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Old 04-20-2010, 05:54 AM   #201
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Quote:
Originally Posted by srrndhound View Post
Yes, assuming as you stated, you only listen to correctly dialnormed discs.

But even then, there is no guarantee that you will like the result all the time. Just because various movies or programs are correctly dialnormed does not mean we might prefer them to play at some different level, based on our mood, time of day, others in the audience, or the movie's mixing style.

Does the PS3 really apply dial norm through lpcm because when I watch movies such as star trek (-4) or Transformers 2 Imax (-4) I need to up the volume about 4db to level match them properly. For instance I was watching heat the other day without knowing the dial norm value I guessed it was (-4) or dial norm value (-27) as I had to up to the volume while watching it and I just checked on my friends system and I was correct. So from my experience the ps3 does not level match dolby true hd tracks through lpcm.

For instance when comparing the regular transformers 2 blu ray to the imax edition, many people complained the imax edition lacked power and sounded quieter. Joshua Zyber from high def digest explained this as
"For some reason, the Big Screen Blu-ray has been authored with a different Dialogue Normalization value than the regular Blu-ray, and thus has been set for a default volume 4 dB lower. The two soundtracks are otherwise identical.

Dialogue Normalization does not affect the lossless nature, the dynamic range, or the quality of the soundtrack. All it does is set the overall volume level, and is no different than turning the volume knob on your A/V receiver. So long as you raise the volume at your receiver by 4 dB when watching the Big Screen copy, you'll get the same results as the regular Blu-ray. "

However you guys are telling me that the ps3 through lpcm should level match the imax edition with the regular edition automatically correct? Or am I interpreting this all wrong?

Last edited by mac.21; 04-20-2010 at 06:02 AM.
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Old 04-20-2010, 08:12 AM   #202
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mac.21 View Post
Does the PS3 really apply dial norm through lpcm because when I watch movies such as star trek (-4) or Transformers 2 Imax (-4) I need to up the volume about 4db to level match them properly.
That you felt a need to increase the volume 4 dB is evidence that dialnorm is indeed being applied in the PS3. It usually reduces the volume by 4 dB.

Quote:
However you guys are telling me that the ps3 through lpcm should level match the imax edition with the regular edition automatically correct?
No. In the case of Transformers 2, the same movie was apparently encoded with two different dialnorm values, so one is correct, the other is not. In that case, dialnorm cannot correctly normalize them to each other.

Last edited by srrndhound; 04-24-2010 at 05:01 AM.
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Old 04-20-2010, 03:39 PM   #203
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Quote:
Originally Posted by srrndhound View Post
That you felt a need to increase the volume 4 dB is evidence that dialnorm is indeed being applied in the PS3. It usually reduces the volume by 4 dB.

No. In the case of Transformers 2, the same movie was apparently encoded with two different two dialnorm values, so one is correct, the other is not. In that case, dialnorm cannot correctly normalize them to each other.
Perfect, thanks a lot. So the ps3 applies dialnorm correctly meaning on audio tracks with a dial norm value of -27 or (-4) as listed in the table in the first page, the ps3 reduces the volume by 4db which means I need to raise it up 4db manually to level match it. I think I get it now, I appreciate the quick reply.
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Old 04-23-2010, 11:04 PM   #204
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Avatar DTS MA is +4

Finally
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Old 04-24-2010, 02:10 AM   #205
RocShemp RocShemp is offline
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Originally Posted by crazyBLUE View Post
Avatar DTS MA is +4

Finally
Really? Cos it sounds more like -4dB to me and the folk in The Avatar Blu-ray Release Thread.
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Old 04-24-2010, 02:22 AM   #206
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crazyBLUE View Post
Avatar DTS MA is +4

Finally
Quote:
Originally Posted by RocShemp View Post
Really? Cos it sounds more like -4dB to me and the folk in The Avatar Blu-ray Release Thread.
Dialog normalization never increases the volume. But, you need to know what your receiver means when it reports offsets. They don't all do it the same way.
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Old 04-24-2010, 02:26 AM   #207
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Originally Posted by BIslander View Post
Dialog normalization never increases the volume. But, you need to know what your receiver means when it reports offsets. They don't all do it the same way.
We have had this problem before. Pioneer receivers have a strange way of reporting dialnorm offsets. I really don't know what +4dB means. Does it mean the receiver is increasing the volume by +4dB?

