Any rumors about Buffy the Vampire Slayer show coming out on Blu-ray?

[fsc_smg]

Please please please, could you guys share the link? I'm from Europe and I can't watch pivot in here BTVS is my all time favourite show and even thought some aspect of the HD version sucks is always nice to see Sarah's face in HD hehe :P

[bloomyself]

Originally Posted by slainery

People have complained about the DNR look of the first seasons - same with the colors, OAR, colors, etc.

Why post comparison pics about two different shows and talk about their overall remasterisation if you're only supposed to pinpoint specific things, and ignore others? At least make the OP more specific.

Have you seen the over-saturated colours of TXF season 2 on DVD? Or some the overly dark scenes? Or the usual green tones? I bet they weren't meant to be look this in the first place, so I don't see why people treat BTVS's DVD transfer as gospel.

Yes, indeed, they messed up some scenes in terms of photography, but to pretend like everything on the DVD is so much better (which is what you do by posting all those comparisons pics) is borderline delusional and petty. You might as well pop your DVDs and buy half a dozen of copies of the complete series and keep them, lest they completely disappear in the next decade~.

I feel like you're missing the point of the post. Nobody is arguing with you about whether widescreen is better than the DVD releases anymore, because frankly we've lost interest. This post was only to compare how each team treated their remaster. One team stayed true to the original colors and it looks natural and an improvement over the original. One does not. It's that simple.

Not sure why you still linger around these parts if you're so happy with Fox's remastering of this mid-season show. As soon as I saw The X-Files remaster was in great hands, I didn't see the need to regularly check that thread anymore. But I look forward to the finished product.

[Nico Darko]

Originally Posted by bloomyself

Does anyone have any thoughts on the prospect of a Kickstarter/crowdfunding method to getting this remaster done right? Other big name projects that relied on crowdfunding (Veronica Mars, The Middleman) generally at least had the backing of the studio or the creatives involved, which this doesn't appear to have yet. And that is something that is usually necessary for "rewards."

I don't know the first thing about organizing crowdfunding campaign, but I was hoping someone who understands the process better could weigh in. It would be nice to send a message to FOX to show them how important an HD remastering of Buffy to the fans. If we contacted a proper remastering team ourselves, or did research on them (such as the team that worked on Star Trek TNG or The X-Files) we could get pricing estimates for what it would take to remaster the series and go from there.

If anything it would at least show Fox that if they are planning on skimping on the costs of this remaster then the fans will be more than happy to pick up the slack.

Without the involvement of Fox or someone from the Buffy creative team leading the way, this would essentially be nothing more than a publicity stunt and it will get media attention, and likely make Fox look bad. But it would be nice if we could also let them know that this is something fans would be interested in doing and get them to agree to it. They could agree to some sort of matching deal, like Warner Bros had done.

YES. I would completely support a Kickstarter if it was made clear that Buffy deserves the same treatment The X-Files or The Wire is getting.

I also know nothing about crowdfunding, but I'm hoping someone here does. And I think it's a great idea to get in touch with Illuminate Studios or CBS to learn more about what it takes to properly remaster a show like Buffy.

[slainery]

Originally Posted by bloomyself

I feel like you're missing the point of the post. Nobody is arguing with you about whether widescreen is better than the DVD releases anymore, because frankly we've lost interest. This post was only to compare how each team treated their remaster. One team stayed true to the original colors and it looks natural and an improvement over the original. One does not. It's that simple.

Not sure why you still linger around these parts if you're so happy with Fox's remastering of this mid-season show. As soon as I saw The X-Files remaster was in great hands, I didn't see the need to regularly check that thread anymore. But I look forward to the finished product.

I hadn't even mentioned OAR in my initial post (because I've lost interest too), but I addressed several other valid comparison points as your OP did not bear any reference to the original colors (which I talked about, by the way.)

Also, unless you got the original tapes in front of you, your conception of "original colors" stands on shaky grounds as your only point of comparison are DVD which transfers have always been criticized. It's that simple.

