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Old 10-11-2010, 02:13 AM   #101
Big Daddy Big Daddy is offline
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Originally Posted by GregBe View Post
So I wanted to report back on my dual sub setup. Thanks Big Daddy for all of the help in your setup guides. I set up, measured with REW software and listened to many different locations using both gain matching and level matching.

In my room, level matching with one sub in the front right corner and one sub in the rear left corner worked out the best. It worked so well, I wound up selling my subwoofer equalizer over the weekend, because I got an unbelievably flat response at several seats.

I could not haves hoped for better results. The problem I faced in my room with one sub was, when placed in the front of the room, I got amazing deep bass at the cost of midbass. With the sub in the back of the room, I got really flat midbass, but a deep bass rolloff. I had hoped two sub would give me the best of both worlds, and it did.

One thing that I found cool, when walking around the room, when the sub test tone was playing while I was walking around the room adjusting the sub levels. It sounded solid and even all throuout the room. I never got that with one sub...it woulds always sound uneven as I walked around the room.

I sat down with my family Saturday night and we watched Harry Potter and Order of the Phoenix. I don't know if this movie is known for its bass, but we all were blown away.

Needless to say, I am pumped at my new dual setup.


We are waiting for the party and an invitation for a first-hand demonstration.
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Old 01-04-2011, 04:32 PM   #102
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For maximum output, some experts suggest that you put a single subwoofer in a corner for maximum output and place a second one in a less reflective area to smooth out the response. You can use the “crawl around the room” technique as described above for determining the location of the second subwoofer, except in this case, look for the minimum amount of bass output.
Hi Big Daddy, I was hoping to get your take on this quote. I have just recently recieved my second A2-300, and by coincidence, this is essentially how I have my subs set up (One in a front corner with good response, one on the back wall with minimal response according to the sub crawl).

It sounds pretty good, and maybe I was expecting more from a dual setup, but I am not totally blown away by the performance. I have run tones, calibrated the new setup and played with the phase until I have the maximum output at listening position. I was thinking that I needed to get my new sub into a position that had a better response according to the sub crawl, but this quote makes me think this isn't going to be any better.

I am of course going to experiment with position and settings, but I wanted to know if this is how you have positioned multiple subs.

Thanks!

On the diagram below, the display is at the bottom, the 'A' box represents my old A2-300, and the '3' box represents my current position for my new A2-300.

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Old 01-04-2011, 10:16 PM   #103
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Hi Big Daddy, I was hoping to get your take on this quote. I have just recently recieved my second A2-300, and by coincidence, this is essentially how I have my subs set up (One in a front corner with good response, one on the back wall with minimal response according to the sub crawl).

It sounds pretty good, and maybe I was expecting more from a dual setup, but I am not totally blown away by the performance. I have run tones, calibrated the new setup and played with the phase until I have the maximum output at listening position. I was thinking that I needed to get my new sub into a position that had a better response according to the sub crawl, but this quote makes me think this isn't going to be any better.

I am of course going to experiment with position and settings, but I wanted to know if this is how you have positioned multiple subs.

Thanks!

On the diagram below, the display is at the bottom, the 'A' box represents my old A2-300, and the '3' box represents my current position for my new A2-300.

The first sub is in a good location. You have to really experiment to find the best place for your second subwoofer. The idea behind the statement that you quoted was to get rid off most of the peaks and valleys of the standing waves and even out the bass. The main purpose of that statement was not to increase the bass output. Try positions 1 and 2. Also, stack them on top of each other and decide if you like it. You may get blown away. Stacking increases output by as much as 6dB's, but it will not help evening out the standing waves.

In my case, I have seven external subwoofers (two 15", four 12", & one 8") and one Clark Tactile Transducer under the sofa. This is in addition to the two 15" powered subwoofers in my front speakers. I simply have tried to overwhelm the standing waves. In one of the papers listed in post #2, the researchers ran simulation models with 5,000 subwoofers to study their effect on the standing waves. That is my goal.
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Old 01-04-2011, 11:44 PM   #104
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Thanks for the reply! The new sub certainly does seem less boomy and cleaner than my previous setup, so I think changing the positioning is the best bet. I appreciate your explanation of what that quote was trying to accomplish.

