Midnight Cowboy (1969)

[Harryhausen AF]

Originally Posted by jackinbox

I totally agree. The problem is that we don't know if the Criterion is truly representative of what was intended.

Didn't Schlesinger supervise the Criterion LD? Perhaps someone should take a look at that. Yes, it's an old transfer, but it should give us an idea of what sort of look he was going for.

That ld was totally garbage just like the first DVD way too green. Good thing I have the old blu with natural colors unlike the Criterion which has a blanket green tint. Criterion do have a history with revisionism recently I had to sell off the Criterions of Silence of the Lambs and Straw Dogs and just kept the MGMs for the more natural colors.

[Bates_Motel]

Originally Posted by AnamorphicWidescreen

Actually, I want the PQ, sound, and color to look it's best. This is why I'm an HD fan in the first place. If this means I prefer a print that's an obvious improvement on the original artist's "vision", then so be it.

If you don't like the way a film looks in a certain format - or by a certain manufacturer/distributor - you're free to vote with your wallet & not purchase the film in that format or by that distributor. This is why threads & screen caps like this exist - so that we can get an idea of the film prior to seeing/purchasing this. I myself will be sticking with the 2011 MGM Blu of MC, since I don't see that the Criterion version's PQ is any better - in fact, I see it as being worse.

If you want to spend money on the new Criterion MC transfer with an obvious greenish tint, more power to you. But, I for one am not drinking the Criterion MC Kool Aid. Yes, I appreciate the fact that Criterion brings older films out of obscurity & makes them available to a wider audience - and, typically I find that, for the most part, they do a good job on their film transfer(s). However, they're not infallible & I'm not always impressed by their prints - and, I'm definitely not impressed by this forthcoming MC release.

That all being said, I am a fan of the new MC Criterion disk cover art - however, it's not worth it to me to get a film just for the cover.

That right there pretty much invalidates any other points you are trying to make, because you don't have any respect for the art OR the artist and, again, just want things YOUR way. That's a very 2018 outlook to have, and sadly is the reason we have other titles DNR'd and video-game looking when they shouldn't look like that.

The low common-denominator consumer is ruining how films should look, because they think they ALL have to be bright and sooth and video-game looking, but they certainly aren't film fans at all, or they would want them presented accurately and with respect to the art.

[Stationary Explorer]

Originally Posted by Bates_Motel

That right there pretty much invalidates any other points you are trying to make, because you don't have any respect for the art OR the artist and, again, just want things YOUR way. That's a very 2018 outlook to have, and sadly is the reason we have other titles DNR'd and video-game looking when they shouldn't look like that.

But can we not agree that sometimes the artist has lost his or her marbles and can no longer be trusted?

*cough* French Connection *cough*

[Dailyan]

Originally Posted by Stationary Explorer

But can we not agree that sometimes the artist has lost his or her marbles and can no longer be trusted?

*cough* French Connection

*cough* every James Cameron film *cough*

[AnamorphicWidescreen]

Originally Posted by Bates_Motel

That right there pretty much invalidates any other points you are trying to make, because you don't have any respect for the art OR the artist and, again, just want things YOUR way. That's a very 2018 outlook to have, and sadly is the reason we have other titles DNR'd and video-game looking when they shouldn't look like that.

The low common-denominator consumer is ruining how films should look, because they think they ALL have to be bright and sooth and video-game looking, but they certainly aren't film fans at all, or they would want them presented accurately and with respect to the art.

I'm an HD fan. So, yes, I prefer a film/TV series to be crisp/clear as opposed to dull/blurry. If PQ can be improved from an original print, that's what I want to see.

That being said, I like film grain - in some cases. For example, I felt that the 2011 Taxi Driver Blu-ray was brilliant; the PQ was clear, with the appropriate amount of grain.

This whole argument began because I stated that the green/teal tint on the MC Criterion Blu-ray print looks like crap. And, yes - if unecessary green tint in a film is representing the "artist's vision", then the artist is an idiot.

Another example: I'm a huge Star Wars fan, and, like many others, hated some (though not all) of the changes that George Lucas made to the original Star Wars films. I.e., "Greedo shoots first" in the '97 SW SE was one of the stupidest modifications ever made to any film. And, because it was the "artist's vision" I'm supposed to like it?! No way. I will not blindly follow the "rest of the sheep" and like something just because it's what the artist wanted/intended.

