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Old 07-09-2014, 06:45 PM   #361
FilmFreakosaurus FilmFreakosaurus is offline
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Originally Posted by ZoetMB View Post
You misinterpreted what he said. The ceiling channels are only matrixed when it's NOT a Dolby Atmos mix. Personally, if I had a Dolby Atmos system in the home, I wouldn't even turn Atmos on if it wasn't at Atmos mix. I despise matrix derived systems - they always have artifacts. I almost never use those digital enhancement modes on my receiver, with the exception of the mode that changes TV-based 2-channel stereo audio to drive a hard center.

He also should not have said at the beginning that 5.1 and 7.1 is 'discrete' implying that Atmos is not discrete. The point he was really trying to make is that for the objects, the mixer mixes to locations not to channels. If a target location coincides with a single speaker, the sound will appear just in that one speaker. But the objects are most certainly not matrixed. Matrixed implies that sound for one channel is derived from other channels. For example, in-phase mono audio sent to Front Left and Front Right can be matrixed to center front. This is what Dolby EX and DTS-ES did for the surrounds. It created a rear center from the Left and Right surrounds in theaters (but in my experience, it was almost impossible to notice and systems were relatively unsuccessful).

However, there still may be reasons to wait. The initial systems, as indicated in the video, only add four ceiling channels, whether actual ceiling speakers or speakers that sit on top of your current speakers and point at the ceiling. But Dolby has published a document indicating that Atmos for the home can actually handle something like 24 speakers (not that I think this is really practical in most home situations).

There are definitely still questions. While Dolby has published that brief document, they usually publish extensive papers as to how the system is going to work and they haven't done that yet. But this video doesn't get it quite right based on information already known and you've misinterpreted it anyway.

So it's still wait and see and if I were considering Atmos for the home, I'd definitely be waiting for at least the 2015 receivers and pre-pros.
It's more like 34 total outputs. 24 mains (some may be bass managed subwoofer outputs since HDMI can only handle 32 separate channels) + 10 ceiling speakers.

But you explanation of the "goofs" in Andrew's Youtube video are spot on.
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Old 07-09-2014, 07:00 PM   #362
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZoetMB View Post
Personally, if I had a Dolby Atmos system in the home, I wouldn't even turn Atmos on if it wasn't at Atmos mix. I despise matrix derived systems - they always have artifacts. I almost never use those digital enhancement modes on my receiver, with the exception of the mode that changes TV-based 2-channel stereo audio to drive a hard center.
This is exactly where I'm at too, have felt this way from before Blu-ray came out when I had a 7.1 system and I'd always keep it to "AUTO" so it would only use the rears with dts:es and Dolby EX soundtracks.

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I plan on attending CEDIA this September and hope to hear Atmos for myself outside of the cinema.
Very cool, look forward to your write up on it if you'll do one.
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Old 07-10-2014, 06:48 AM   #363
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Originally Posted by ZoetMB View Post
Dolby has published a document indicating that Atmos for the home can actually handle something like 24 speakers
So is this what Blu-ray soundtracks will be able to out-put?

Will Atmos have support for the original 11.1 specification "Aurora 3D" height "not Ceiling" speakers, Wide speakers and possibly rear Center speaker or will it only be just the ceiling channel speakers that are supported for the home version of Atmos?

Basically how many channels will Atmos soundtracks be mixed in?

Last edited by kenoh; 07-10-2014 at 06:52 AM.
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Old 07-10-2014, 12:52 PM   #364
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SDDS 8-channel wasn't very popular. There weren't that many films and frankly, when I did see SDDS 8 films at an SDDS 8 theatre, I really could not discern the extra channels. I was always paranoid that they released an 8-channel version for marketing purposes, but no one ever bothered to actually mix to those extra channels.
We had vastly different experiences with SDDS, when I saw The Fifth Element at the old Uptown Cinema in Toronto (70mm capable) in full SDDS it remained the best audio experience I'd had at the cinema until I saw Tron2 in a private employee/friends only IMAX screening.
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Old 07-10-2014, 01:36 PM   #365
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This is exactly where I'm at too, have felt this way from before Blu-ray came out when I had a 7.1 system and I'd always keep it to "AUTO" so it would only use the rears with dts:es and Dolby EX soundtracks.
I do the same thing. If it's mono, I play in mono (dual mono, but still not matriced in any way). If it's 5.1, 2.0, 4.1, etc I play it that way. The film was mixed the way it was so why change it? Even if you get an older stereo movie with a 5.1 remix the remix was done specifically for 5.1 so I see no reason to try and process it further to get a 7.1 mix out of it.