More moving I guess, and stacking might be a good thing to try.

At the back of the room (at the top of the diagram) there is a little nook I built for a desk and computer, and I placed my original A2-300 in there for a time. The output was amazing. I didn't take measurements, but an increase of 20db would not have surprised me. Unfortunately, it was just too boomy.

Thanks again!
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Old 05-17-2011, 06:28 PM   #105
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Hey Big Daddy,

We have a new house, and our Home Theater room is a regular "living room", but my options for where the Powered and Slave subwoofers can go (wife opinions included) are limited at best.

Here are some photos of where the Powered and Slave subwoofers are relative to each other. Also, the CSW Ensemble II satellite speakers come with their own passive sub -- which is now behind the Powered Sub (see the first image below).

Any suggestions to improve Bass? Right now -- if I dial the Powered sub past 3 on a 10 scale, everything is too boomy.

Also, should I consider switching the Red and Black leads on the Slave sub on the side of the room? Would that reverse it's Polarity, and potentially help?

Of course, we are considering a throw rug to help prevent too many reflections from the floor

TIA!

[Show spoiler]



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Old 05-17-2011, 11:10 PM   #106
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The subwoofer in the second picture is too close to the corner and the one in the third picture is too close to the wall. That is why they are boomy. Move them at least a foot and a half to two feet away from the walls. Also, if you put them on a riser, it may help.

If your subwoofers do not have a phase switch or phase dial, changing the polarity of the wires may help. It doesn't hurt to experiment.

The other issue is the wood floor. There are way too much reflection from the floor that may make the sound too cloudy. Put a thick area rug on the floor closer to the small speakers. An area rug does not have any effect on the low frequency waves, but it can help with the higher frequency reflections and improve imaging.

Some wall treatment and a few bass traps in the room may also help the quality of the sound and bass in your room, but wives are not too crazy about wall treatment and bass traps.

There are some designer bass traps and wall treatments that look like beautiful paintings, but they are a bit expensive.

Last edited by Big Daddy; 05-18-2011 at 12:50 AM.
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Old 05-18-2011, 03:03 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by Big Daddy View Post
The subwoofer in the second picture is too close to the corner and the one in the third picture is too close to the wall. That is why they are boomy. Move them at least a foot and a half to two feet away from the walls. Also, if you put them on a riser, it may help.

If your subwoofers do not have a phase switch or phase dial, changing the polarity of the wires may help. It doesn't hurt to experiment.

The other issue is the wood floor. There are way too much reflection from the floor that may make the sound too cloudy. Put a thick area rug on the floor closer to the small speakers. An area rug does not have any effect on the low frequency waves, but it can help with the higher frequency reflections and improve imaging.

Some wall treatment and a few bass traps in the room may also help the quality of the sound and bass in your room, but wives are not too crazy about wall treatment and bass traps.

There are some designer bass traps and wall treatments that look like beautiful paintings, but they are a bit expensive.
Interesting. I moved the sub on the left of the mains forward -- in line with the front of the entertainment center -- and it makes a noticeable difference. The subwoofer is now directing its output more to the full space of the room, and the secondary living room to its left.

I think it wasn't getting enough space "to breath" so far back.

I also put some card board under the front feet of the other sub so that it is directing less energy toward the floor, and slightly up toward the space of the room.

Doing both of these things seem to make the bass richer.

I guess I was worried also about cancelling signal out with the two subs firing 90 degrees from each other. Is that bad, or is it really just fine?

I will see if the wife will "ok" some carpet in the middle of that room. Lord knows that can be a difficult sell what with "we have a house with hardwood flooring" being a huge thing for the wife

Thanks for your help and advice!
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Old 05-18-2011, 07:00 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by DarkDune View Post
Interesting. I moved the sub on the left of the mains forward -- in line with the front of the entertainment center -- and it makes a noticeable difference. The subwoofer is now directing its output more to the full space of the room, and the secondary living room to its left.

I think it wasn't getting enough space "to breath" so far back.

I also put some card board under the front feet of the other sub so that it is directing less energy toward the floor, and slightly up toward the space of the room.