Aaand you can keep your bitterness regarding my lack of absolute, blind reverence to BTVS to yourself, thank you. I don't know why any of you (two, three of you) get so bitter when someone mentions that more care has been put in the creation or the remasterisation of other emblematic shows... this is very petty, in my opinion.

[bloomyself]

[slainery]

Originally Posted by bloomyself

Like I said,

[Show spoiler]pettiness.

[Buffdale]

Originally Posted by slainery

Like I said,

[Show spoiler]pettiness.

Give your opinion about the crowdfunding idea, instead of provoking other members... It's useless. We don't share the same opinion about everything. I think everyone get it. But I imagine that your goal, like our, is to have the best HD remastering, so your opinion is welcome .

[slainery]

Originally Posted by Buffdale

Give your opinion about the crowdfunding idea, instead of provoking other members... It's useless. We don't share the same opinion about everything. I think everyone get it. But I imagine that your goal, like our, is to have the best HD remastering, so your opinion is welcome .

I'll be honest, and pass for a troll too but... I think crowdfunding is a pointless idea. At the end of the day, it still comes from a vocal minority for vocal minority... which Fox couldn't two hoots about. Fox look at the numbers (both domestic and international); and the numbers don't lie people don't care that much about the presentation. That whole remastering business is about syndication and is done because channels request HD widescreen because that's what the GP likes and that's what fills everybody's pockets. The remasterisation of TXF and BTVS have been done by two different teams with different sets of standards, and Fox doesn't care as long as the job is done and shipped to those international markets.

Fox is a massive studio (not some underground distributor) that has been profiting off BTVS video releases for almost two decades, so I don't see why people should pay them furthermore when they've been shelling money since 2000.

Personally, I'm not that fussed about the remastering because I used to record my shows on VHS and the DVD quality, while not great, satisfies me. The show's presentation doesn't break or make the show for me.

Of course, I'll be all over those TXF blu-rays if they ever come out, but in the meantime it's fine - the show itself remains as great as ever (*minus S8*).

[Panemlights]

I'll have to say slainery is right about the colors and crowdfunding.
There isn't really enough people to fund this kind of project especially when there's not enough people who don't really know anything about the technical side of remastering and why it's important. The only way a lot of people would fund a Buffy project is if they were making a movie.

[chip75]

The only way crowdfunding would work is if FOX said they've got x amount of the funds they're prepared to put toward the remaster of Buffy the Vampire Slayer and introduce incentives to the fans to fund the rest of it.

Why we'd need any knowledge of the restoration process is beyond me, it's not like we'd roll up to FOX studios with the cash, they'd hand over the negatives and we'd say "Don't worry FOX we'll take care of it!" The ball will always be in FOX's court. The problem with FOX is they have the funds, they just don't want to use them because they don't see a return in their investment regarding physical media.

[BillieCassin]

Originally Posted by bloomyself

Does anyone have any thoughts on the prospect of a Kickstarter/crowdfunding method to getting this remaster done right? Other big name projects that relied on crowdfunding (Veronica Mars, The Middleman) generally at least had the backing of the studio or the creatives involved, which this doesn't appear to have yet. And that is something that is usually necessary for "rewards."

I think your enthusiasm is great, but the truth is - it simply wouldn't work on any level. I see this every day, where folks want to use Kickstarter for such things - "Hey Hasbro isn't making the action figure I want, let's do a kickstarter!", "Let's have a kick-starter for a new ride at Disney World", etc. While what happened with Veronica Mars was awesome, it was a very specific set of circumstances that are not going to apply to pretty much any other project like this.

First, it's not "generally" have backing - you absolutely cannot start a Kickstarter based upon the Buffy TV show without FOX's permission. You can try to put one up, but it will be taken down (and you will have to violate the T&C of the Kickstarter website to even attempt it).