Last edited by Big Daddy; 04-24-2010 at 09:08 PM.
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Old 04-24-2010, 03:21 AM   #208
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Originally Posted by BIslander View Post
Dialog normalization never increases the volume. But, you need to know what your receiver means when it reports offsets. They don't all do it the same way.
I know that but I've seen the +4 display on my Onkyo TX-SR705 and said tracks sound louder than anything with a negative rating. For instance, my DVD of Black Hawk Down (-1)sounds lower than my mom's DVD of Monster-In-Law (+4).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Daddy View Post
We have had this problem before. Pioneer receivers have a strange way of reporting dialnorm offsets. I really don't know what +4dB really means. Does it mean the receiver is increasing the volume by +4dB?
srrndhound suggested that such receivers are using -27 as a starting point rather than -31 but they don't ever raise the volume.

I'm guessing they still apply dialnorm correctly but tell you how louder or lower a given track is relative to -27 rather than -31.

value...........display...........offset
-31..................+4.................0
-29..................+2................-2
-27.................n/a................-4
-26...................-1................-5
-25...................-2................-6
-23...................-4................-8

Or perhaps I have it backwards...

Hey, Big Daddy, is there a list like yours online but for DVDs?

EDIT: I found the following in the Why so much emphasis on reference level thread over at AVS:

Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post
If you know what the dialnorm value is, then you can adust the master volume level to compensate for the value used if you want to. But unless you are determined to playback at "reference level", then why bother. Set the master volume level so it sounds right to your ears. THX receivers have a dialnorm offset readout as far as I know.

I use the calibrated reference level setting on my master volume control as a not to exceed setting. Your ears can get tired and fool you on how loud you are playing your system.


Just for fun, here are some dialnorm settings for some various DD DVDs. No volume reduction for a dialnorm value of -31.

DD Dialnorm values:

Most DD DVD's = -27

Air Force One = -31

WOTW = -23

Spiderman = -25 (as I recall)

Master and Commander = -27

Knight's Tale = -26

Silverado = -29

All old James Bond features = -31

Batman Begins = -27

The Dark Knight = -31

Lethal Weapon series = -31
As expected, Master and Commander resulted in no display whatsoever.

However, Silverado resulted in a +4 display (I expected +2). Was there a DVD release of Silverado other than the superbit?

Lethal Weapon, Lethal Weapon 2, and Lethal Weapon 3 all display +4 on my receiver.

Spider-Man displays as +2.

Last edited by RocShemp; 04-24-2010 at 04:59 AM.
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Old 04-24-2010, 06:24 AM   #209
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RocShemp View Post
I know that but I've seen the +4 display on my Onkyo TX-SR705 and said tracks sound louder than anything with a negative rating. For instance, my DVD of Black Hawk Down (-1)sounds lower than my mom's DVD of Monster-In-Law (+4).
Dialnorm, if entered properly, is only a measurement of the average dialog level in a program. It says nothing about any other audio levels. But, measurements are rarely done to determine actual dialog levels. And, since louder is generally perceived as better, there's no telling when a studio or producer simply decides to make things louder. Sony decided to start using -31 instead of -27. But, I am quite certain Sony hasn't changed the average dialog levels of its movies by 4dB.