Doing both of these things seem to make the bass richer.

I guess I was worried also about cancelling signal out with the two subs firing 90 degrees from each other. Is that bad, or is it really just fine?

I will see if the wife will "ok" some carpet in the middle of that room. Lord knows that can be a difficult sell what with "we have a house with hardwood flooring" being a huge thing for the wife

Thanks for your help and advice!
Instead of cardboard, buy a good quality riser from Auralex or Elemental Designs. If you have the time, you can easily build a DIY riser. Check the following thread:

https://forum.blu-ray.com/subwoofers...er-risers.html

We have wood on both floors in our relatively large house. The only areas without wood floor are the bathrooms. They have tiles. We use nice Persian rugs to cover the middle part of most rooms and my wife love them. Naked wood floors have several disadvantages. You can use them as justification to your wife.
  1. They are too noisy whem someone wals on them. This can be bothersome particularly if someone is sleeping.
  2. They can easily get scratched with high heels or if you accidentaly drop something heavy on the floor.
  3. If people drop wine or orange juice, the floor can get discolored.
The phase is a tricky subject and there is no one-size-fits-all. You can try different settings and see if it helps. Chris Kyriakakis of Audyssey recommends that you always leave the phase on the back of the subwoofers to zero (default) position.
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Old 02-25-2012, 05:58 PM   #109
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I was reading the excellent article in this thread about room modes and trying to absorb it all. Question what happens to room modes when you have openings into other spaces? In my example I have a 12x25 room with two openings on one of the 25’ lengths. Also being a log home I have exposed 8" round ceilings joists every 2’. Curious what that would do as well compared to a flat sheet rock ceiling?

Thanks Bob
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Old 02-25-2012, 11:05 PM   #110
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I was reading the excellent article in this thread about room modes and trying to absorb it all. Question what happens to room modes when you have openings into other spaces? In my example I have a 12x25 room with two openings on one of the 25’ lengths. Also being a log home I have exposed 8" round ceilings joists every 2’. Curious what that would do as well compared to a flat sheet rock ceiling?

Thanks Bob
Standing waves occur between ceiling and floor, side walls, and end walls. They depend on the dimensions of the room. If one side of the room is open, it becomes more difficult to predict the location of room modes.

All material absorb and reflect sound. Some material absorb more and some reflect more. The type of material has more of an effect on the higher frequencies than the lower frequencies. The high frequency waves have very short wavelengths and can easily be absorbed. The lower frequencies below 100Hz have very long wavelengths that may be several times the dimension of the room. As a result, it is very difficult to absorb them like the higher frequencies.


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Old 09-17-2012, 07:42 PM   #111
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BD, where which is the proper thread to ask you about subwoofer placement & setup???

Thanks!!!
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Old 09-18-2012, 03:02 AM   #112
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BD, where which is the proper thread to ask you about subwoofer placement & setup???

Thanks!!!

A Guide to Subwoofers (Part I) deals with basic explanation of subwoofers and placement of one subwoofer in a room.

A Guide to Subwoofers (Part I) goes through the theory of interaction of bass waves with the room boundaries in a small home theater room and why we need more than one subwoofer. It also deals with placement of two or four subwoofers.

A Guide to Bass Management (Part II) and A Guide to Bass Management (Part II) have sections on pacement of subwoofers, but mainly they deal with subwoofer setup in a home theater.

If you are confused, don't worry. Even I get confused sometimes.
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Old 09-18-2012, 03:32 AM   #113
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A Guide to Subwoofers (Part I) deals with basic explanation of subwoofers and placement of one subwoofer in a room.

A Guide to Subwoofers (Part I) goes through the theory of interaction of bass waves with the room boundaries in a small home theater room and why we need more than one subwoofer. It also deals with placement of two or four subwoofers.

A Guide to Bass Management (Part II) and A Guide to Bass Management (Part II) have sections on pacement of subwoofers, but mainly they deal with subwoofer setup in a home theater.