Second, let's say FOX was like "Sure!" (even though we basically be confirming that they are doing a crappy job by doing so - and the problem isn't so much funds, but artistic choices being made), but let's say they do. To go back to Veronica - look at what happened at the end - a bunch of folks threw a hissy fit and got refunds because they didn't like the digital copy they were offered. They didn't support the project, they treated it like a lot of folks do - as a fancy "preorder". Looking at this thread and elsewhere, there are so many ideas of what this should be - that the entire thing would fall apart on that alone.

If I were thinking about this, I wouldn't waste my time with Kickstarter - this isn't really what it's meant for in the first place, and besides the two factors above I could list another half-dozen reasons that it just isn't worth consideration because it can't work. If folks feel so strongly, I'd funnel this into a project that might actually get some attention and have a chance of success.

Just my advice - I understand it seems like an obvious choice, but it's just going to waste your time in the end.

[d514]

Originally Posted by bloomyself

Astonishing how the X-Files team manages to keep the framing and coloring true to the original, what's their secret?

The X-Files remastering seems to be done by people who know what they are doing. Maybe the Buffy remastering team knows too but they don't have enough time?

Framing: X-Files was protected for 16:9, Buffy was not.


I thought about it and maybe the Buffy team is doing a 4:3 version at the same time. The smartest way of doing it would be to scan the full frame of the negative, edit the episodes, do the color correction etc. (ok, they seem to skip that step ) and redo optical effects if necessary.

From that master you can easily create the original 4:3 version because the area used for that is fixed in most cases. From the same master you can also create the 16:9 version. Come to think of it - creating the 4:3 version must be cheaper.

[DragonQ]

Originally Posted by d514

The X-Files remastering seems to be done by people who know what they are doing. Maybe the Buffy remastering team knows too but they don't have enough time?

Framing: X-Files was protected for 16:9, Buffy was not.


I thought about it and maybe the Buffy team is doing a 4:3 version at the same time. The smartest way of doing it would be to scan the full frame of the negative, edit the episodes, do the color correction etc. (ok, they seem to skip that step ) and redo optical effects if necessary.

From that master you can easily create the original 4:3 version because the area used for that is fixed in most cases. From the same master you can also create the 16:9 version. Come to think of it - creating the 4:3 version must be cheaper.

For the SD masters, the 4:3 frame is always a centre-cut of the 16:9 frame for series 4-7. So it's actually quite simple: remaster the show using the original 16:9 framing, then perform any reframing/digital trickery required to fix errors that appear in both the 4:3 and 16:9 frame. After that you just need to do the centre-cut to produce the final "4:3 HD master" and then do a final framing-fix sweep of any errors that appear in just the 16:9 frame resulting in the "16:9 HD master". Basically like this:



Doesn't require much more effort than just doing either the 4:3 or 16:9 version. It would require more effort for series 1-2 though (and maybe series 3) since there'd be a lot more reframing needed.

[Nico Darko]

Originally Posted by BillieCassin

I think your enthusiasm is great, but the truth is - it simply wouldn't work on any level. I see this every day, where folks want to use Kickstarter for such things - "Hey Hasbro isn't making the action figure I want, let's do a kickstarter!", "Let's have a kick-starter for a new ride at Disney World", etc. While what happened with Veronica Mars was awesome, it was a very specific set of circumstances that are not going to apply to pretty much any other project like this.

First, it's not "generally" have backing - you absolutely cannot start a Kickstarter based upon the Buffy TV show without FOX's permission. You can try to put one up, but it will be taken down (and you will have to violate the T&C of the Kickstarter website to even attempt it).

Second, let's say FOX was like "Sure!" (even though we basically be confirming that they are doing a crappy job by doing so - and the problem isn't so much funds, but artistic choices being made), but let's say they do. To go back to Veronica - look at what happened at the end - a bunch of folks threw a hissy fit and got refunds because they didn't like the digital copy they were offered. They didn't support the project, they treated it like a lot of folks do - as a fancy "preorder". Looking at this thread and elsewhere, there are so many ideas of what this should be - that the entire thing would fall apart on that alone.

