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Old 10-09-2019, 12:17 AM   #18341
nonametofame nonametofame is online now
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Hello, I was hoping some people in here could give me their thoughts on my situation. I have 2X 10 inch Klipsch subs that are not cranked very loud. I use them for mid range chest kicking. For my low end, I have two 15 inch Klipsch subs. They were the first 15's that Klipsch made. Back before they colored their subs gold. One of my 15 inch subs died and I have been looking to upgrade my 15 inch subs.

I liked the Klipsch subs that I had but I have to admit that anything under 18Hz would drop off and the sub box could not handle the signal. I would get lots of chuffing and box vibration.

I'm using 6X Klipsch RP8000F towers and an RP504C center channel with 4X RP140 height channels.

According to the SVS web site, I should pair these speakers with a PB16-Ultra.

I can afford one of these but not two of them. My question is this.

Should I buy 1 PB16 Ultra or 2X Monolith 15's? They cost about the same and I have heard good things about both brands of subs. It looks like the PB16 goes a little lower and has a much higher peak power rating on the amp but 2X monoliths would give me two large boxes that could probably match the PB16 for low end base extension.

Does anybody have an experience with both subs or any insight about quality or features that I may be overlooking?

1 Monoprice Monolith could outperform a PB3000. So 2x of each would give the same result.
2 Monoprice Monolith's could out perform a PB4000 and I can't afford 2X PB 4000.
So that leaves me with 1 PB 16 Ultra vs 2 Monolith's.
I'm leaning toward the Monolith's because 2 subs would give better coverage but I have heard that the PB16 Ultra is a monster and that is why I'm asking for opinions.
If spacing isn't an issue, you should stick with your dual sub setup. The dual Monoliths should serve as a significant upgrade, and the flexibility of 2 subs, should provide more even bass for multiple viewing positions, and a flatter response curve, helping to negate peaks and lulls in your bass frequencies.

If your budget allows, then absolutely get a PB 16 today, with plans of a future second add on later.

I went from dual Hsu 15" subs to now dual PB-16s, and so far it's absolutely overkill. The built in app with DSPs help with blending them, but I have a smaller listening room, so one is more than sufficient.
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Old 10-09-2019, 10:01 PM   #18342
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Thanks for the input. I was leaning towards the monolith but after another day of research I think I'm sold on them. The Monolith can push 14Hz-300Hz at reference levels. The PB16 can push 13Hz-300Hz at the same reference levels.

I can't see spending 2x as much for a 1Hz advantage. The real benefit of the PB16 Ultra is it's more powerful amp which allows it to push the same frequencies at the same quality levels at higher decibel levels. That's great but the Monolith has THX Ultra Certification so you are not likely to notice the difference until the room size exceeds 3000 square feet or you listen at levels higher than reference. My Room is 2600 square ft and I usually listen at -5db to -10db.

The PB 16 Ultra is obviously the better sub but it costs 2x as much and doesn't offer any real advantages over the monolith in medium and small rooms. If I had a 5000 sq ft room then I would consider buying a PB16 Ultra now and another later but for my situation it's just way too much money for negligible benefits. Sticking with two subs is the way to go either way though and dual monoliths should be slightly overkill for my room with an 11Hz low end extension which is great performance and amazing price considering the other options on the market at the moment.

Last edited by the_sextein; 10-09-2019 at 10:17 PM.
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Old 10-11-2019, 10:52 PM   #18343
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Originally Posted by the_sextein View Post
Thanks for the input. I was leaning towards the monolith but after another day of research I think I'm sold on them. The Monolith can push 14Hz-300Hz at reference levels. The PB16 can push 13Hz-300Hz at the same reference levels.

I can't see spending 2x as much for a 1Hz advantage. The real benefit of the PB16 Ultra is it's more powerful amp which allows it to push the same frequencies at the same quality levels at higher decibel levels. That's great but the Monolith has THX Ultra Certification so you are not likely to notice the difference until the room size exceeds 3000 square feet or you listen at levels higher than reference. My Room is 2600 square ft and I usually listen at -5db to -10db.