If there is an Atmos mixed movie, I would be all over that.
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Old 07-10-2014, 02:00 PM   #366
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So is this what Blu-ray soundtracks will be able to out-put?

Will Atmos have support for the original 11.1 specification "Aurora 3D" height "not Ceiling" speakers, Wide speakers and possibly rear Center speaker or will it only be just the ceiling channel speakers that are supported for the home version of Atmos?

Basically how many channels will Atmos soundtracks be mixed in?
No no no.
Auro 11.1 is *not* from Dolby.

When we talk about a Dolby Atmos mix, there is no fixed soundtrack to speak of.

I think the only easy way to describe Dolby Atmos is video games. Imagine you are playing a first person shooter on 5.1 speakers. There's a character in front of you speaking. His dialogue will be projected from the front speaker. As you rotate your camera clockwise, his voice will slowly pan to the left speaker, followed by your surround left, surround right, front right and back to front center.

If you have 7.1 speakers, and you do the same thing, it starts from FC, FL, Side Left, Rear Left, Rear Right, Side Left, FR and finally back to FC.

You see, either way the sound is not fixated on 5.1 or 7.1, it processes based on the number of speakers you have.

Dolby Atmos has a similar idea. The sound engineers authors the sound in a 3-dimensional plane, X, Y, Z.

It is then up to each individual cinema and home configuration how and which speaker each sound object will be projected.

The number of speakers depend on the size of the hall. Dolby's own theater first started off with a 26.3 configuration. In Singapore, there are two Atmos cinemas. The bigger of the two uses a 61.3 configuration while the smaller looked like 43.1.

But I repeat and I emphasize, the number of speakers don't matter. Or rather, there is no fixed configuration of speakers.

Currently, the number of speakers we can setup is limited by the hardware being manufactured.

I believe, in due time, we will get the full 61.3 configuration from home. But my point is simple, if Dolby themselves, at their own theater, sets up only 26.3 setup for their first ever Atmos presentation, then why do we need more than that for home?
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Old 07-10-2014, 03:03 PM   #367
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Originally Posted by BozQ View Post
No no no.
Auro 11.1 is *not* from Dolby.

When we talk about a Dolby Atmos mix, there is no fixed soundtrack to speak of.

I think the only easy way to describe Dolby Atmos is video games. Imagine you are playing a first person shooter on 5.1 speakers. There's a character in front of you speaking. His dialogue will be projected from the front speaker. As you rotate your camera clockwise, his voice will slowly pan to the left speaker, followed by your surround left, surround right, front right and back to front center.

If you have 7.1 speakers, and you do the same thing, it starts from FC, FL, Side Left, Rear Left, Rear Right, Side Left, FR and finally back to FC.

You see, either way the sound is not fixated on 5.1 or 7.1, it processes based on the number of speakers you have.

Dolby Atmos has a similar idea. The sound engineers authors the sound in a 3-dimensional plane, X, Y, Z.

It is then up to each individual cinema and home configuration how and which speaker each sound object will be projected.

The number of speakers depend on the size of the hall. Dolby's own theater first started off with a 26.3 configuration. In Singapore, there are two Atmos cinemas. The bigger of the two uses a 61.3 configuration while the smaller looked like 43.1.

But I repeat and I emphasize, the number of speakers don't matter. Or rather, there is no fixed configuration of speakers.

Currently, the number of speakers we can setup is limited by the hardware being manufactured.

I believe, in due time, we will get the full 61.3 configuration from home. But my point is simple, if Dolby themselves, at their own theater, sets up only 26.3 setup for their first ever Atmos presentation, then why do we need more than that for home?
That's not what I meant! I know Aurora 3D is not made by Dolby, I just meant they where one of the first to have a 11.1 surround specification?

So the point I'm trying to make is instead of using all four ceiling speakers can I just use 2 front height speaker, 2 wide and one rear center? I can set it anyway I want and still get the natural effect of placement?

Last edited by kenoh; 07-10-2014 at 03:13 PM.
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Old 07-10-2014, 03:28 PM   #368
FilmFreakosaurus FilmFreakosaurus is offline
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Originally Posted by kenoh View Post
That's not what I meant! I know Aurora 3D is not made by Dolby, I just meant they where one of the first to have a 11.1 surround specification?

So the point I'm trying to make is instead of using all four ceiling speakers can I just use 2 front height speaker, 2 wide and one rear center? I can set it anyway I want and still get the natural effect of placement?
Only one Atmos product, so far, may be able to actually calibrate the renderer to map objects to your particular speaker layout. It's the Trinnov Altitude 32 and it is BIG bucks.

