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Old 06-20-2019, 02:15 PM   #21
Steelmaker Steelmaker is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by prkchopexpress View Post
the dreamcast failed because it didn't have a dvd drive. when the ps2 had just come out, it was the cheapest did player in japan and the matrix had just come out on dvd.

all this stuff about power and marketing is garbage. the dreamcast was a fun system with a lot of great games and they all looked fantastic. arcade ports on the dreamcast looked better than ps2 counterparts.

all this talk about "people felt burned by sega" is revisionist nonsense.

there was a passionate fan base for the dreamcast, as games sold quickly. the fan able just wasn't large enough. when people had the decision "can I buy a dvd player and a console or can I buy a dvd player in a console?"

the sports 2k games that are still being made today came out on the dreamcast.
There might be some "revisionist nonsense" at play, but likewise I think you are overly romanticizing Sega and that era just a tad. There were absolutely people who felt burned by Sega. That's not a myth. I knew people personally who felt that way after the Sega CD, 32x and the Saturn.

Look, I loved the Dreamcast back when it came out. Still to this day I think it had the best launch lineup of games of any console in history. But it was never going to beat the PS2, with or without DVD. Sony had the financial clout, Sony had the marketing, Sony had the 3rd party support, and perhaps most importantly, Sony had the mindshare. I don't think merely sticking a DVD player in the Dreamcast would have overcame all that. You don't get outsold 16-1 just because of DVD. What's more, a DVD player would have driven the cost up of the Dreamcast a lot more, which would've hurt it's sales even further. Hell I think the Dreamcast controller design was more of a detriment to the console than not having a DVD player. How in hell do you not include a 2nd analogue stick when that standard had already been established the prior generation with the Dualshock 1 controller? I literally could not play Virtual On because of that terrible design!

Last edited by Steelmaker; 06-20-2019 at 02:26 PM.
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Old 06-20-2019, 02:18 PM   #22
Bolo Seagull Bolo Seagull is offline
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It is not revisionist to say that casual consumers felt burned by Sega. I had a Genesis, loved it, but it was the first and last system I bought from Sega. The 32X brought nothing to the table. The Sega CD's main selling point was FMV games, which although a big leap in technology at the time, they just weren't enjoyable to play. Sega let their big series like Sonic, Streets of Rage, Golden Axe etc go to ruin by either abandoning them or releasing weak entries. In the meantime, Sony was building up some very appealing exclusive titles/series.
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Old 06-20-2019, 02:26 PM   #23
dyne dyne is online now
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In my experience I find that most people that say they were "burned" by SEGA are usually people that never even owned a SEGA CD/32X or Saturn.

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You don't get outsold 16-1 just because of DVD.
I totally agree with all of your argument except for this (and it's really just semantics). PS2 had a much longer life so that number is a tad skewed. Both consoles actually only competed for what, less than a year? Looking at numbers the PS2 was at 24-28 million by the time SEGA pulled the plug at 9 million. (March '01)

Last edited by dyne; 06-20-2019 at 02:35 PM.
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Old 06-20-2019, 02:31 PM   #24
Steelmaker Steelmaker is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dyne View Post
In my experience I find that most people that say they were "burned" by SEGA are usually people that never even owned a SEGA CD/32X or Saturn.
I enjoyed the Saturn. Sega CD and 32X were trash. Just because Sega CD had a good Sonic game and a few good JRPG's doesn't mean it was a good add on. 32X had potential but Sega abandoned it once the Saturn launched. I can absolutely understand why people who bought Sega CD and/or 32X would feel burned by Sega.
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Old 06-20-2019, 02:37 PM   #25
dyne dyne is online now
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Originally Posted by Steelmaker View Post
I can absolutely understand why people who bought Sega CD and/or 32X would feel burned by Sega.
I can as well. My reply was that there's a lot of people that say they were burned but never bought the hardware. How can somebody be burned by something they never spent money on?
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Old 06-20-2019, 02:38 PM   #26
Steelmaker Steelmaker is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dyne View Post
I totally agree with all of your argument except for this (and it's really just semantics). PS2 had a much longer life so that number is a tad skewed. Both consoles actually only competed for what, less than a year? Looking at numbers the PS2 was at 24-28 million by the time SEGA pulled the plug at 9 million. (March '01)
That's a good point. Though I do think longevity and sustainability is part of competition. I'm not giving Sega a pass just because they pulled out of the race early. That's on them. They shouldn't have made so many terrible decisions prior to the launch of the Dreamcast in the first place. Besides, even if they did stay in the race I don't think it would've changed much. PS2 was CLEARLY the "hotness" and nothing was going to stop that momentum.
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Old 06-20-2019, 02:45 PM   #27
Bolo Seagull Bolo Seagull is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dyne View Post
I can as well. My reply was that there's a lot of people that say they were burned but never bought the hardware. How can somebody be burned by something they never spent money on?
Then just replace "burned" with "lost confidence in the brand".
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Old 06-20-2019, 02:47 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steelmaker View Post
That's a good point. Though I do think longevity and sustainability is part of competition. I'm not giving Sega a pass just because they pulled out of the race early. That's on them. They shouldn't have made so many terrible decisions prior to the launch of the Dreamcast in the first place. Besides, even if they did stay in the race I don't think it would've changed much. PS2 was CLEARLY the "hotness" and nothing was going to stop that momentum.
Oh absolutely. The PS2 launched on hype plain and simple. Eventually a stellar lineup arrived but it still amazes me how much it initially sold with the lineup it had. I remember working at Babbages/Software Etc then. Most wouldn't even buy a game. They wanted it for the DVD player.