The PB 16 Ultra is obviously the better sub but it costs 2x as much and doesn't offer any real advantages over the monolith in medium and small rooms. If I had a 5000 sq ft room then I would consider buying a PB16 Ultra now and another later but for my situation it's just way too much money for negligible benefits. Sticking with two subs is the way to go either way though and dual monoliths should be slightly overkill for my room with an 11Hz low end extension which is great performance and amazing price considering the other options on the market at the moment.
Great follow up post! I agree with everything you said, and though I don't have personal experience with the M-15s, I have no doubt they will be fantastic sounding, and exceed your expectations.

Having owned the SVS subs now, I do understand the value proposition. Their customer service is world class. One of my subs was purchased open box, and didn't come with a remote. They sent one no questions asked, and will be fully backing the 5 year warranty, including shipping BOTH ways. That's quite generous considering it's over 200 lbs in its original box, and 5 years is tremendous peace of mind, considering the investment.

SVS subs do truly feel like a "premium" product. I've owned several brands of subs over the years, 1st generation Hsu, SVS, Velodyne, and more recently, Klipsch, Hsu current generation, and full circle back to the SVS. All previous subs were just large, bland black boxes, that never stood out, or were eye pleasing. The styling of the PB 16 are a game changer in that aspect. Also, I didn't think it would be valuable, but the SVS built-in DSP helped me to achieve a decently flat curve, confirmed via REW, running the subs in tandem, which was difficult in my room layout.

Is it worth that extra price? Not if you're trying to achieve best bang for buck, I would consider the Hsu subs, or the M-15s. But keep in mind subs like the PB 16 and M-15s are tuned to be ultra low. They sacrifice output in the midbass levels to achieve that. At least in my setup, my Hsu's were more potent in the 40-60hz range, and sounded more musical, but lacked that insane ultra low frequency most crave. It sounds like that's what you're looking to achieve so the M-15s appear to fit the bill in every way.
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Old 10-12-2019, 08:35 PM   #18344
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I actually ended up purchasing 2X PSA V1812 subs instead. They are brand new 18 inch neo drivers that can be pre-ordered direct. They only cost me $150 more than the monoliths in total due to the pre order discount. The low end for a single V1812 has a 16hz response with a+ or -3b response. In room low end extension is 14hz down to 11hz and the boosted db slam in the 30-50hz range from the 18 inch woofers is going to be killer, especially with two of them.

I can appreciate aesthetics but my tastes must be strange. I actually think the monolith design is the best looking sub because I like it's bold, intimidating look but it sure is big. The PB16 Ultra is more flashy and furniture grade, refined. The PSA V1812's that I ordered are very bland looking in my opinion but they have smaller cabinets than the monolith and weigh less. Performance is all I really care about though. It's going in a dedicated theater room and all of my equipment and furniture is plain black wood and leather.

The SPA 1812's can be loaded with calibration software but I chose to pass on the added expense because my Denon amp's Audyssey XT32 can do the job so I'm covered there. I think the 1812's will work out best for me and my setup. Now I'm just waiting in anticipation.

Last edited by the_sextein; 10-12-2019 at 11:35 PM.
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Old 10-15-2019, 02:02 AM   #18345
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the_sextein View Post
I actually ended up purchasing 2X PSA V1812 subs instead. They are brand new 18 inch neo drivers that can be pre-ordered direct. They only cost me $150 more than the monoliths in total due to the pre order discount. The low end for a single V1812 has a 16hz response with a+ or -3b response. In room low end extension is 14hz down to 11hz and the boosted db slam in the 30-50hz range from the 18 inch woofers is going to be killer, especially with two of them.

I can appreciate aesthetics but my tastes must be strange. I actually think the monolith design is the best looking sub because I like it's bold, intimidating look but it sure is big. The PB16 Ultra is more flashy and furniture grade, refined. The PSA V1812's that I ordered are very bland looking in my opinion but they have smaller cabinets than the monolith and weigh less. Performance is all I really care about though. It's going in a dedicated theater room and all of my equipment and furniture is plain black wood and leather.

