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Old 09-03-2012, 08:17 PM   #21
anthonyb anthonyb is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jw View Post
..I was thinking the same thing. Who even wastes the time to compare VHS to bluray?? They are in totally different leagues and their standards are generations apart based on their current technology at that time.
If you haven't noticed for whatever reason, it has to do with the restoration, not the format.
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Old 09-03-2012, 08:20 PM   #22
Cahleb Cahleb is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anthonyb View Post
Yeah, who cares if they tamper with the original film, scrubbing away detail to the point of which there is more on a VHS copy than on a transfer used for a Blu-ray of all formats; no one could possibly care. But we all know Gus shot first, that change is inexcusable.
like i said, nobody is forcing you to buy the blu-ray.
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Old 09-03-2012, 08:29 PM   #23
anthonyb anthonyb is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cahleb View Post
like i said, nobody is forcing you to buy the blu-ray.
I'm afraid I already did.

This situation kind of makes me think of people that wouldn't care about, hypothetically, a 16:9 film cropped to fullscreen for Blu-ray for whatever reason, as long as it looks better than previous formats. You lose detail, but hey, it's in 1080P!

Last edited by anthonyb; 09-03-2012 at 08:32 PM.
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Old 09-03-2012, 08:34 PM   #24
Lnds500 Lnds500 is offline
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Cahled you've already said that you're not into the quality debate and you don't "get" pictures mistakes etc. Maybe this thread isn't for you, no need to come here and be rude.
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Old 09-03-2012, 08:35 PM   #25
Cahleb Cahleb is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anthonyb View Post
I'm afraid I already did.

This situation kind of makes me think of people that wouldn't care about, hypothetically, a 16:9 film cropped to fullscreen for Blu-ray for whatever reason, as long as it looks better than previous formats. You lose detail, but hey, it's in 1080P!
this can't be compared to that one bit.

how are you going to compare a film being cropped to a film where a dress loses a spark on the dress?

it's ridiculous
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Old 09-03-2012, 08:37 PM   #26
Cahleb Cahleb is offline
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Originally Posted by Lnds500 View Post
Cahled you've already said that you're not into the quality debate and you don't "get" pictures mistakes etc. Maybe this thread isn't for you, no need to come here and be rude.
i'm not being rude. i still like seeing the difference in screenshots. but people complain too much. nobody will ever be truly happy with something. if it's not this, it's that. if it's not that, it's this.

and like i continue saying, for people complaining so much, nobody is at gun point being told to buy the copy.
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Old 09-03-2012, 08:44 PM   #27
Freddy2 Freddy2 is offline
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Originally Posted by miniroll32 View Post
Here are some good examples from Fantasia - a 1990 restoration that was marketed as "better than the original" - and how a print can shift from the three original nitrate negatives.

VHS Left - Blu-ray Right

[Show spoiler]



In both examples, the blue hues are completely wacked out, much in the same degree that for the Cinderella VHS, some reds had shifted beyond the original source.
Ahh... the Fantasia differences! Thanks for those pictures. A whole new Comparison discussion can be started based on just that movie...

Quote:
I'd be interested to see some LD screencaps, though.
Have you seen the two thread links I added to the opening post?... They show just what you want.
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Old 09-03-2012, 08:52 PM   #28
anthonyb anthonyb is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cahleb View Post
i'm not being rude. i still like seeing the difference in screenshots. but people complain too much. nobody will ever be truly happy with something. if it's not this, it's that. if it's not that, it's this.

and like i continue saying, for people complaining so much, nobody is at gun point being told to buy the copy.
I have virtually no complaints regarding the golden age films on Blu-ray in terms of restoration or transfers, or the other few Walt-era films that are out. However, I do with this botched, DVD-recycled restoration. This is not how the film was made, this is not how it was seen at any point in theaters, this is just a somewhat well-meaning but ultimately flawed restoration. People complained about it in 2005, people complain about it now.

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people complain too much
Welcome to the Internet.
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Old 09-03-2012, 10:39 PM   #29
miniroll32 miniroll32 is offline
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Originally Posted by Freddy2 View Post
Ahh... the Fantasia differences! Thanks for those pictures. A whole new Comparison discussion can be started based on just that movie
Fantasia's restoration is simply a marvel. Considering how poor some of the prints were prior to the Blu-ray release, it's an astonishing revelation to see much of the artwork finally 'make sense' - particularly during the Toccata and Fugue sequence, in which colour and detail has been revealed from areas that were, previously, almost pitch black from dye shift.