If I were thinking about this, I wouldn't waste my time with Kickstarter - this isn't really what it's meant for in the first place, and besides the two factors above I could list another half-dozen reasons that it just isn't worth consideration because it can't work. If folks feel so strongly, I'd funnel this into a project that might actually get some attention and have a chance of success.

Just my advice - I understand it seems like an obvious choice, but it's just going to waste your time in the end.

Like I said, I know nothing about crowdfunding, but you make some very good points. I guess the chances of a kickstarter working are extremely slim.

Oh well, we'll think of something else.

[Nico Darko]

Originally Posted by DragonQ

Doesn't require much more effort than just doing either the 4:3 or 16:9 version. It would require more effort for series 1-2 though (and maybe series 3) since there'd be a lot more reframing needed.

I'm pretty sure season 3 is like season 4, it seems they were both shot using the same technique, and on 35mm, so they can be fully opened-up on the sides pretty easily.

But do you think it's that complicated to make season 2 widescreen? from what we've seen, the cropping in height can be really bad, but it looks like the 4:3 frame is usually a centre-cut of the 16:9 frame as well. Except for some cases like this one: http://img4.hostingpics.net/pics/9706142034.png (although the frame might have been moved to the left for various reasons).

It's a shame the transfer to widescreen is so inconsistent, because if there is one season that would look great in 16:9 it's season 2! The framing in 4:3 looks unusually cramped (even though it is the intended AR), much more than S3-7 that already have a lot of room in 4:3 (I guess that's due to the change of filming equipment between S2 and S3). I don't know why but the dead space wouldn't be nearly as bad in the first two seasons, even if they opened-up the sides completely. But S2 probably has more widescreen goofs than later seasons.

But still, if we ever get both aspect ratios in HD, and if the conversion is done very carefully, season 2 would be the season I might prefer watching in 16:9.

Unless, the SD transfer wasn't even right to begin with? they might open up the 4:3 a little bit on all sides (they did it for S1 in 16:9), creating more room in the OAR. It's the only season where I feel the frame is sometimes too cramped (and Angel S1 for some reason), the 4:3 framing is perfect in the following seasons.

But unlike S3-7 I'm still not sure if a proper widescreen presentation is possible for season 2?

[HDMe]

I keep saying this, because I don't think everyone always gets it..

35mm film is not 16x9. 16x9 is achieved from a 35mm print by cropping/masking something. So you aren't "opening" up to display 16x9... you're just changing how/where you crop/mask the film.

This is why it is so important that the original director was framing for 4:3 TV vs a 16:9 presentation... even if they "protected" somewhat for 16:9, the majority of the direction was for a 4:3 area of the film.

[Nico Darko]

Originally Posted by HDMe

I keep saying this, because I don't think everyone always gets it..

35mm film is not 16x9. 16x9 is achieved from a 35mm print by cropping/masking something. So you aren't "opening" up to display 16x9... you're just changing how/where you crop/mask the film.

This is why it is so important that the original director was framing for 4:3 TV vs a 16:9 presentation... even if they "protected" somewhat for 16:9, the majority of the direction was for a 4:3 area of the film.

Don't worry, I know. Saying "opening up" is just easier to make it clear that the 4:3 frame is gaining picture on the sides (even if it's wrong) as opposed to being cropped to create 16:9.
Of course 35mm doesn't mean 16:9, I was just thinking that in Buffy's case, the conversion to 16:9 will probably be much easier starting S3 when they switched to 35mm. S4 is very problematic in widescreen, but it doesn't look THAT bad when you think they were barely 'protecting' for it. So I think it can look very decent if the remastering team does a good job.

I just wished i knew what the deal is with S1-2 and the way they shot those episodes.

EDIT:

What I mean is, we all know they only framed for 4:3, but seeing the 16:9 area on the camera monitor means they must have protected for it at least a minimum. I just wonder if they had that 16:9 space on the monitors during S1-2 as well.