The SPA 1812's can be loaded with calibration software but I chose to pass on the added expense because my Denon amp's Audyssey XT32 can do the job so I'm covered there. I think the 1812's will work out best for me and my setup. Now I'm just waiting in anticipation.
Congrats on the purchase. That's an awesome choice, and I'm glad to see more audio enthusiasts experiment and invest in different brands. Please keep me posted on when you get them, and your results. I'm not sure if anybody else is following this discussion, so we can move it to PM since we are venturing too far off topic. I'd love to see your set up, and how you plan to implement the subs in your particular set up. Cheers.
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Old 10-17-2019, 03:45 AM   #18346
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not sure exactly which model I have, but I miss my 12 inch SVS (currently at my mom's since it would get me evicted living in an apartment).
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Old 11-15-2019, 08:37 PM   #18347
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So I currently have dual pb3000s and I am thinking of selling them and getting a single pb16 ultra. I can get a pretty big discount on it .. what are your guys thoughts ? My room is 21x17x8. I have all SVS ultra speaker setup.
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Old 11-16-2019, 12:26 AM   #18348
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So I currently have dual pb3000s and I am thinking of selling them and getting a single pb16 ultra. I can get a pretty big discount on it .. what are your guys thoughts ? My room is 21x17x8. I have all SVS ultra speaker setup.
You have a fairly large room, which is ideal for a dual or even 3 sub placement. I would sell your current PB3000s, and get a single PB 16, ONLY if you were planning on getting a 2nd PB 16 later. A second sub does so much, especially if you have multiple listening positions, and to achieve that flat frequency response. If it's a steep discount, get two now if you can.

Also, I also really dig the SVS app feature, which I didn't think I'd care for. And I think you can only get this with the PB4000 and ultra 16.
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Old 11-16-2019, 01:02 PM   #18349
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nonametofame View Post
You have a fairly large room, which is ideal for a dual or even 3 sub placement. I would sell your current PB3000s, and get a single PB 16, ONLY if you were planning on getting a 2nd PB 16 later. A second sub does so much, especially if you have multiple listening positions, and to achieve that flat frequency response. If it's a steep discount, get two now if you can.

Also, I also really dig the SVS app feature, which I didn't think I'd care for. And I think you can only get this with the PB4000 and ultra 16.
The pb3000s work with the SVS app as well.
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Old 11-18-2019, 05:18 PM   #18350
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The pb3000s work with the SVS app as well.
Have you decided your next purchase?
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Old 11-18-2019, 08:52 PM   #18351
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Have you decided your next purchase?
I keep going back and forth if I want to swap the pb3000s out for the pb16u .. cant decide. If i put the single pb16u on the side of my screen the other side is going to look so empty lol. I cant afford to buy a 2nd one currently. Maybe I would pick another one up down the road. I think one pb16u would be more than enough for my room.

Last edited by Gretiem; 11-18-2019 at 08:57 PM.
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Old 11-19-2019, 04:22 PM   #18352
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I keep going back and forth if I want to swap the pb3000s out for the pb16u .. cant decide. If i put the single pb16u on the side of my screen the other side is going to look so empty lol. I cant afford to buy a 2nd one currently. Maybe I would pick another one up down the road. I think one pb16u would be more than enough for my room.
Can you tell more more about your current setup, and what you're hoping to get out of it? The PB16 is tuned very low, so essentially you might get a little more output, and an increase in the low frequencies, 15-20hz range.

Personally, I didn't notice too big of a difference going from one to two pb16s, mainly because I don't play my movies loud enough and I have a small space. I actually miss the midbass slam that came with my earlier subs, 2 Klipsch 15" and then later two Hsu 15"s. They are not tuned that low, so had better concentration in the 30-60hz range. And they filled my space just fine.
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Old 11-19-2019, 06:01 PM   #18353
Gretiem Gretiem is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nonametofame View Post
Can you tell more more about your current setup, and what you're hoping to get out of it? The PB16 is tuned very low, so essentially you might get a little more output, and an increase in the low frequencies, 15-20hz range.