Again, although the 1997 Cinderella print was nowhere near as bad as this, it merely proves that one can't judge what "looks right" based on what they've been used to. I owned my Fantasia VHS since the early 90's and always believed that to be how it originally looked, as back then, we didn't know better.
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Old 09-03-2012, 10:50 PM   #30
Ernest Rister Ernest Rister is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by miniroll32 View Post
Fantasia's restoration is simply a marvel. Considering how poor some of the prints were prior to the Blu-ray release, it's an astonishing revelation to see much of the artwork finally 'make sense' - particularly during the Toccata and Fugue sequence, in which colour and detail has been revealed from areas that were, previously, almost pitch black from dye shift.





Again, although the 1997 Cinderella print was nowhere near as bad as this, it merely proves that one can't judge what "looks right" based on what they've been used to. I owned my Fantasia VHS since the early 90's and always believed that to be how it originally looked, as back then, we didn't know better.
Dude -- that's not "dye-shift" -- YCM did their Fantasia restoration work from the original negatives as well, and you even see the guys doing work on the original negatives with RAZORBLADES in the original restoration features from 1990. They "shifted" (or color timed) as much black into the movie as possible to hide the cell dust. Premiere Magazine had an extensive write up about it 22 years ago, and it is a damn shame the mag went bust, because it would be very illuminating for the present discussion.

Last edited by Ernest Rister; 09-04-2012 at 02:43 AM.
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Old 09-03-2012, 11:13 PM   #31
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I'm going to add petroleum, crude oil, and diesel to this fire!


Last edited by PuppyJonathan; 09-04-2012 at 11:14 PM. Reason: spoilers
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Old 09-04-2012, 02:07 AM   #32
Ernest Rister Ernest Rister is offline
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Originally Posted by PuppyJonathan View Post
Hey PuppyJ - that Snow White restoration would be useful for this conversation if it showed the 1987 YCM labs restoration.
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Old 09-04-2012, 02:31 AM   #33
PuppyJonathan PuppyJonathan is offline
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Originally Posted by Ernest Rister View Post
Hey PuppyJ - that Snow White restoration would be useful for this conversation if it showed the 1987 YCM labs restoration.
I didn't make those they were just videos I stumbled upon in the past month that I just posted here because I thought that would be relavent, and would there be a record of the 1987 restoration because it was never realesed on home video
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Old 09-04-2012, 02:36 AM   #34
Ernest Rister Ernest Rister is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PuppyJonathan View Post
I didn't make those they were just videos I stumbled upon in the past month that I just posted here because I thought that would be relavent, and would there be a record of the 1987 restoration because it was never realesed on home video
Yeah - shots and screenshots from the YCM version of Snow White are on the CAV 1994 laserdisc. Backgrounds so black, you can't see a thing.

Last edited by Ernest Rister; 09-04-2012 at 02:44 AM.
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Old 09-04-2012, 05:43 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by Cahleb View Post
this can't be compared to that one bit.

how are you going to compare a film being cropped to a film where a dress loses a spark on the dress?

it's ridiculous
I think your missing the point somewhat, yes no one is being forced into purchasing the movie on blu-ray, but the restoration should be done right. The colors are debatable because they used a different film print for the platinum editions. What we are complaining about is the detail, sure some of the sparkle is missing, overall it is a big thing, but you don't fully notice it unless you know about it and are looking for it. What is the problem is the bigger details, things are being over painted that shouldn't be, lines are gone. The pumpkin doesn't even have any lines! Its a little rediculous it makes it look like shes riding around in a sphere! Her dress has been painted wrong on numorous accounts both her maids dress and her ball gown. Disney really needs to fix this restoration and make it true to what it was originally intended to look like. Clearly this is the worst restoration disney has done, the colors are always debatable, detail is not. Even never knowing Walt, I'm pretty sure he would not approve of this restoration especially since this was a favorite of his.

To the OP: thank you for pointing out more pictures, i never really saw all the errors because i didn't own the platinum edition. I've seen several pictures before this over on DVDizzy, but after seeing this, it just shows how much more of a horrible job disney has done.
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Old 09-04-2012, 10:34 AM   #36
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thanks for the thread , Good job

i would love to see Snow White Comparison
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Old 09-04-2012, 11:37 AM   #37
blucrazy blucrazy is offline
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Originally Posted by wasim h View Post
thanks for the thread , Good job

i would love to see Snow White Comparison
hey cool man ur from Dubai i am from Kuwait nice to c u here
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Old 09-04-2012, 01:39 PM   #38
Freddy2 Freddy2 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PuppyJonathan View Post
Hi PuppyJonathan,

thanks for posting those video's! They really do add to our discussion here.

