Do Not Discuss the removal of Protected BD files here

[bigshot]

Copyright is not a moral issue. It's a legal and business issue. People disagree with other legal and business issues all the time without painting each other with moralistic judgements. It should be the same here.

Anyone with a knowledge of the history of copyright law in the US knows that where the law stands now isn't anywhere close to the same implementations and intents it started out with. The law has progressively moved away from protecting individual creators during their and their immediate heirs' lifetimes and mandating injection of works into the public domain at the end of that term... and towards the protection of corporate rights holders who are immortal and want to maintain control and ownership forever. Your own particular feelings about this will probably be based on whether you favor business interests or individual interests.

As an archivist, my concern is that it is extremely difficult for me to exercise my legal rights to fair use, and in a practical sense no provisions have been made for using DRM protected works in an educational context. I think everyone would have to agree that deterring education for purely business interests IS a moral issue.

[Matthew1987]

Originally Posted by Rob71

I don't know you, so don't take this as an accusation. But almost to the person, everyone I know personally who has argued your points, when I visit their home have tons of burned DVD's and/or HDD's full of films. And as yet they can't show me the DVD's of them. I know this is anecdotal, but when large numbers of people share the same anecdote, it ceases being anecdotal.

You should see my apartment. You would be very surprised.

Believe it or not, to date, I have not EVER burned ANYTHING to a DVD, HD-DVD, or Blu-ray disc.

Originally Posted by prerich

What do you mean????!!!! My PC has been HDCP compliant for about 3 years now!!!

It is not enough just for your PC to be HDCP-compliant. Your video card, video connection, and monitor ALL have to be HDCP-compliant.

Although most modern HDTVs are HDCP-compliant, only a few computer monitors are. Even Samsung's much-talked-about 120-Hz 3D monitor -- which was released less than 2 years ago -- isn't.

Not everyone uses an HDTV to view movies at home. Although their prices have come down, HDTVs are still very expensive, especially 3D ones.

I am a self-taught expert with 3D. Although I don't have a large amount of money yet, I have experimented with 3D since I was a small child, and have gained a large amount of experience over time. I'll tell you more about that soon.

Although my current computer system is over 7 years old, I am planning to get a buy one sometime. Late last year, I bought a new monitor and 5.1 surround sound speaker system, both of which I am using with my old computer but am planning to use with my new computer when I buy it.

The monitor that I got is a 22" Zalman Trimon monitor. That is a special monitor that allows for 3D viewing with circularly polarized glasses. It also works with RealD glasses, since they use circular polarization. That monitor costs around $300.

When I got that monitor, I was planning to, when I got a new computer, use it to watch Blu-ray movies. I had no idea that it would not be possible to do that unless I got the movies pirated. And why should I have? As I said earlier, all video connections in use today are capable of full 1080p resolution, and the digital ones have the same visual quality as HDMI. There is no legitimate reason whatsoever for Blu-ray video to require a special video connection, let alone a special video card, let alone a special monitor.

Originally Posted by Joe Cain

DRM is not meant to stop piracy, it is meant to deter piracy---which it does. DRM-stripping requires time, effort, and materials. If the average consumer could make unlimited duplications of a hard copy with practically zero effort or expense, how many would pay for content?

This is a common argument made by people who support DRM, but it is seriously flawed.

First of all, even though DRM-stripping can be very difficult, all it takes is one person or organization to strip and pirate it, and then people all over the Internet can spread it and it will be readily available for download for free on the Internet, stripped.

Second, DRM does NOT deter piracy. Hackers enjoy the challenge of cracking DRM. I think that one thing that many people don't realize is that DRM actually encourages piracy. Think of it from the consumer's point of view. If you buy the product, you have to deal with the artificially-imposed restrictions, and, in some cases, may not be able to use the product at all, but if you download it pirated, you don't have to deal with the restrictions. Which do you think that people will be tempted to choose?

Third, one of the strongest defenses against piracy is the simple fact that most people are honest, and that people who participate in piracy are opening themselves up to legal action. Consider this fact: Even though DVD-quality free pirated copies of movies are readily available for download over the Internet, DVDs continue to sell well.

Originally Posted by Joe Cain

I'm tired of hearing about studios are greedy and selfish: that argument could be made of any corporation. Yes, they're selfish. They own property & they have rights regarding that property, including the rights to duplicate, distribute, and display that property, or authorize others to do so. And if they can't make the profit they want on selling that property they have no motive to make it available. I'm an informal labor historian and I have deep misgivings about unrestrained capitalism, but as a creator of intellectual property I also have deep convictions about my rights regarding that property.

Not all large companies are greedy and selfish. One good example of one that isn't is iD Software. Not only is iD Software very open to allowing fan projects, they have released the source code for Wolfenstein 3D, Doom, and Quake to the public for free.

