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Old 08-18-2019, 07:34 AM   #181
solal solal is offline
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el777 thank you for all the info. Knowing that, what's your overall feeling about the projector, do you think it's worth the money ? I see you have an xbox on the picture did you test some game in HDR ? How does it look? And does HDR work in instant game mode ?
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Old 08-18-2019, 01:17 PM   #182
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Right, so I just got a response from LG about my inquiry about the 24p support.

Here is a direct copy from the message:

We really appreciate your time in sending us an email in regards with your inquiry about supported native resolution of the LG HU85LA Projector. I completely understand your query and it’s my pleasure to assist you with this.

Below information are the lists of supported resolution of the projector:
3840 X 2160p @ 50 Hz
4096 X 2160 @ 60 Hz

For the Real Cinema option, definitely this projector has it.

I’m happy that I was able to assist you today. If you need further assistance, please email us back again. You may also contact us via Live Chat, or by calling LG Customer Service Toll Free Number at 1-800-243-0000. For repair service you may visit this link: https://www.lg.com/us/support/repair...chedule-repair

Thank you for choosing LG. Have a blessed and wonderful Sunday!



I have left the support assistants name out of the quote for obvious reasons.

They forgot to answer about 1080p signals, but I guess that's the same as for 2160p.

Real Cinema option/setting seems to do nothing as el777 mentioned earlier.


If anyone is interested to have a copy of this email, I'll be glad to assist.

Maybe they'll improve next year, I'll try to have this feedback sent their way.
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Old 08-18-2019, 01:41 PM   #183
Robert Zohn Robert Zohn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by el777 View Post
I tried the judder test from RTINGS recommended earlier. I set my Nvidia shield to 4K@24p and confirmed it was running at that. I tried with real cinema setting on and off and had trumotion set to off. I had my camera at 1s exposure and unfortunately got this image. I'm not sure what I'm missing as I've never noticed judder while watching movies but apparently the HU85LA does have judder issues with 24p content.
Thanks for performing the test and reporting back! Did you notice any perceivable difference with Real Cinema on and off when playing 24p content? Also did the 1 second exposure look different with Real Cinema on or off?

We have not seen any judder on our two HU85LA demo units. But I have not done any tests as we're waiting for Joel Silver or Kevin Miller to give us their 24p and judder test patterns. To speed this testing up I can ask David Mackenzie for his 24p and judder test methodology.

I know it's true that the HU85LA is native to 60Hz, but 24p content plays beautifully with no noticeable judder. I'll run some other tests to see is we can learn more about the HU85LA conversion of 24p to its native 60Hz is operating. I'll try the judder test from Spears and Munsil 10bit disc.
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Old 08-18-2019, 05:37 PM   #184
el777 el777 is offline
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Whew, seems I got lot to answer here. I'll do my best but first I'll say I'm not expert in this stuff. I'm just a guy who wanted a big ass screen in his basement

@Venue Thanks for reaching out to LG, seems we have our answer now. What does this mean in reality?... I'm not sure. You're probably right that if I had two next to each other and one could do 24p well and one could not, I could see the difference. Right now, though, ignorance is bliss. I don't really know what I'm looking for and I don't notice any image problems (judder, stutter, etc.) when watching 4K HDR content. The Nvidia Shield is primarily a streaming device like the Apple TV 4K but instead runs Android. I have both the Nvidia Shield and Apple TV 4K and I am not seeing any issues with streamed content at 24p. I used the Shield to do the RTINGS test because I can load downloaded videos with Kodi via USB. During that test I tried lots of different settings, 24p, 60p, real cinema on/off, trumotion on/off. They all turned out the same except for trumotion being on.. that created a really weird looking pattern but that's expected with it injecting frames. The only bluray player that I have right now that can play 4K HDR is my Xbox One S and I played some Avengers Infinity War on it. Watching Spiderman swing through the city towards the beginning of the movie did not produce any noticeable judder that I could tell.. but again.. not sure what I'm really looking for. I'm pretty picky when it comes to stuff like this and if something was glaringly bad, I would've noticed it. I also tried watching the same scene with Game mode on (so that Real Cinema turns off) and i couldn't really tell a difference.

@solal Hmm.. asking if this projector is worth the money is tough. It depends on how much you value this kind of thing. I decided to give up some quality (65" OLED) for bigger size (120" screen UST projector). I didn't want to pay an electrician to come out and run power to my ceiling and I also didn't want to change out bulbs or deal with fan noise above my head. Lastly, I throw LAN parties twice a year where my entire basement is full of people and I have the lights on while streaming Twitch or something similar. Having the EliteScreens Aeon CLR screen is nothing short of amazing when the lights are on. Turning on my basement lights essentially does nothing negative to the image quality. I'll be able to stream stuff with the lights on/dimmed and everyone will be able to watch with no issues. All of this seemed to point to me getting a UST projector. This also meant I would pay more for going UST than for normal projectors that are equal or better quality but I was fine with that.. I like the advantages of UST too much.