No way would SEGA have won but had they not taken such a loss on the hardware (their attach ratio was 8-1 for the console. That's pretty amazing) I think they could have bowed out much more gracefully than they did. After this they recorded losses for 5 more years and only turned in 2003.

What's really sad is that this (to me) was really the last gen of big developers being able to take chances and make non-mainstream titles. The PS1 really started that concept, Dreamcast absolutely has SEGA churning out peak creativity and the PS2 had it's share of different titles for sure. These days everyone has to play it safe and I think (despite what the numbers show) that the industry has suffered creatively for it.

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Then just replace "burned" with "lost confidence in the brand".
Agreed. Much more accurate.
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Old 06-20-2019, 02:57 PM   #29
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In my opinion, in 1999 the console market was already saturated with PS1 & N64.

Sony had been selling PS1 worldwide since 1995. Nintendo had been selling N64 since 1996.

By the time Dreamcast arrived people with PS1 and/or N64 were anticipating PS2 & Gamecube arriving in next couple of years. They already had solid familiarity/confidence with Sony/Nintendo but Sega, while having great games, meant instability.

I got a used Dreamcast with F355 Challenge which was the best console racing game at the time, IMO. Like F355 Challenge, many of the exclusive games were superbly made but appealed to few. Who remembers Sega 'Seaman'?

Unlike Microsoft, Sega simply did not have huge amount of cash to keep the momentum going; the momentum required to build a following.
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Old 06-20-2019, 05:52 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GRD43L View Post
In my opinion, in 1999 the console market was already saturated with PS1 & N64.

Sony had been selling PS1 worldwide since 1995. Nintendo had been selling N64 since 1996.

By the time Dreamcast arrived people with PS1 and/or N64 were anticipating PS2 & Gamecube arriving in next couple of years. They already had solid familiarity/confidence with Sony/Nintendo but Sega, while having great games, meant instability.

I got a used Dreamcast with F355 Challenge which was the best console racing game at the time, IMO. Like F355 Challenge, many of the exclusive games were superbly made but appealed to few. Who remembers Sega 'Seaman'?

Unlike Microsoft, Sega simply did not have huge amount of cash to keep the momentum going; the momentum required to build a following.
In hindsight, I'm REALLY surprised that MS did not acquire Sega. It would've given MS an instant, credible Japanese developer and it may have helped Xbox gain a better foothold in Japan.
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Old 06-20-2019, 06:28 PM   #31
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I grew up as a Sega kid. I believe I had a Genesis, the Genesis Master System Power Base convertor, Sega CD, and the Saturn. At the time, it felt like Sega was more interested in developing their consoles, than further developing a library of games for each system. When going to the store to buy games, there always seemed to be so many more games for the Nintendo and Playstation systems.
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Old 06-20-2019, 06:46 PM   #32
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Sega's end began before the Dreamcast. The 32x and the Saturn were inferior products. Sega had begun milking their customers a little too hard with poor quality. IE: "You can shear a sheep many times, but skin him only once."