[Dubstar]

Originally Posted by sperezmore

Criterion has a history

The green looks familiar?

Criterion - Dressed to Kill


Arrow Films - Dressed to Kill


Criterion - Dressed to Kill


Arrow Films - Dressed to Kill


Criterion - Dressed to Kill


Arrow Films - Dressed to Kill


Criterion - Scanners


Second Sight - Scanners


Criterion - Scanners


Second Sight - Scanners


Criterion - Scanners


Second Sight - Scanners


Criterion - Midnight Cowboy


MGM - Midnight Cowboy


Criterion - Midnight Cowboy


MGM - Midnight Cowboy


Criterion - Midnight Cowboy


MGM - Midnight Cowboy


Criterion - Midnight Cowboy


MGM - Midnight Cowboy


For the record, I do love The Criterion Collection. In my Blu-ray/Blu-ray Audio/DVD/SACD/DVD Audio collection with more than 3000 titles I proudly own 147 criterion (Blu-ray/DVD) titles and hopefully many more in the future.

Kind regards,

The German bluray of 'The Brood' removes the green tint and has beautiful colors as well. I had no idea Second Sight's edition of 'Scanners' was different too ... hmmm

[captainjoe]

Originally Posted by AnamorphicWidescreen

This whole argument began because I stated that the green/teal tint on the MC Criterion Blu-ray print looks like crap. And, yes - if unecessary green tint in a film is representing the "artist's vision", then the artist is an idiot.

That's the dumbest thing I've read in a while on here. Directors and DPs use colour to give a feel and create a mood. I just lit a bar scene today for a TV show with green gels. Guess I'm an idiot
I've said it before but these shots with a large green tint are in areas where practical fluorescent lights are being used and those photograph with a green hue depending on your camera settings. It's like the parking garage in All The President's Men. The other scenes people are showing just look to me like a more balanced image and in no way have a "tint." Criterion is better than the MGM simple as that

[malakaheso]

Sometimes you have situation where two completely different looking transfers have been approved by directors and/or cinematographers. Take Do The Right Thing as an example. The yellow tint/filter was removed for the blu-ray release. Supposedly the director or cinematographer approved of it. I have a hard time believing that Spike approved of that since it played theatrically with the yellow, but I've been given the opposite impression.

The Star Wars example is a bit extreme to me. That wasn't a case of a director messing with the look of the film. He went much further.

[thatguamguy]

A lot of times, the DP or director isn't necessarily comparing it to other prior releases, but just making sure it is internally consistent and never gets too dark to see or too bright to reveal anything which should be obscured. They aren't necessarily disc experts who immediately hone in on flaws that are common to specific labels but are consistently applied to the entire film. That is a lot easier to spot for a person who is aware of the label specifically, rather than for people who are looking at just that one film.

I was gonna bring up "Halloween", but honestly I can't remember off-hand whether the situation is that Cundey and Carpenter disagree or that Cundey himself has flip-flopped from the '70's to the '90's to today; I think it's the latter.

[MikeZ.]

With Deep Discount's current 15% off sale, Midnight Cowboy's price came down to $22.94.

After using Pay Pal w/my Chase card linked, price dropped to $21.79. A nickel cheaper than it would cost me if I waited until July for the 50% B & N sale.

[Dailyan]

Originally Posted by sperezmore

Criterion has a history

The green looks familiar?

Criterion - Dressed to Kill


Arrow Films - Dressed to Kill


Criterion - Dressed to Kill


Arrow Films - Dressed to Kill


Criterion - Dressed to Kill


Arrow Films - Dressed to Kill


Criterion - Scanners


Second Sight - Scanners


Criterion - Scanners


Second Sight - Scanners


Criterion - Scanners


Second Sight - Scanners


Criterion - Midnight Cowboy


MGM - Midnight Cowboy


Criterion - Midnight Cowboy


MGM - Midnight Cowboy


Criterion - Midnight Cowboy


MGM - Midnight Cowboy


Criterion - Midnight Cowboy


MGM - Midnight Cowboy


For the record, I do love The Criterion Collection. In my Blu-ray/Blu-ray Audio/DVD/SACD/DVD Audio collection with more than 3000 titles I proudly own 147 criterion (Blu-ray/DVD) titles and hopefully many more in the future.