I did test some PS4 games in HDR and it did seem to kick it in game mode automatically (instant game response). I tried Red Dead Redemption 2 and it looked great. As good as my OLED in HDR?.. no, but it's 120 inches so who cares lol. Jokes aside, it's good. I'm going to enjoy gaming on this thing a lot. Game mode is required when playing games, though, so things like Trumotion aren't going to be available. When game mode is off, games are unplayable due to input lag.. it's bad.. but with game mode on I notice no lag when playing. Was this projector worth the price for me and what I wanted? YES.

@Robert I don't notice any real differences with Real Cinema on or off but as I mentioned above, I don't really know what I'm looking for. Since nothing is glaringly bad or obvious, I'm not bothered by whatever judder there could be. Camera pics at 1 second exposure looked no different with Real Cinema on vs. off.

Lastly, I'll mention one more thing that is odd. I was watching Umbrella Academy on Netflix for the past couple of nights. This show has a lot of dark scenes where there are small bright lights in areas. I noticed when darting my eyes across the screen that those bright lights would become multi-colored. I didn't think anything of it but when I noticed it the second night, I wanted to make sure I wasn't damaging my eyes in some way and looked it up. Apparently, I'm experiencing the "rainbow effect" that is common with single chip DLP projectors that use a color wheel. This projector doesn't use a color wheel so I'm not sure why I'm seeing this. My wife doesn't notice it at all and it's only minor for me so I'm not too bothered by it. Just thought it was odd.
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Old 08-18-2019, 06:47 PM   #185
Venue Venue is offline
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@el777, thanks for the additional information.

There is a better 24p motion test available with a much clearer perceivable effect.

It's basically three rows of moving white bars in different speeds.

Each row should have its bars moving across the screen in an equalled timed rate.

Meaning, the 'flashing' of one of the rows bars should all have their bars 100% vertically intact.

By this I mean that the bars should never drop their shape, be split in half, or jerk in motion.

The idea behind a true 24p (23,976fps) manner is a constant timed frame delivery without added jerked motion introduced by 3:2 pulldown in this case.

You should not be able to tell any deviation from the motion pattern, it should be constant and perceived in an exact manner by your vision.

The topmost row should be the easiest row to spot mistakes in.


Here is a link to the test, it's taken from AVSforum, you should pick the (1080p) 23,976p file.

https://www.sendspace.com/file/5mvgsn


My description above is how I would describe the motion to look like when displayed correctly.

You should of saved your OLED and put the side by side for best comparison!

Last edited by Venue; 08-18-2019 at 06:50 PM. Reason: Added information.
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Old 08-18-2019, 08:23 PM   #186
el777 el777 is offline
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Did the test you posted above. The 23.976 1080p file produces no obvious jerking that I can see. It isn't as smooth as the 60hz but I'm assuming that's because 60hz is a higher refresh rate and higher fps. When I switch to game mode (real cinema off) I see some jerking in the top row on 23.976p at the beginning of the test but it eventually becomes non-jerky.
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Old 08-19-2019, 07:07 AM   #187
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el777, that's very odd.

The first (https://www.rtings.com/) test showed the HU85LA having issues with 24p judder.

Now you experience the second test without any deviations from the intended motion pattern.

It should not fail the first test if the second one passes.

Something is wrong, either with the test, the product and/or the settings.

You shall have many thanks for performing these tests.


I'm just not sure we could ever draw a conclusion by doing these tests remotely over the internet.

I find the (https://www.rtings.com/) test to be the most reliable test, with absolute failproof methods.

It's all up to what one experiences over the other with the perceivable tests.


Does anyone have a judder-free 24p direct-view display who can perform these tests side by side?

I have one, but I don't have the projector.

el777, yes, the 60hz will be smoother than 24hz due to the nature of our vision.
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Old 08-19-2019, 10:58 AM   #188
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el777, developed a simple way to perceive the difference between true 24p and 3:2 pulldown.

Might of involved unnecessary steps to retrieve results, but anyone can replicate the pattern easily.

You just need an ordinary desktop or laptop computer with a 60hz resolution.


I basically installed a screen recorder software on my budget computer.

It is using Intel's internal video processor within the CPU to display the picture.

Within Windows, I made sure that the 'Intel Graphics Settings' was set to 60hz resolution mode.

Almost all computers have 60hz resolution set by default, so no change in settings should be required.