Although companies don't have to be that nice, they should at least allow their customers the rights granted to them under fair use law.

[prerich]

Originally Posted by Matthew1987

You should see my apartment. You would be very surprised.

Believe it or not, to date, I have not EVER burned ANYTHING to a DVD, HD-DVD, or Blu-ray disc.



It is not enough just for your PC to be HDCP-compliant. Your video card, video connection, and monitor ALL have to be HDCP-compliant.

.

I designed my PC around the the playback of HD-DVD and Bluray (yes I was a purple guy, I just wanted HD content, I even own WMV-HD's). I made sure everything was compliant - from my monitor (42 inch TV really) my video card - connections (HDMI and DVI). That wasn't difficult to do.

P.S. what are the specs of your computer? You keep saying special video card, and special monitor and special connection (are you talking about HDMI and or DVI)? Buy the way - I don't buy PC's ...I build them myself - the only way to do it! If you are a builder - you should know that you can get into a HDCP video card rather cheaply. Are you a gamer also (sounds like it) well that's going to cost you but still not much. If you will spend $300.00 on a monitor - I think you will pony up for a proper video card. It's just like the minimum system requierments on a game or any other piece of software - you can't play it or use it unless you meet the requierments. I have Ulead Video on a Netbook and I can't use it unless I connect an external monitor - my resolution on the netbook is 1280x600 and Ulead requires a minimum of 1074x768. Should I fault Ulead for that (or now Corel)? No I shouldn't and I won't - I'll just meet the standard.

[Rob71]

I think that one thing that many people don't realize is that DRM actually encourages piracy.

And deadbolt locks actually encourage home invasions.

[dobyblue]

Originally Posted by Matthew1987

Not everyone uses an HDTV to view movies at home. Although their prices have come down, HDTVs are still very expensive

My 42" 1080p plasma cost me only $100 more this year than my 27" CRT did in 1998.

I don't need a video card for my PC, my MOBO supports HDCP output and dts-ma/TrueHD 7.1 bitstream and/or PCM. PQ-5EM.

I would think most people building their own HTPC would get it right.

[Joe Cain]

Hackers enjoy the challenge of cracking DRM....

So? It does not necessarily follow that meting the challenge result in unauthorized distribution unless the objective is dual: to defeat the DRM *and* to screw The Man. If you're saying pirates will pirate---well, yes, I agree. All the more reason to make it at least a little bit of an effort requiring conscious choices. Honesty is entirely relative to sense of entitlement: I'm sure that most of the folks who've downloaded hundreds of hours' worth of free music or added dozens of DVD titles to their collections through rental ripping would characterize themselves as generally honest---it's certainly true of the individuals I know personally---but it ain't necessarily so.

[PrivatePixel]

Originally Posted by Joe Cain

Hackers enjoy the challenge of cracking DRM....

It is the proverbial cat-and-mouse game between the hackers and the software engineers. Now that the HDCP Master Key is out there in cyberspace (a fact confirmed by Intel last week), what does that mean for consumers (and the hacking community)?

For us consumers, nothing will change. HDCP will be an inconvenience that customers will have to deal with. According to Intel, the master key is useless to those who possess it unless the individual has access to the custom-designed chip required for decoding, but who is to say that it can't be accomplished through software? With enough time and resources, anything can be reverse-engineered; with the HDCP master key floating out there, things just became a bit easier.

[Matthew1987]

Originally Posted by prerich

I designed my PC around the the playback of HD-DVD and Bluray (yes I was a purple guy, I just wanted HD content, I even own WMV-HD's). I made sure everything was compliant - from my monitor (42 inch TV really) my video card - connections (HDMI and DVI). That wasn't difficult to do.

P.S. what are the specs of your computer? You keep saying special video card, and special monitor and special connection (are you talking about HDMI and or DVI)? Buy the way - I don't buy PC's ...I build them myself - the only way to do it! If you are a builder - you should know that you can get into a HDCP video card rather cheaply. Are you a gamer also (sounds like it) well that's going to cost you but still not much. If you will spend $300.00 on a monitor - I think you will pony up for a proper video card.

The specs of my new computer aren't determined yet, because I haven't ordered it yet. But I'm hoping to order it in the very near future.

However, I HAVE already bought and am using the new monitor and the new 5.1 surround sound speaker system, both of which I am planning to use with my new computer when I get it.

With my new computer, the video card and video connection may very well be HDCP-compliant. However, as I said, the monitor, which I've already gotten, is a 22" Zalman Trimon monitor. That monitor, which is very well known among 3D fans, is a 3D monitor which uses circular polarization. It is just like an "ordinary" monitor except that it's even and odd horizontal pixel lines emit light of different and opposite circular polarization -- allowing them to be filtered out separately with circular polarization filters.