Personally, I didn't notice too big of a difference going from one to two pb16s, mainly because I don't play my movies loud enough and I have a small space. I actually miss the midbass slam that came with my earlier subs, 2 Klipsch 15" and then later two Hsu 15"s. They are not tuned that low, so had better concentration in the 30-60hz range. And they filled my space just fine.
Well my space is 2900 cubic feet. I have full svs ultra setup. I use it for 100% movies / tv shows. When I am watching movies it is usually around -15db from reference. Currently I run my dual pb3000s +4db hot from the audyssey calibration. I still dont feel any chest slam. I am running svs isolation feet on both subs and they are currently to the right and left of my display. I have not run REW or anything like that .. just run audyssey.
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Old 11-19-2019, 07:35 PM   #18354
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Couple of things to watch out for.

Is the room closed off, normal room with 4 walls? Or is your area open to rest of home? If open, can be more difficult to pressurize that space and get the in your chest feel you mention. If open, dual PB16 might be better, depends on just how open and placement of subs.

Have you tried playing some well known scenes with a lot of LFE to double check? There are many threads and posts here and on other boards referencing movie scenes to show off your subs. If you have already tried some of these and were not impressed, can you turn off your Audessy or whatever sound correction is used on your system and play the scene again without any corrections? Does the no correction applied playback sound better for LFE? If so then could be the calibration process is dialing back your lower frequencies and effectively neutering your subs. If this is the case, look into something else to dial in your subs like miniDSP and REW.
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Old 11-19-2019, 07:58 PM   #18355
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ImPulSive View Post
Couple of things to watch out for.

Is the room closed off, normal room with 4 walls? Or is your area open to rest of home? If open, can be more difficult to pressurize that space and get the in your chest feel you mention. If open, dual PB16 might be better, depends on just how open and placement of subs.

Have you tried playing some well known scenes with a lot of LFE to double check? There are many threads and posts here and on other boards referencing movie scenes to show off your subs. If you have already tried some of these and were not impressed, can you turn off your Audessy or whatever sound correction is used on your system and play the scene again without any corrections? Does the no correction applied playback sound better for LFE? If so then could be the calibration process is dialing back your lower frequencies and effectively neutering your subs. If this is the case, look into something else to dial in your subs like miniDSP and REW.

Room is closed off. Just one door and one window. I have played BR2049, Godzilla KOTM, Mad Max Fury Road, Ready Player One, Quiet Place etc. The LFE is good .. I guess I am just looking for more. I cant really do anymore testing currently cuz I have one of the subs boxed up currently. I have until tomorrow night to make my decision. The PB3000s do sound good. It is just that I am kind of trapped having duals already. I like the idea of having a big sub and then possibly adding another one down the road sometime.
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Old 11-19-2019, 08:21 PM   #18356
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Quote:
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Room is closed off. Just one door and one window. I have played BR2049, Godzilla KOTM, Mad Max Fury Road, Ready Player One, Quiet Place etc. The LFE is good .. I guess I am just looking for more. I cant really do anymore testing currently cuz I have one of the subs boxed up currently. I have until tomorrow night to make my decision. The PB3000s do sound good. It is just that I am kind of trapped having duals already. I like the idea of having a big sub and then possibly adding another one down the road sometime.
There’s always a quad option. 😜
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Old 11-19-2019, 08:49 PM   #18357
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There’s always a quad option. 😜
No room for that lol
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Old 11-20-2019, 04:59 PM   #18358
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Well my space is 2900 cubic feet. I have full svs ultra setup. I use it for 100% movies / tv shows. When I am watching movies it is usually around -15db from reference. Currently I run my dual pb3000s +4db hot from the audyssey calibration. I still dont feel any chest slam. I am running svs isolation feet on both subs and they are currently to the right and left of my display. I have not run REW or anything like that .. just run audyssey.
You have to get one of these and run REW.
https://www.minidsp.com/products/aco...urement/umik-1

It's an absolute game changer, and it will unlock the potential of your subs. I was skeptical and intimidated at first, but I find it absolutely essential. It's also quite easy to use, just check out a youtube tutorial.