Kind regards,

I noticed how you cherry pick 3 MGM controlled films. Criterion work with what they’re given with. If you have problems with “green” than that’s an MGM concern. Also you do realize that the beach scenes in “Midnight Cowboy” are from a dream sequence right? There’s a very good reason why it shouldn’t be “natural”.

[Kyle15]

Criterion's Scanners looks more filmlike to me but what do I know?

[malakaheso]

Originally Posted by Dailyan

Criterion work with what they’re given with.

You're making excuses. Criterion have the funds to make changes to what they are given if it isn't adequate.

If Arrow can do it, Criterion can too. Just compare their releases of The Tree of Wooden Clogs.

People need to stop giving Criterion an automatic pass because of their status in the game. The time for that is up.

[PowellPressburger]

I call bull$hit on the Criterion works with what they are given comment.

If that is the issue then how come other MGM transfers look correct and the Criterions contain the revisionism?

The criterion booklets credit colorists etc.

I agree Criterion need to start being held accountable for ruining transfers.

So many labels out there begging for their Blu-Rays to be purchased and Criterion does get a pass by many, but once you break the trust of the consumer time and time again with this hideous revisionism they become more cautious wait for reviews and decline adding a release to their library.

[Dailyan]

Originally Posted by PowellPressburger

I call bull$hit on the Criterion works with what they are given comment.

If that is the issue then how come other MGM transfers look correct and the Criterions contain the revisionism?

The criterion booklets credit colorists etc.

I agree Criterion need to start being held accountable for ruining transfers.

So many labels out there begging for their Blu-Rays to be purchased and Criterion does get a pass by many, but once you break the trust of the consumer time and time again with this hideous revisionism they become more cautious wait for reviews and decline adding a release to their library.

Sorry that artistic integrity is "ruining" transfers for you.

[PowellPressburger]

Originally Posted by Dailyan

Sorry that artistic integrity is "ruining" transfers for you.

defend the altered color tones all you want they are false.

[JoeBuck]

20180517_153438[1].jpg

Aaayy, look what I picked up today! (dont bother asking how)
Now I get to swoop in and ease some minds and shit all over people who are trash talking/over exaggerating the "green tint" on this release without having seen a single minute of the disc.

After doing a skip through I can happily say that some of the screenshots with green are in fact due to fluorescent lighting (main example being the dishwasher in the beginning) or a lot less prevalent than screenshots might have you believe.

Skintones, whites, blacks and colours all look very natural (and some look very rich and beautiful) and in line with the style/time period of the film. Skies look pretty spot on too from what I've seen so far. Damage from the previous print appears to be non-existent which was a big plus and theres a nice heavy grain field on the disc, it looks very nice.

I've taken a couple of photos on my phone that I'm going to attach below. I dont have a laptop that can take proper screenshots with, sadly, so this is best I can do.

After watching the supplement on the visual style, the cinematographer also mentions how they overexposed all of the flash backs/dream sequences to get a certain look to them which may also give a certain look to the colours.

The only thing that seemed outright off to me was that the black and white sequences are now that cold blue look similar to how Solaris now looks.

All in all I'm very pleased with this disc and would probably peg it at a 4.5/5.

[JoeBuck]

Sorry I cant do better than this! The blown out whites dont really help to show the opening scene but it at least shows that they are in fact white.
Another thing I noticed is that the screenshots attached to the review are a little darker than whats on disc, so that would also make that "blue" or "green" look you people are talking about seem more severe.

[Show spoiler]20180517_161508[1].jpg

[Show spoiler]20180517_161454[1].jpg

[Show spoiler]20180517_161330[1].jpg

[JoeBuck]

And this one

[Show spoiler]20180517_161556-2.jpg

[Dailyan]

But Joe, why should I believe what Adam Holender says when CLEARLY this is revisionism nonsense! THERE’S NO SUCH THING AS GREENISH SEA WATER. Altered colors!

I’m only kidding.