Quote:
I'm guessing they still apply dialnorm correctly but tell you how louder or lower a given track is relative to -27 rather than -31.
Why guess? There's a long list of genunine DN values in this thread taken from a Denon receiver that accurately reports DN offsets. Someone with a Pioneer can simply play these discs and see what the Pioneer reports. Pretty simple to figure out what's being reported.
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Old 04-24-2010, 08:40 AM   #210
RocShemp RocShemp is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BIslander View Post
Dialnorm, if entered properly, is only a measurement of the average dialog level in a program. It says nothing about any other audio levels. But, measurements are rarely done to determine actual dialog levels. And, since louder is generally perceived as better, there's no telling when a studio or producer simply decides to make things louder. Sony decided to start using -31 instead of -27. But, I am quite certain Sony hasn't changed the average dialog levels of its movies by 4dB.
I understand how it's measured. However, when it's applied, it attenuates volume as a whole. Hence why discs with a -31 value tend to sound louder than those with a -27 value.

It is too bad proper measurements are rarely done as it ruins any potential convenience gained from dialnorm.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BIslander View Post
Why guess? There's a long list of genunine DN values in this thread taken from a Denon receiver that accurately reports DN offsets. Someone with a Pioneer can simply play these discs and see what the Pioneer reports. Pretty simple to figure out what's being reported.
My guess is due to the odd way my Onkyo reports offsets. It uses a "+/-" scale rather than showing everything in "-" increments. This is why I theorized that it uses -27 as a base value rather than -31.

Which is what I tried to illustrate with my little table.

Quote:
value...........display...........offset
-31..................+4.................0
-29..................+2................-2
-27.................n/a................-4
-26...................-1................-5
-25...................-2................-6
-23...................-4................-8
My PS3 doesn't bitstream lossless so I used DVDs instead. Of course later I recalled that Big Daddy's list also features offsets for lossy tracks as well.

Last edited by RocShemp; 04-24-2010 at 01:33 PM.
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Old 04-24-2010, 12:50 PM   #211
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Daddy View Post
We have had this problem before. Pioneer receivers have a strange way of reporting dialnorm offsets. I really don't know what +4dB means. Does it mean the receiver is increasing the volume by +4dB?
As you know Big Daddy I have tried for awhile to figure out how to find the dialNorm on my Elite . I was looking at the receivers display yesterday to see what the volume was at just as the movie was about to start (Avatar) . It showed the dialnorn on the receiver for about 10 seconds & then went to DTS master Audio on the display just like it should . I just happen to notice it shows you the dialnorm Automaticly .

I have taken 5 movies off your list & written them down . Later today when I turn the system on to get ready for the race I will check the 5 out & post the results later .

Last edited by Big Daddy; 04-24-2010 at 09:09 PM.
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Old 04-26-2010, 12:31 AM   #212
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Big Daddy , I put these Movies in & they all showed the same thing on my receiver Dialnorm +4

District 9 ~ DTS HD MSTR
Face Off ~ English 6.1 DTS
Hitman ~ DTS HD MSTR
Ironman ~ Dolby True
2012 ~ DTS HD MSTR

I don't know why , But I think the receiver is doing something with it maybe . sense I have had the SC-07 the dialog has never been A Problem , always strong even at low levels . Am I crazy

I started to look through the manual & haven't found anything yet , Still have plenty more to go .

I am going to figure this out
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Old 04-26-2010, 03:19 AM   #213
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I understand these, as they are all -31:

District 9 ~ DTS HD MSTR
Face Off ~ English 6.1 DTS
Hitman ~ DTS HD MSTR
2012 ~ DTS HD MSTR

But not this one, as it's -27:

Ironman ~ Dolby True

Except for that last one, I'd assume your Pioneer works like my Onkyo.