Although that monitor has VGA and DVI-DL inputs and comes with an HDMI-to-DVI-DL adapter, from what I've read, it is NOT HDCP-compliant.

HDCP is NOT standard. It is a proprietary specification, and implementing it requires a license from one particular company.

Note: Zalman has now discontinued the 19" and 22" models and released two new models that are HDCP-compliant. However, as I said, I have the 22" model, which is NOT HDCP-compliant.

If you think that HDCP-compliance will soon become universal, you are kidding yourself. Consider the following fact: The vast majority of digital monitors still use VGA connections -- even though VGA connections are analog and that technology is more than 10 years out of date.

Originally Posted by prerich

It's just like the minimum system requierments on a game or any other piece of software - you can't play it or use it unless you meet the requierments. I have Ulead Video on a Netbook and I can't use it unless I connect an external monitor - my resolution on the netbook is 1280x600 and Ulead requires a minimum of 1074x768. Should I fault Ulead for that (or now Corel)? No I shouldn't and I won't - I'll just meet the standard.

This is a ridiculous argument to make.

There is a HUGE difference between working within the limitations of technology and intentionally artificially imposing limitations. I ABSOLUTELY would fault companies for making their products defective by design.

One of the great things about DVDs is how flexible they are. DVDs can be viewed on any computer or monitor. HDCP intentionally eliminates that flexibility.

Originally Posted by Rob71

And deadbolt locks actually encourage home invasions.

Deadbolt locks are completely different.

First of all, no one buys the right to enter your home.

Second, deadbolt locks are clearly for the purpose of preventing intrusion. DRM is not about piracy.

By the way, the user that posted that thread is a very strong opponent of piracy. (A lot stronger than I am.)

The reason that DRM encourages piracy is, the people who use the product pirated aren't subject to the unjust restrictions that the people who buy the product are.

Originally Posted by dobyblue

My 42" 1080p plasma cost me only $100 more this year than my 27" CRT did in 1998.

I'll bet that plasma TV isn't 3D ready, though.

Originally Posted by Joe Cain

If you're saying pirates will pirate---well, yes, I agree. All the more reason to make it at least a little bit of an effort requiring conscious choices.

It's one thing if DRM just makes piracy more difficult. It's another thing entirely if it also prevents many paying customers from being able to use the product. The latter is what HDCP does.

[Sith]

Originally Posted by prerich

What do you mean????!!!! My PC has been HDCP compliant for about 3 years now!!!

Not that I do, but am I not legally allowed one backup copy of any material I buy?

[prerich]

Originally Posted by Sith

Not that I do, but am I not legally allowed one backup copy of any material I buy?

Everyone should read this link. Digital commuications changed everything and the law is the law.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital..._Copyright_Act

THere are links to the actual DMCA - so by law it is illegal to backup your DVD's, BD's that are protected by DRM. So until such a time happens that the law is reviewed and changed - Bluray.com will stand behind what is legally written. End of story.

[Sith]

Originally Posted by prerich

Everyone should read this link. Digital commuications changed everything and the law is the law.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital..._Copyright_Act

THere are links to the actual DMCA - so by law it is illegal to backup your DVD's, BD's that are protected by DRM. So until such a time happens that the law is reviewed and changed - Bluray.com will stand behind what is legally written. End of story.

Thanks for the info. No big deal, I wouldn't even want to copy blu rays, the product the studios put out is the reason I spent all the $$$ on hardware.

[bigshot]

I wouldn't need to copy blurays either, but I'd like to be able to edit them as clips to accompany my lectures.

[Matthew1987]

Originally Posted by Sith

Not that I do, but am I not legally allowed one backup copy of any material I buy?

Absolutely not. Thanks to the DMCA, a corporate lobby influenced unjust law that was passed in 1998, once a product you buy uses DRM, your rights fly right out the window.

Originally Posted by bigshot

I wouldn't need to copy blurays either, but I'd like to be able to edit them as clips to accompany my lectures.

Good point. And I'd like to be able to view Blu-rays at all.

[Rob71]

Originally Posted by Matthew1987

Absolutely not. Thanks to the DMCA, a corporate lobby influenced unjust law that was passed in 1998, once a product you buy uses DRM, your rights fly right out the window.

You have the right to view the disc anytime, anywhere provided you have the equipment to play it.

[Matthew1987]

Originally Posted by Rob71

You have the right to view the disc anytime, anywhere provided you have the equipment to play it.

No, you don't.

With DRM, companies can impose any restrictions they ever want to or deny you use of the product any time they ever want to, and the DMCA will make it illegal to circumvent that, even when it denies you rights that are granted under fair use law.

I have a fantastic 3D monitor that is fully capable of playing back digital video in near 1080p resolution, but if I were to try to play a Blu-ray movie I had bought, the player would intentionally prevent me from being able to view it. And if I were to circumvent the DRM in order to be able to view the movie I had legally bought, it would be a violation of the DMCA.