If the other manufacturers start getting a lot of complaints about their limited Atmos offerings this time around, maybe they will be more inclined to include the processing power necessary to have object re-mapping.

Currently, you're limited to pre-determined speaker locations.
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Old 07-10-2014, 03:49 PM   #369
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Originally Posted by FilmFreakosaurus View Post
Only one Atmos product, so far, may be able to actually calibrate the renderer to map objects to your particular speaker layout. It's the Trinnov Altitude 32 and it is BIG bucks.

If the other manufacturers start getting a lot of complaints about their limited Atmos offerings this time around, maybe they will be more inclined to include the processing power necessary to have object re-mapping.

Currently, you're limited to pre-determined speaker locations.
I was really hoping they would emphasize the wide channel placement like Auro-3D

http://www.avsforum.com/photopost/da...rrows-101.jpeg - Auro-3D 11.1 channel sound field

http://www.avforums.com/attachments/...19-jpg.426385/ - Auro-3D 13.1 sound field - this the setup I want most!

So this won't be possible with current receivers? Will Blu-rays be able to utilize future Atmos receiver updates for those types of specifications with out needing new discs?

Last edited by kenoh; 07-10-2014 at 03:54 PM.
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Old 07-10-2014, 03:53 PM   #370
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So this won't be possible with current receivers? Will Blu-rays be able to utilize future Atmos receiver updates for those types of specifications with out needing new discs?
Correct.

Yes. According to Dolby, they can control up to 34 outputs. Only the hardware is the limiting factor right now.
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Old 07-10-2014, 03:58 PM   #371
kenoh kenoh is offline
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Correct.

Yes. According to Dolby, they can control up to 34 outputs. Only the hardware is the limiting factor right now.
By the way Trinnov Altitude 32 is a processor that has capabilities to redirect sound sources to any speakers in a 32 surround soundfield?

Since these 32 channel receivers/processors have just been announce do you think next year current A/V receiver manufactures will upgrade there hardware to meet these specifications?

A matter of fact can't they simply upgrade it through a firmware to use the available sound sources through any of the available channels the receiver supports?

I don't see why that's not possible since they announced they would add support that way? It's only adding the ability to redirect sound sources, that's not so hard?

Again BTW, I heard a while back that Emotiva will have a processor with 32 channel support available next month for $2000, it's just a rumor so I don't know if it's true...

Last edited by kenoh; 07-10-2014 at 04:04 PM.
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Old 07-10-2014, 04:15 PM   #372
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Originally Posted by kenoh View Post
By the way Trinnov Altitude 32 is a processor that has capabilities to redirect sound sources to any speakers in a 32 surround soundfield?

Since these 32 channel receivers/processors have just been announce do you think next year current A/V receiver manufactures will upgrade there hardware to meet these specifications?

A matter of fact can't they simply upgrade it through a firmware to use the available sound sources through any of the available channels the receiver supports?

I don't see why that's not possible since they announced they would add support that way? It's only adding the ability to redirect sound sources, that's not so hard?

Again BTW, I heard a while back that Emotiva will have a processor with 32 channel support available next month for $2000, it's just a rumor so I don't know if it's true...
Object rendering is quite processor intensive. It's basically mixing a soundtrack in real time for your custom theater based on metadata instructions created at the time of the original dubbing stage sessions.

The limitation stems from processor power, as in the DSP chips being used in "consumer" gear at the moment are not good enough. New firmware won't do it because the processors can't handle it.

That's why they're currently limited to fixed speaker locations. It's very, very limited object re-mapping.

The Trinnov can do it because it was a "cost is no object" piece of hardware for the ultra rich.

Last edited by FilmFreakosaurus; 07-10-2014 at 04:19 PM.
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Old 07-10-2014, 04:22 PM   #373
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Originally Posted by FilmFreakosaurus View Post
Object rendering is quite processor intensive. It's basically mixing a soundtrack in real time for your custom theater based on metadata instructions created at the time of the original dubbing stage sessions.

The limitation stems from processor power, as in the DSP chips being used in "consumer" gear at the moment are not good enough. New firmware won't do it because the processors can't handle it.

That's why they're currently limited to fixed speaker locations. It's very, very limited object re-mapping.

The Trinnov can do it because it was a "cost is no object" piece of hardware for the ultra rich.
What about the Emotiva for $2000, if true? If they release that next month for that price with 32 channel support then that's what I'm getting!

Automatic buy! I'll just buy the AMPS for what ever many speakers I'm going to use.

BTW, I just heard the Trinnov doesn't decode but only bitstreams...WTF?