Last edited by RocShemp; 04-27-2010 at 01:55 AM.
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Old 04-26-2010, 07:57 AM   #214
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crazyBLUE View Post
Avatar DTS MA is +4

Finally
I checked Avatar on my Denon receiver. Its dialog Normalization offsets are as follows:

Avatar Blu-ray

English DTS-HD MA 5.1: 0dB
Engilish DD 2.0: 0dB
English DD Descriptive Audio 5.1: 0dB
Spanish/French/Portuguese DD 5.1: 0dB

Avatar DVD

DD 5.1: 0dB
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Old 04-26-2010, 11:43 AM   #215
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Daddy View Post
I checked Avatar on my Denon receiver. Its dialog Normalization offsets are as follows:

Avatar Blu-ray

English DTS-HD MA 5.1: 0dB
Engilish DD 2.0: 0dB
English DD Descriptive Audio 5.1: 0dB
Spanish/French/Portuguese DD 5.1: 0dB

Avatar DVD

DD 5.1: 0dB
There has got to be A reason my receiver is saying different offsets . And having them all the same as well
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Old 04-26-2010, 01:14 PM   #216
RocShemp RocShemp is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Daddy View Post
I checked Avatar on my Denon receiver. Its dialog Normalization offsets are as follows:

Avatar Blu-ray

English DTS-HD MA 5.1: 0dB
Engilish DD 2.0: 0dB
English DD Descriptive Audio 5.1: 0dB
Spanish/French/Portuguese DD 5.1: 0dB

Avatar DVD

DD 5.1: 0dB
Facinating. It sure doesn't sound like a 0dB offset (-31dB value) disc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by crazyBLUE View Post
There has got to be A reason my receiver is saying different offsets . And having them all the same as well
If your receiver displays +4 for Avatar, then, much like my receiver, it uses -27 as its 0 setting when it comes to displaying offsets. Basically this:

value...........display...........offset
-31..................+4.................0
-29..................+2................-2
-27....................0................-4
-26...................-1................-5
-25...................-2................-6
-23...................-4................-8

The only curious factor is that Iron Man (a -27 value/-4dB offset disc) is also reporting +4 on your receiver.
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Old 04-26-2010, 05:35 PM   #217
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Is dialnorm 100% necessary on all bd's or can they do without dialnorm? I've read how Sony/Columbia stopped using dialnorm on their bd's.
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Old 04-26-2010, 07:13 PM   #218
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Originally Posted by oppopioneer View Post
Is dialnorm 100% necessary on all bd's or can they do without dialnorm? I've read how Sony/Columbia stopped using dialnorm on their bd's.
Dialnorm is a required metadata field on Dolby Digital and DTS-HD encoders. So, yes, it is necessary. But, is it useful? Probably not. Unlike TV broadcasts, which have huge variations in dialog levels from program to program, dialog in movies is done in a fairly tight range. Besides, the movie viewing experience is different from watching TV broadcasts. With movies, there's a single program being watched. You can set the level where you want and leave it there. With TV, you have to deal with a series of programs, commercials, and promos where dialog levels may vary significantly.

Dolby and Audyssey and others are now developing software designed to manage changing volume levels dynamically rather than relying on dialnorm metadata. That's probably a better approach.

btw, Sony did not "stop using dialnorm". That's not possible. Rather, Sony decided to enter a DN value that prevents the decoder from attenuating the output.
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Old 04-26-2010, 07:38 PM   #219
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RocShemp View Post
I get these, as they are all -31:

District 9 ~ DTS HD MSTR
Face Off ~ English 6.1 DTS
Hitman ~ DTS HD MSTR
2012 ~ DTS HD MSTR

But not this one, as it's -27:

Ironman ~ Dolby True

Except for that last one, I'd assume your Pioneer works like my Onkyo.
Hey Rocshemp, which onkyo do you have? Were you able to get a dial norm values with dts hd audio tracks as I am only to get dolby true hd dial norm values on my onkyo 705.
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Old 04-26-2010, 09:11 PM   #220
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Originally Posted by mac.21 View Post
Hey Rocshemp, which onkyo do you have? Were you able to get a dial norm values with dts hd audio tracks as I am only to get dolby true hd dial norm values on my onkyo 705.
I too have an Onkyo TX-SR705. Therefor, I should have said "I understand" rather than "I get". I corrected my poor grammar in that post.
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