened to call the police because she said "what you're asking me to do is illegal! These are copyrighted movies!" She literally called the store manager who said they would not call the police but told me if I came back it would be trespassing.

[stonesfan129]

They need to do away with the DRM on digital downloads. Or make ripping/converting and the tools to do it, legal.

[alchav21]

Originally Posted by stonesfan129

They need to do away with the DRM on digital downloads. Or make ripping/converting and the tools to do it, legal.

Like I said, the Digital Downloads are compressed and do have restrictions. It's better to Rip and Back-up your Blu-rays with good software like DVDFab, than to Download Movies. If you have a good set up and enough Bandwidth, Streaming HDX Movies is becoming Seamless as compared to Blu-ray Disc.

[rui no onna]

For movies and TV shows I intend to keep and rewatch, I buy physical media. For everything else, there's Netflix, HBO Now and Amazon Prime.

I rip my purchased BDs to movie-only MKV (MakeMKV, no re-encoding, takes about 30 minutes per disc). I keep the MKV files on the Plex Media Server for a Netflix-like experience while keeping full Blu-ray quality video and audio. Bonus, less likelihood of scratching the discs due to multiple viewings. Caveat is I still have to pop the discs in the PS3/PS4 if I want to play extras.

When you "purchase" a movie from online services such as Vudu, iTunes, etc, you're really just licensing the movie and the content provider can pull it at any time. The DRM used also tend to be more intrusive and is sometimes tied to the hardware. I use UV and iTunes codes when available and make use of Vudu's D2D service but I wouldn't rely on them for stuff I want to keep.

I reckon subscription streaming services such as Netflix are the real bane of physical media and not the pay per movie ones such as Vudu and iTunes. Why pay $15-20 for a single movie when a $10/month Netflix subscription will let you watch dozens?

Originally Posted by knight17

Higher bit-rate is a possibility but it could never match the quality of a blu-ray. If it were to do so, each movie on a BD-50 should be around 45GB (streaming or downloading size) and each movie on a BD-25 should be around 20GB in size.

The servers need to be able to hold these file sizes regardless of it being streamed or downloaded. Now try multiplying that with all of the movies on offer and one can see that is not the case. The best possible scenario would mean it be compressed to around 15GB or less.

HD Streaming will never match what Blu ray offers.

4K UHD Streaming will never match what 4K UHD Blu ray offers.

Storage isn't a problem. Streaming services actually store multiple copies of their movies because buying more storage is far more efficient and cost-effective than doing on-the-fly transcoding for clients with varying playback devices and bandwidth. I remember reading somewhere that Netflix has like 40 encoded versions of each video.

Besides, unless it's a 3D movie, the actual movie with one lossless audio track typically occupies just 25-35GB. The additional audio tracks and special features tend to use a good chunk of space in a 2D Blu-ray disc.

Bandwidth is really the biggest limitation. I know some areas have gigabit fiber so streaming 36 Mbps (Blu-ray 1x speed) is actually possible. However, can you imagine the bandwidth required if the millions of people who use streaming services all get Blu-ray quality streams at 20-30Mbps? There's also the additional networking and I/O strain that will put on streaming providers.

[Mr Kite]

I reckon subscription streaming services such as Netflix are the real bane of physical media and not the pay per movie ones such as Vudu and iTunes. Why pay $15-20 for a single movie when a $10/month Netflix subscription will let you watch dozens?

Better still buy the Blu Ray and see it as it was supposed to be seen.

[rui no onna]

Originally Posted by tele1962

Better still buy the Blu Ray and see it as it was supposed to be seen.

Technically, wouldn't that mean watching the movies in theaters? Unless, of course, one has a dedicated theater room and high end setup at home.

For the movie purists here, sure, Blu-ray is worth the additional cost. Joe Public? I know several people who prefer to watch in zoom or stretch mode to get rid of letterboxing/pillarboxing.

[Mr Kite]

Originally Posted by rui no onna

Technically, wouldn't that mean watching the movies in theaters? Unless, of course, one has a dedicated theater room and high end setup at home.

For the movie purists here, sure, Blu-ray is worth the additional cost. Joe Public? I know several people who prefer to watch in zoom or stretch mode to get rid of letterboxing/pillarboxing.

No not really, just viewing blu ray with some basic calibration and 1080p will be a good start, much better than compressed streaming?