By the time the Dreamcast hit the market, a portion of Sega's customer base had started buying other consoles instead. Of the remaining core dreamcast buyers, another percentage of those were pirates (pirating games on the dreamcast was easy compared to other 90s consoles). Which again hurt the overall game sales in a second hurdle. Once the games sales under-performed, some of the developers stopped making Dreamcast games. Which affected the remaining Sega core gamers by giving them a console with fewer new titles on it than competing consoles. Yet another hurdle pulling the Dreamcast down. All of these factors worked in a downward spiral putting more pressure on Sega's bottom line. Which in turn meant Sega had to reduce their own offerings and support for the Dreamcast, resulting in the Dreamcast becoming an inferior product compared to other console offerings at the time. In short - the last nail.
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Old 06-20-2019, 08:16 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steelmaker View Post
In hindsight, I'm REALLY surprised that MS did not acquire Sega. It would've given MS an instant, credible Japanese developer and it may have helped Xbox gain a better foothold in Japan.
It may very well have, but I'm not surprised in retrospect at all. At least back then, Japanese companies were pretty much not for sale to foreign entities. Even today, it's a low-odds affair as I understand it.
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Old 06-21-2019, 08:34 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by Johnny Blu View Post
I grew up as a Sega kid. I believe I had a Genesis, the Genesis Master System Power Base convertor, Sega CD, and the Saturn. At the time, it felt like Sega was more interested in developing their consoles, than further developing a library of games for each system. When going to the store to buy games, there always seemed to be so many more games for the Nintendo and Playstation systems.
As a young person and heavily into sports, the Genesis was the shit! Between Joe Montana's Sports Talk Football, World Series Baseball, and NBA Jam I played my Genesis non stop. As far as I was concerned nothing on SNES could compete with that trifecta. I of course loved Sonic as well, along with other great Genesis exclusives like Gunstar Heroes, Landstalker, Castlevania Bloodlines, Mickey's Castle of Illusions, Aladdin, Virtua Racing, etc. Also, the Sega 6 button controller I thought was vastly superior to SNES controller. Especially for fighting games.
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Old 06-21-2019, 12:35 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steelmaker View Post
As a young person and heavily into sports, the Genesis was the shit! Between Joe Montana's Sports Talk Football, World Series Baseball, and NBA Jam I played my Genesis non stop. As far as I was concerned nothing on SNES could compete with that trifecta. I of course loved Sonic as well, along with other great Genesis exclusives like Gunstar Heroes, Landstalker, Castlevania Bloodlines, Mickey's Castle of Illusions, Aladdin, Virtua Racing, etc. Also, the Sega 6 button controller I thought was vastly superior to SNES controller. Especially for fighting games.
Don't forget the Mutant League series of sports games from EA!
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Old 06-21-2019, 01:21 PM   #36
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Loved Joe Montana's Sports Talk Football, can't tell you how many hours I put into that game as a kid.

I also had a Saturn, it was cool at first and released mainstream games like Tomb Raider, Resident Evil, Madden, etc. but it seemed like after a year or so the new games slowed down and PS was evolving as the console to have.
I finally switched to Sony and have not looked back since.
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Old 06-21-2019, 03:57 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by Evil_Eric View Post
Loved Joe Montana's Sports Talk Football, can't tell you how many hours I put into that game as a kid.

I also had a Saturn, it was cool at first and released mainstream games like Tomb Raider, Resident Evil, Madden, etc. but it seemed like after a year or so the new games slowed down and PS was evolving as the console to have.
I finally switched to Sony and have not looked back since.
I had both, so I never had to "switch" per say. I thought both platforms had enough unique games that made it worth owning both. On Saturn I had games like Daytona USA, Virtua Figther 1&2, Panzer Dragoon 1, 2, and Saga, Virtua Cop, House of the Dead, Astral, Guardian Heroes, Sega Rally, World Series Baseball, Radian Silvergun, Nights Into Dreams, Fighting Vipers, etc.

With PlayStation I enjoyed Castlevania SOTN, Final Fantasy 7-9, Tekken, Gran Turismo 1 & 2, Resident Evil 1-3, Ridge Racer, Tenchu, Metal Gear Solid, Madden Football, Legend of Dragoon, Crash Bandicoot, Spyro, Crash Team Racing, Soul Blade, Twisted Metal, Wipeout, Soul Reaver, etc.
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Old 06-21-2019, 04:11 PM   #38
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Joe Montana Football, World Series Baseball, NHL 94, Sonic 2, Aladdin and the Mortal Kombat games were what got me hooked on gaming. I'd played some Super Mario Bros and Duck Hunt on the NES but was pretty young at the time.

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The Dreamcast's controller was lacking 5 buttons and an analog stick compared to the Xbox's controller (or PS1's dual analog controller which came out 2 years before the Dreamcast). It was good for racing games, fighting games, and 2D games but most other genres were much better with a dual analog controller.
I came from the N64 with its wonky (but innovative!) controller and played mostly games that were designed with the Dreamcast's controller in mind so I guess I was in the minority in not having an issue with it. DualShock was indeed better but I bought a Playstation late and pretty much only for MGS and GT2 so I didn't have too much experience with it. The Xbox controller was better for FPS of course but I also remember it being massive and having uncomfortable face buttons.
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Old 07-05-2019, 11:35 AM   #39
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Sega did pretty much good business and sold many consoles till the '90s but they didn't upgrade the hardware of their consoles and due to lack of gaming titles initially, it failed and separated their software branch now Sega is just game publisher.
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