[Rob71]

Originally Posted by Matthew1987

No, you don't.

With DRM, companies can impose any restrictions they ever want to or deny you use of the product any time they ever want to, and the DMCA will make it illegal to circumvent that, even when it denies you rights that are granted under fair use law.

I have a fantastic 3D monitor that is fully capable of playing back digital video in near 1080p resolution, but if I were to try to play a Blu-ray movie I had bought, the player would intentionally prevent me from being able to view it. And if I were to circumvent the DRM in order to be able to view the movie I had legally bought, it would be a violation of the DMCA.

...provided you have the equipment to play it.

So your hardware is non-compliant?

[Matthew1987]

Originally Posted by Rob71

So your hardware is non-compliant?

If you had read my earlier messages, you would know the answer to that question.

Very few computer monitors are HDCP-compliant. Even Samsung's much-talked-about 120-Hz 3D monitor isn't.

Just last month, one of my favorite movies, Deep Blue Sea, was released on Blu-ray. Out of curiosity, I just did a search on a torrent website and found that it's already available for free, pirated, in 1080p resolution. (No, I did NOT download it. And the link that I just gave is only to a trailer.)

HDCP is not helping fight piracy. And fighting piracy is not DRM's main purpose. DRM's main purpose is to impose restrictions on comsumers to increase profits. Companies that use DRM are not satisfied with the restrictions that copyright law imposes, and they use DRM to impose their own at will. And they use security as an excuse for imposing the restrictions.

Read the following articles:

http://arstechnica.com/media/news/2007/01/8616.ars

http://www.defectivebydesign.org/intel-hdminsult

[dobyblue]

Originally Posted by Matthew1987

Very few computer monitors are HDCP-compliant. Even Samsung's much-talked-about 120-Hz 3D monitor isn't.

I've built several PC's over the last 3 years, every single one had a monitor that works fine with Blu-ray playback and I was not looking for HDCP-compliant monitors, I was only looking at response time, inputs and resolution.

A quick check of Newegg shows 235 different PC monitors you can order, 208 of which have HDCP support. That leaves a little over 11% of which aren't.

[bigshot]

People seem to forget that in the not too distant past, individuals were allowed to make copies for their own personal use. Back in the days of VHS and Beta, it was not just common to tape movies off of broadcast TV, it was legal. Back in the 70s, if you had a turntable, you also had a cassette deck. It's still allowed to make mp3 copies of songs from CDs to play on an iPod.

Why is it different to rip a DVD or BD to play on your iPad?

[Matthew1987]

Originally Posted by dobyblue

I've built several PC's over the last 3 years, every single one had a monitor that works fine with Blu-ray playback and I was not looking for HDCP-compliant monitors, I was only looking at response time, inputs and resolution.

A quick check of Newegg shows 235 different PC monitors you can order, 208 of which have HDCP support. That leaves a little over 11% of which aren't.

Still, some of them aren't. And that's only NEW monitors. The vast, vast majority of monitors currently in use are NOT HDCP-compliant. This issue will not go away anytime soon.

Originally Posted by bigshot

People seem to forget that in the not too distant past, individuals were allowed to make copies for their own personal use. Back in the days of VHS and Beta, it was not just common to tape movies off of broadcast TV, it was legal. Back in the 70s, if you had a turntable, you also had a cassette deck. It's still allowed to make mp3 copies of songs from CDs to play on an iPod.

Why is it different to rip a DVD or BD to play on your iPad?

Good point.

One of the most destructive tactics that companies have used with DRM is gradual change. 10 years ago, people would have been SHOCKED by what DRM is like today.

In February 2001, a very interesting article was published in Discover magazine. I remember very well when I read this article not long after it was published. This article was written by a person who is a computer scientist and a professional musician, and in it, he gives a thought experiment where he predicts what might happen over the next 15 years with DRM.

Here's the article:

http://discovermagazine.com/2001/feb/featnapster

It has now been almost 10 years since that article was published. It is very interesting to look back at it, because some of the things in his thought experiment have happened.

For example:

In desperation, record companies worked with electronics concerns to create what's known as an end-to-end solution so that they could enforce copy protection all the way to the end of the chain of delivery, which in the case of music meant the audio speaker. By 2004, it was illegal to build speakers that could respond to old-fashioned analog inputs. Instead, manufacturers made speakers that responded to digital inputs so they could play only music authorized to be heard at a given time and place.

Something just like this has happened with video. HDCP, of course. In fact, 2004 was the exact year that the FCC approved HDCP.

Another thing about HDCP is that it is very anti-democratic. It gives a single company complete control over DRM with video.

This article illustrates the fundamental problem with using DRM against piracy: For it to be effective, we would have to abolish democracy.