Running dual subs will introduce cross cancellation of some frequency ranges, and nullify the advantages of running both if not set up properly.

If you are running both subs hot +4db, along with Dynamic EQ on (which adds like +10db) bass depending on your -db from reference, they should absolutely rock your room. My guess is that they need tuning, and it's much more flexible if you have the app, like our subs do.

Case in point, last night after running Dirac room correction, I had to further tweak my subs to get a flatter frequency response, and correct some nasty dips. I ended up with these settings:

Left sub - volume (-23), polarity (negative), phase (135), and all 3 parametric filters (including customizable Q factor)

right sub - volume (-23), polarity (negative), phase (0), and also all 3 filters, at different levels.

This is going to be highly variable depending on your setup, but I just wanted to demonstrate how much tweaking can and needs to be done to get the proper bass you want.
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Old 11-20-2019, 05:16 PM   #18359
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nonametofame View Post
You have to get one of these and run REW.
https://www.minidsp.com/products/aco...urement/umik-1

It's an absolute game changer, and it will unlock the potential of your subs. I was skeptical and intimidated at first, but I find it absolutely essential. It's also quite easy to use, just check out a youtube tutorial.

Running dual subs will introduce cross cancellation of some frequency ranges, and nullify the advantages of running both if not set up properly.

If you are running both subs hot +4db, along with Dynamic EQ on (which adds like +10db) bass depending on your -db from reference, they should absolutely rock your room. My guess is that they need tuning, and it's much more flexible if you have the app, like our subs do.

Case in point, last night after running Dirac room correction, I had to further tweak my subs to get a flatter frequency response, and correct some nasty dips. I ended up with these settings:

Left sub - volume (-23), polarity (negative), phase (135), and all 3 parametric filters (including customizable Q factor)

right sub - volume (-23), polarity (negative), phase (0), and also all 3 filters, at different levels.

This is going to be highly variable depending on your setup, but I just wanted to demonstrate how much tweaking can and needs to be done to get the proper bass you want.
I run them +4db hot .. I do not have Dynamic EQ enabled. I do plan on getting a mic and messing around with REW eventually. I am leaning towards keeping my dual subs and waiting until SVS updates the 16ultra or introduces something new. One of the main reasons I wanted to switch to the 16ultra .. besides the opppurnity to return my subs and the discount on the 16ultra is the looks. All my speakers are piano black and I hate that my current subs only come in black oak. I know it is stupid but maybe it is just my OCD.
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Old 11-20-2019, 05:48 PM   #18360
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I run them +4db hot .. I do not have Dynamic EQ enabled. I do plan on getting a mic and messing around with REW eventually. I am leaning towards keeping my dual subs and waiting until SVS updates the 16ultra or introduces something new. One of the main reasons I wanted to switch to the 16ultra .. besides the opppurnity to return my subs and the discount on the 16ultra is the looks. All my speakers are piano black and I hate that my current subs only come in black oak. I know it is stupid but maybe it is just my OCD.
We all have a bit of that OCD. I think people are motivated to get a second sub just for the visual symmetry (I am one), but I suspect many are not EQ'ing them properly.

Personally, the PB16 is the best looking sub I ever owned. It's very striking, and looks premium, which is impressive due to its massive size. I never really cared about how subs looked until I realized how nice these were.

I think the next sub they come out with will be awesome, so definitely wait if you can. But do get that U-mik. Being able to see what your subs are doing on a frequency scale visually is awesome. Having the SVS app and tuning features is even more awesome. If you like tweaking, you will probably lose many hours of your life, but be rewarded with more satisfying bass!
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