Looking at them, I get the feeling the general restoration quality and the way the colors matched to the original was at its worst between 2000 and 2006 or thereabout: the Platinum era, yes.
Before they often were slightly too dark, but with hardly any visible restoration done to them. Then they started to throw everything at them to make them look like "new". And starting around 2008, the beginning of the Diamond era, their skills had been improved so much, the quality was at its best so far.
So then you ask yourself: WHY did they recycle a restoration from 2005, knowing they could do so much better by now!? What a shame. This could have been such a wonderfully positive review here, Disney?...

By the way PuppyJonathan, could you maybe put those video's behind a spoiler, because they really slow the scrolling down. Thanks!

Quote:
Originally Posted by miniroll32 View Post
Fantasia's restoration is simply a marvel. Considering how poor some of the prints were prior to the Blu-ray release, it's an astonishing revelation to see much of the artwork finally 'make sense' - particularly during the Toccata and Fugue sequence, in which colour and detail has been revealed from areas that were, previously, almost pitch black from dye shift.
Yes, the Fantasia BD really does look marvelous, I agree! I sometimes had the feeling I was looking at it for the first time, seeing all kinds of details I had never seen before. On the other hand, I too had the feeling sometimes the age of the movie wasn't there anymore: it looked too good, if you know what I mean. But no real complaints there.
The sound, on the other hand, is a completely different story: they mixed it so completely wrong, it sounds like mono now. My VHS sounds a whole lot better, with beautiful stereo effects! Why is it so difficult to do things right?...

Last edited by Freddy2; 09-04-2012 at 01:49 PM.
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Old 09-04-2012, 04:22 PM   #39
disneyfreak disneyfreak is offline
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Originally Posted by Freddy2 View Post
Hi PuppyJonathan,

thanks for posting those video's! They really do add to our discussion here.

Looking at them, I get the feeling the general restoration quality and the way the colors matched to the original was at its worst between 2000 and 2006 or thereabout: the Platinum era, yes.
Before they often were slightly too dark, but with hardly any visible restoration done to them. Then they started to throw everything at them to make them look like "new". And starting around 2008, the beginning of the Diamond era, their skills had been improved so much, the quality was at its best so far.
So then you ask yourself: WHY did they recycle a restoration from 2005, knowing they could do so much better by now!? What a shame. This could have been such a wonderfully positive review here, Disney?...

By the way PuppyJonathan, could you maybe put those video's behind a spoiler, because they really slow the scrolling down. Thanks!
To be honest, I don't think people were actually very happy with the majority of the transfers. The few exceptions where i haven't read a lot of complaints about being: Aladdin, Lady and the Tramp, 101 Dalmatians, and Sleeping Beauty. I haven't really read much of anything on Snow Whites platinum transfer so i really can't say anything about it.
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Old 09-04-2012, 04:38 PM   #40
Ernest Rister Ernest Rister is offline
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Originally Posted by disneyfreak View Post
To be honest, I don't think people were actually very happy with the majority of the transfers. The few exceptions where i haven't read a lot of complaints about being: Aladdin, Lady and the Tramp, 101 Dalmatians, and Sleeping Beauty. I haven't really read much of anything on Snow Whites platinum transfer so i really can't say anything about it.
Well, people on certain forums that rhyme with "Ultimate Prisney" and "DVDSizzly" aren't ever happy about anything. The site founder waged a pissing war against Blu-Ray in the first place, with now-infamous quotes about "DVD is fine" and what not. There are certain shots in Snow White that concern me, I thought Pinocchio looked and sounded stellar, Fantasia was glorious, Dumbo looked great although with some anomalies, Bambi looked great, Alice looked great, Lady and the Tramp, Sleeping Beauty, The Rescuers and Rescuers Down Under -- all great. Some carp they could be better, and this is true, but that doesn't mean that what we have was utter crap. Some people just want Perfection, because they worship these films. Perfection is possible, but very rare, and so we learn to settle for just "very very good" and really, if you're asking for more than that, you might be asking too much.

Having a white line running up and down the side of the frame for the length of the film...THAT is unacceptable.
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