If you are confused, don't worry. Even I get confused sometimes.
I already read them and they are SUPERB!!. But because every room is a new story, I'll post my loooong story on A Guide to Bass Management (Part II). Thanks a lot!!!
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Old 04-26-2013, 02:49 PM   #114
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Question about the subcrawl. Is that a one spot fits all or when I get a new sub do I have to subcrawl again?

Reason I'm asking: right now I have a psw505. I ordered a PSA XV30 and am getting ready to rearrange my room. If I can use the Polk sub (which weighs about a quarter of the psa sub) it would be a lot easier, plus I can have the room setup the best way for when the monster actually arrives.

I'd much rather do the subcrawl with the psw than have to wait for the new one, if possible. But it the difference in the sub is going to cause a different sweet spot, I'll wait
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Old 04-26-2013, 04:18 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by hsox05 View Post
Question about the subcrawl. Is that a one spot fits all or when I get a new sub do I have to subcrawl again?

Reason I'm asking: right now I have a psw505. I ordered a PSA XV30 and am getting ready to rearrange my room. If I can use the Polk sub (which weighs about a quarter of the psa sub) it would be a lot easier, plus I can have the room setup the best way for when the monster actually arrives.

I'd much rather do the subcrawl with the psw than have to wait for the new one, if possible. But it the difference in the sub is going to cause a different sweet spot, I'll wait
You are going to want to wait and do the crawl on the newer more capable sub first. Then once that has been placed and is running you should then be able to find a secondary position for the Polk. If your room responds like a typical room the PSA will probably be best at a location farthest from your listening position and then the little Polk would work best somewhere near field. Just to warn you it's not best to mix such dissimilar subs.
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Old 04-26-2013, 04:20 PM   #116
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You are going to want to wait and do the crawl on the newer more capable sub first. Then once that has been placed and is running you should then be able to find a secondary position for the Polk. If your room responds like a typical room the PSA will probably be best at a location farthest from your listening position and then the little Polk would work best somewhere near field. Just to warn you it's not best to mix such dissimilar subs.
Hm guess I wasn't clear. I am not trying to mix the subs. I am just going to use the PSA. I just wanted to know if I could subcrawl with the Polk to find the sweet spot, then just drop the PSA sub there when it arrives, or if the sweet spot would be different for the subs.
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Old 04-26-2013, 04:22 PM   #117
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Quote:
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You are going to want to wait and do the crawl on the newer more capable sub first. Then once that has been placed and is running you should then be able to find a secondary position for the Polk. If your room responds like a typical room the PSA will probably be best at a location farthest from your listening position and then the little Polk would work best somewhere near field. Just to warn you it's not best to mix such dissimilar subs.
+1...and it might be a good idea to set the low pass filter on the back of the Polk sub to get no lower than 60 - 80 Hz or so, as you don't want that thing trying to hit the lower frequencies during a demanding scene. It would just create distortion and some localization trying to "keep up" with the PSA. Good luck!
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Old 04-26-2013, 05:00 PM   #118
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Hm guess I wasn't clear. I am not trying to mix the subs. I am just going to use the PSA. I just wanted to know if I could subcrawl with the Polk to find the sweet spot, then just drop the PSA sub there when it arrives, or if the sweet spot would be different for the subs.
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You are going to want to wait and do the crawl on the newer more capable sub first.
I believe that is the answer you are looking for. Are you planning to sell your polk sub or use it somehow?
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Old 04-26-2013, 05:05 PM   #119
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Hm guess I wasn't clear. I am not trying to mix the subs. I am just going to use the PSA. I just wanted to know if I could subcrawl with the Polk to find the sweet spot, then just drop the PSA sub there when it arrives, or if the sweet spot would be different for the subs.
I understand now. And the answer is still wait. Different subwoofers react differently in a room. The Polk might sound good in position A but the PSA might sound like crap in position A.
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Old 04-26-2013, 05:08 PM   #120
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I believe that is the answer you are looking for. Are you planning to sell your polk sub or use it somehow?
Haven't decided yet. I offered it to my brother that had a HTIB but I forgot those things use proprietary cables and he couldn't really do anything with it. I don't see myself spending any more money on upgrades or new speakers for a different room in the near future, so selling it is probably my best bet.

Last edited by hsox05; 04-26-2013 at 05:13 PM.
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