[alchav21]

Originally Posted by rui no onna

Technically, wouldn't that mean watching the movies in theaters? Unless, of course, one has a dedicated theater room and high end setup at home.

For the movie purists here, sure, Blu-ray is worth the additional cost. Joe Public? I know several people who prefer to watch in zoom or stretch mode to get rid of.

Originally Posted by tele1962

No not really, just viewing blu ray with some basic calibration and 1080p will be a good start, much better than compressed streaming?

Here we go again with some outdated Compressed Streaming comments. Granted Downloads are Compressed, but Vudu HDX Streaming depends on your Set up and connection Speed. The BitRate has been going up to match Blu-ray Quality. Fiber ISP's, here in The States, have been working with Streaming Providers for Seamless Access to their Servers.

[rui no onna]

Originally Posted by alchav21

Here we go again with some outdated Compressed Streaming comments. Granted Downloads are Compressed, but Vudu HDX Streaming depends on your Set up and connection Speed. The BitRate has been going up to match Blu-ray Quality. Fiber ISP's, here in The States, have been working with Streaming Providers for Seamless Access to their Servers.

Unfortunately, even in the US, fiber isn't available everywhere. Also, net neutrality might put a damper on those efforts.

Strictly speaking, Blu-ray also uses lossy compression. Uncompressed 1080p24 YV12 clocks in at around 71MB/s (yes, megabytes) so that's roughly 250GB per hour. Depending on source complexity, lossless compression might bring that down to ~40-70% but that's still ~100-175GB per hour.

Make no mistake, Blu-ray is also lossy. It's just that bitrates used are high enough (~20-30Mbps average bitrate) that a proper encode should be fairly transparent compared to the source and should have minimal or no noticeable encoding artifacts.

I checked Vudu's website and their minimum internet speed for 1080p HDX is 4.5Mbps and 4K UHD is 11Mbps. One article I found mentioned 9Mbps average bitrate for HDX. That's still considerably lower than Blu-ray so there's probably going to be some detail loss.

That said, the article is old and perhaps Vudu has increased their bitrates more recently. My only experience with Vudu is streaming to an iPad during long car rides (ergo bandwidth limited by cellular data). I haven't really tried Vudu playback via the PS3/PS4 (AppleTV4 doesn't have a Vudu app yet).

Aside from cost and studio restrictions though, there's nothing inherently stopping VOD services from providing the same or even better than Blu-ray quality at least to customers who have fast enough internet or are willing to wait hours for their downloads to finish.

Kaleidescape already provides Blu-ray quality movies and 4K UHD with Atmos. Alas, if only I had the $30K to spend on a Kscape system and another $1M or so for a house with a dedicated theater room to do it justice.

[Blu Dude]

I do both kinda, I buy physical, rip the MKV file and use my private Plex server as my own mini netflix minus the ads and garbage shows & movies I'll never watch.

So I have my physical media and can stream my physical media from anywhere in the world as well, plus all of my music CD's are on there as well, so I can listen to music or watch my movies & tv shows. Hardrives are cheap enough nowadays that 17-30GB movies are nothing anymore, and DVD's are anywhere from 3-8GB or so. I have around 40GB of movies currently and plan to add more once the Christmas deals on hardrives come along.

[GuyIncognito]

I just wanted to reiterate my thoughts on this in light of recent events. I've always said digital is obviously more convenient for extremely large collections, but my preference will always be physical. Case in point...hurricane Matthew. I have had power through that storm this entire time (except for a one and a half hour window) but my internet/TV has been down for three days now. I can't stream anything. Luckily I have physical movies to keep me occupied. I will never consider a digital library to truly be considered "ownership" when you also rely on a secondary service to access it.

[ChrisOz]

Originally Posted by GuyIncognito

I just wanted to reiterate my thoughts on this in light of recent events. I've always said digital is obviously more convenient for extremely large collections, but my preference will always be physical. Case in point...hurricane Matthew. I have had power through that storm this entire time (except for a one and a half hour window) but my internet/TV has been down for three days now. I can't stream anything. Luckily I have physical movies to keep me occupied.

At the same time, a hurricane could roll through your house and destroy your physical movie collection, whereas a hurricane would do nothing to a digital collection.

I'm playing devil's advocate here, but of course physical media wins out for me too. I agree that ownership is having a copy on the shelf.