From season 3 (ep 15):



From season 4 (ep 8):

[#Darren]

Originally Posted by Nico Darko

I just wonder if they also had that 16:9 space on the monitors during S1-2 as well.

If they had it, I'm pretty sure they would have used it on the UK DVD's...

[Nico Darko]

Originally Posted by #Darren

If they had it, I'm pretty sure they would have used it on the UK DVD's...

Well, the dvds were widescreen because Fox decided to produce 16:9 SD masters starting season 4, and that's how the BBC aired the show starting that season. But I'm pretty sure season 3 was shot the same way (just look at the behind the scenes screenshot, it's from ep 3x15).

I just assume Fox didn't think of making widescreen masters during s3, but that doesn't change the way it was shot. And we don't really know what the film negatives for S2 look like either.

[DragonQ]

Originally Posted by Nico Darko

I'm pretty sure season 3 is like season 4, it seems they were both shot using the same technique, and on 35mm, so they can be fully opened-up on the sides pretty easily.

They are both perf-3 35 mm (16:9), we just have no way of knowing how well protected it is compared to the later series until we see the rest of the episodes on Pivot. Considering series 4 is easily the worst for 16:9 goofs, I'd imagine series 3 has a fair few as well (unless the remastering team actually bothers fixing them this time).

It's also unlikely that the 4:3 frame is an exact centre-cut of the 16:9 film area, it's more likely to be a bit smaller than this (as in my diagram). There's probably a behind-the-scenes feature that shows the frame lines on the camera preview screens somewhere. I know there's one for Once More, With Feeling, but of course that has a 16:9 frame.

EDIT: I see such a thing was posted afterwards.

Originally Posted by Nico Darko

But do you think it's that complicated to make season 2 widescreen? from what we've seen, the cropping in height can be really bad, but it looks like the 4:3 frame is usually a centre-cut of the 16:9 frame as well. Expect for some cases like this one: http://img4.hostingpics.net/pics/9706142034.png (although the frame might have been moved to the left for various reasons).

It's hard to tell. When the original mastering was done, it's possible they shifted the 4:3 frame a bit from its default position for whatever reason. It could also be that the remastering team didn't simply "open up" the sides because there was something visible that shouldn't have been and thus reframed it themselves.

Originally Posted by HDMe

I keep saying this, because I don't think everyone always gets it..

35mm film is not 16x9. 16x9 is achieved from a 35mm print by cropping/masking something. So you aren't "opening" up to display 16x9... you're just changing how/where you crop/mask the film.

This is why it is so important that the original director was framing for 4:3 TV vs a 16:9 presentation... even if they "protected" somewhat for 16:9, the majority of the direction was for a 4:3 area of the film.

Yeah you've said it before but it's irrelevant. You know as well as everyone else that terms like "opening up the sides" make sense in context.

Also, 35 mm film isn't 16:9 but the process used, 3-perf Super35, is 16:9 and I'm pretty sure that's how Buffy was shot for series 3-7 based on the above screenshot. Otherwise the 4:3 frame would be larger within the entire negative. IIRC this is also how Friends was shot. Compare this to shows like Star Trek The Next Generation, which used 4-perf 35 mm (1.37:1) and thus have barely any room for opening out the sides from the original 4:3 framing.

Originally Posted by #Darren

If they had it, I'm pretty sure they would have used it on the UK DVD's...

Originally Posted by Nico Darko

Well, the dvds were widescreen because Fox decided to produce 16:9 SD masters starting season 4, and that's how the BBC aired the show starting that season. But I'm pretty sure season 3 was shot the same way (just look at the behind the scenes screenshot, it's from ep 3x15).

I just assume Fox didn't think of making widescreen masters during s3, but that doesn't change the way it was shot. And we don't really know what the film negatives for S2 look like either.

It's also possible that the BBC simply only started requesting 16:9 masters for series 4 onwards and Fox obliged.