Last edited by kenoh; 07-10-2014 at 04:25 PM.
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Old 07-10-2014, 04:32 PM   #374
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What about the Emotiva for $2000, if true? If they release that next month for that price with 32 channel support then that's what I'm getting!

Automatic buy! I'll just buy the AMPS for what ever many speakers I'm going to use.

BTW, I just heard the Trinnov doesn't decode but only bitstreams...WTF?
The Emotiva seems to be vaporware at the moment... and probably will not have Atmos on board when it does get released. It's only a 7.1 pre-amp from the last information gathered.

The Trinnov does decoding. It's a processor. The Blu-ray player does the bitstreaming.
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Old 07-10-2014, 05:18 PM   #375
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Trinnov is releasing four models, 8-16-24-32 channels, if the other manufactures where smart they would do the same by reducing entry cost without the need for the extra processing power for the lower channel versions.

Hell, I bet most people "including me" would be contempt with only half the speakers, maybe even 11 or 13 channels!

I just really want to extend the front stage and rear, basically....
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Old 07-10-2014, 05:51 PM   #376
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Trinnov is releasing four models, 8-16-24-32 channels, if the other manufactures where smart they would do the same by reducing entry cost without the need for the extra processing power for the lower channel versions.

Hell, I bet most people "including me" would be contempt with only half the speakers, maybe even 11 or 13 channels!

I just really want to extend the front stage and rear, basically....
I'd love to know what their 16 "channel" Atmos processor will cost.
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Old 07-10-2014, 06:09 PM   #377
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I'd love to know what their 16 "channel" Atmos processor will cost.
Well if the 32 channel version costs about $40,000 and there 8 channel costs about $20,000, then I would assume it would cost about $30,000?

I think manufactures should go this route "minus the price" then everybody gets to be happy, the ultra rich and even poor peasants like me!

The ultra rich who can afford the space can get the high-end 32 channel receiver and the pro crowd/budget enthusiasts can get the lesser channel receivers like the 11, 13, 16 channel versions?

Last edited by kenoh; 07-10-2014 at 06:18 PM.
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Old 07-10-2014, 06:53 PM   #378
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I honestly don't see any need to go more than 7.1.4. If any hardware allows, I'd love to see 7.3.4

As far as I know, most if not all of the Atmos mix uses the 7.1 bed. Even if they started off with a 9.1 bed the x.x.2 or x.x.4 will have the stereo height channels covered.

The two surround LFE channels will allow home theater owners to experience the full low frequency in the surround channels. Transformers - Age of Extinction made incredible use of the surround LFE during the magnetic ship sequence in Hong Kong. And not to mention the overheads when everything has bring drawn towards the ceiling and falling off. Even IMAX had a hard time matching the impact of Dolby Atmos in that sequence. And that's something I want to see happen in Home Atmos.
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Old 07-10-2014, 07:02 PM   #379
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I honestly don't see any need to go more than 7.1.4. If any hardware allows, I'd love to see 7.3.4

As far as I know, most if not all of the Atmos mix uses the 7.1 bed. Even if they started off with a 9.1 bed the x.x.2 or x.x.4 will have the stereo height channels covered.

The two surround LFE channels will allow home theater owners to experience the full low frequency in the surround channels. Transformers - Age of Extinction made incredible use of the surround LFE during the magnetic ship sequence in Hong Kong. And not to mention the overheads when everything has bring drawn towards the ceiling and falling off. Even IMAX had a hard time matching the impact of Dolby Atmos in that sequence. And that's something I want to see happen in Home Atmos.
I would have preferred if they had used 11.1 as there test bed, that way it would give more of a reason to upgrade besides the ceiling speakers!

I honestly believe this will breath in new life into the separate component business like pre-amps, A/V processors, unless you want to deal with 50lbs-80lbs 32 channel Receivers!
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Old 07-10-2014, 07:19 PM   #380
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Originally Posted by kenoh View Post
Well if the 32 channel version costs about $40,000 and there 8 channel costs about $20,000, then I would assume it would cost about $30,000?

I think manufactures should go this route "minus the price" then everybody gets to be happy, the ultra rich and even poor peasants like me!

The ultra rich who can afford the space can get the high-end 32 channel receiver and the pro crowd/budget enthusiasts can get the lesser channel receivers like the 11, 13, 16 channel versions?
It's a *sound* bed, not a test bed. Sheesh.

The 7.1 or 9.1 sound bed is just the foundation of the soundtrack. After this sound bed is done, the engineers have up to 128 objects to play around with the 3D plane with the Dolby Atmos system.

When it's all done, it's delivered to all Atmos equipped cinemas and homes in whichever configuration it's being equipped with.
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