I then installed MPC-HC playback software, it can be officially downloaded here (direct link):

https://binaries.mpc-hc.org/MPC%20Ho...1.7.13.x86.exe


Once installed, open MPC-HC, navigate to the following:

View > Options... > Player > Open Options

Here you need to select 'Open a new player for each media file played'

Press 'Apply' and exit out of the application.


Download these two media files containing the demonstration, they will only be available for one week from now:

https://wetransfer.com/downloads/6f7...9103948/5bf51b


They have been recorded with 60fps and 24fps respectively.

Both files originate from the 24p motion pattern from AVSforum I linked yesterday.

Open both files with MPC-HC, they do not need to be opened simultaneously.


Once opened, put them next to each other on your computer screen.

Find the 'Decrease Speed' button near the seeker bar in the bottom left corner.

Push it three (3) times until the playback speed settles for 0.13x speed.

Do this for both files.


Now you can examine how the motion is different between the two.

The 24fps recorded file has a more clean stutter than the 60fps counterpart.

If described into words, I would say the perceivable effect is more like 'tick-tock' for the 60fps file, while the 24fps file is more like 'tick-tick-tick...'

It is being played back at a more constant timed rate within the set time domain.


Perceivable for everybody at a normal playback rate? Most surely not.

Perceivable for myself at a normal playback rate? Yes, it is!


I am not too experienced with home cinema equipment or display techniques.

This simple test show how things ultimately must be different between native 24p and 3:2 pulldown.

You probably cannot see it without a display in comparison.


I hope you do see a difference with this test I pulled together!
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Old 08-19-2019, 12:35 PM   #189
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Here is an excellent video showing the real-life effects of the 3:2 pulldown.

The native 24p playback can be seen to the right.


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Old 08-19-2019, 02:04 PM   #190
el777 el777 is offline
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I honestly don't see a difference in the video you posted. I've watched it a few times now. If I get some time today (at work), I'll check to see if I can spot a difference using the method you posted with MPC-HC.
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Old 08-19-2019, 03:24 PM   #191
el777 el777 is offline
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I performed your test using MPC-HC and could see a difference much like you explained (tick-tock vs. tick-tick). I only see this when slowed down, though, and don't really see a difference at normal speed.

Maybe I'm not as picky or sensitive as I thought. The differences between the RTINGS test and the other test is probably due to how I, personally, am perceiving the second test. I don't notice judder if it's there. Others probably are more sensitive to judder but maybe I'm not, not sure.
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Old 08-19-2019, 03:43 PM   #192
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el777, thank you for your information!

I am not out to seek minor flaws or subtle deviations not perceivable by our vision.

It is more that one can purchase an OLED for $6,000 and have natural 24p support, HLG and native 4K.

However, spending $6,000 on a projector from the same brand, you get neither.


There should at least be native 24p support as the product is advertised in use with home theater.

'Bring the cinema home', it is not quite the whole truth.

I sincerely hope that the HU85LA can be flashed with an update firmware allowing for native 24p support.

I have submitted an inquiry and they are currently investigating the possibilities as we speak.


This would mean the projector would utilize a 48hz operation upon 24p signal detection.

Thank you for all your help and efforts into letting us know the current state of the HU85LA.


Fingers crossed!
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Old 08-19-2019, 03:57 PM   #193
el777 el777 is offline
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@Venue

No problem, glad I could help. I just hope the information I provided and your inquiry to LG can improve the product if needed. I still have my OLEDs (a 65" E6 and 55" C7) but they aren't big enough for what I wanted for a home theater. I was willing to give up quality for size. If LG made a 120" OLED.. can you imagine the price? lol. There isn't a perfect product for a huge home theater experience. Maybe microLED will solve that eventually. For now, I'm happy with the HU85LA and will enjoy using it for movies, shows, and gaming. A 65" OLED just isn't as immersive as a 120" screen.
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Old 08-19-2019, 04:08 PM   #194
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el777, that's exactly my case as well.

I have the LG OLED65C7P, sitting at too far of a distance to justify the size.


Been looking at the HU85LA since the announce back at CES2019.

I need a 96" 2.39:1 screen to accomodate my seating distance.

It will never be OLED quality, but I am willing to sacrifice performance over size.


I don't mind the non-native 4K specification, nor the HLG to be frank.

But the inability to handle 24p correctly just makes me question their intent with the product.

Knowing the internal components from Texas Instrument have been updated with a firmware to enable support for 24p playback,
drives my eager questioning LG's ability and will to apply those updates to the HU85LA.

This is pretty much my only tipping point with the projector.

I can't afford the best of the best, it would cost too much.


I will update this thread as soon as I have received their initial response.
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