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Go Back   Blu-ray Forum > Audio > Subwoofers


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Old 12-05-2011, 04:48 PM   #21
djkest djkest is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hakstone View Post
Great thread. Is there any such thing as musical versus HT subs or it more about size ? I'm thinking smaller("10) sealed would be more musical as opposed to "18 ported. I have 3 mediocre subs which are not musical at all and would like to get 2 subs for music only(5.1).
Well, there is some debate on this topic but I will tell you what I do know.

TLDR: Sealed Subs are best for music, 12" is generally a good compromise, but 10-15" is good. Ported subs can be almost as good, and will have more output in the 20-40 Hz region, which may not be needed for most music.

Long Version:
When it comes to subs, size matters. Bigger cones move more air, and in general play lower and more efficiently. Larger subs typically have a greater XMAX and greater power handling.

Here's some general numbers, not counting the surround, which varies.
8" subwoofer cone: 50.27 square inches
10" subwoofer cone: 78.54 square inches
12" subwoofer cone: 113.1 square inches (44% larger than 10")
15" subwoofer cone: 176.7 square inches
18" subwoofer cone: 254.47 square inches (bigger than 5 8" drivers!)

In general, the larger a subwoofer driver is, the lower it's resonant frequency, the higher it's sensativity, and the greater it's power handling is. Of course there are exceptions to this rule, like the Exodus Anarchy 6.5" subwoofer that has over 15mm of xmax...

Sealed, why?
You may have heard the term "fast bass", so what does that mean? Most likely that is Transient Response, which is a measure of input signal to output signal: how does your system respond to an input signal? Sealed systems have the best transient response. Ported systems have worse transient response, but how much worse depends on the enclosure design: as tuning frequency approaches 0 Hz, the system approaches a sealed design, and transient response improves to sealed levels. There is also group delay, which is defined as "a measure of the time delay of the amplitude envelopes of the various sinusoidal components of a signal through a device under test, and is a function of frequency for each component". Sealed designs also have good damping, which returns the subwoofer back to it's resting state faster. So essentially you are getting "fast, accurate bass" with a proper sealed enclosure.

But what about ported?
Ported designs are very popular for a simple reason: They play lower than sealed designs. Generally around 40 Hz, they start to have a greater output than sealed, and depending on tuning this goes down much lower. This makes them ideal for movies, which get really low, and also enables cheap components to provide a satisfactory subwoofer experience. They are also generally going to be a little bit louder than sealed designs, with 1-4 dB of "boost" in the 20 to 40 range. The drawback of course is that ported subs are generally bigger than the sealed counterparts, and the port has to be very specifically designed for it to sound good.

Music?
Most music isn't as "low" as movies. The lowest note on a 4-string bass is 41 Hz (although many bands downtune a little) Most musical content doesn't get below 30 Hz, except for some rap music, electronic music, and pipe organ music. This means that most good sealed designs will cover the entire spectrum of music well.

And also:
Room gain. Most subwoofers will be inside a room, and you will get a boost in frequency response that increases as the frequency decreases. I've seen some good graphs on this. It will help boost your response in the 30s and especially the 20s.

So why the 12" then?
12" generally plays loud enough and low enough for most rooms and most music, but maintains a fairly small enclosure size, is fairly cost-effective, but has less moving mass than a larger driver (generally better response). 10" and 15" drivers can also be very good. What's best for you depends on your budget, your expectations, and the size of sub you can tolerate. 8" drivers are not BAD per se, but they are generally only used when space is a major concern.

Whole books have been written on this subject, and there are a lot of generalizations here, but they are more often than not true.

Attached is a computer simulation of a 12" Dayton Reference HF sub driver in a sealed and ported BB4 alignments. You can see the additional output of the ported design, you can also see the box is about 50% larger. Notice the flat frequence response before roll-off on the sealed sub.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg sub_response.jpg (15.7 KB, 19 views)

Last edited by djkest; 12-05-2011 at 06:52 PM.
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Old 12-14-2011, 01:05 AM   #22
Portioli Portioli is offline
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big dady i have to thank you for this thread

great work!

P.s.
[Show spoiler]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Portioli View Post
hello BigDaddy

are you going to release a subwoofers buyers guide soon?

i.e. maybe listing subwoofers by *price* tier
or which technical characteristics are important
when reading subwoofer reviews?


https://forum.blu-ray.com/5340986-post7.html




Last edited by Portioli; 12-14-2011 at 01:16 AM.
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Old 12-14-2011, 04:55 AM   #23
theJman theJman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Daddy View Post
Originally, a few subwoofers under $300 were not included in that list. I added them to this thread so that JMan becomes informed and includes them in his thread. He has done that now and that is the reason I deleted them. The only one still there is the company from Australia.
I had actually stumbled upon that company a while back, but never added them because it appeared as though they were only available in Australia (and my original list was for NA). Does this forum have much of an international following, specifically people from 'down unda'? If so I can certainly add them to my list.
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Old 12-14-2011, 05:57 AM   #24
JimShaw JimShaw is offline
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This was a lot of time consuming work.

BigD

When do you sleep?

It is going to take me quite awhile looking over all the links.

A big thanks for your major effort
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Old 12-14-2011, 07:28 AM   #25
Big Daddy Big Daddy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimShaw View Post
This was a lot of time consuming work.

BigD

When do you sleep?

It is going to take me quite awhile looking over all the links.

A big thanks for your major effort
Thank you. It was a lot of work. I am a vampire and don't need to sleep at nights.
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Old 12-27-2011, 04:56 PM   #26
jschweda19 jschweda19 is offline
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This is an awesome list. Thanks. I am looking at upgrading my sub and this is definitely a good place to start. I am curious though. I am looking for a sub strictly for movies. Do any of these subs get a higher recommendation in this case or do these all handle movies fine?

I am looking in the under $500 group.
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Old 12-27-2011, 07:24 PM   #27
Almadacr Almadacr is offline
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BTW the CraigSUB SS-18.1 it's being sold at $545 shipped in the US

SS-18.1
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Old 12-27-2011, 11:13 PM   #28
Big Daddy Big Daddy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Almadacr View Post
BTW the CraigSUB SS-18.1 it's being sold at $545 shipped in the US

SS-18.1
They are good subwoofers, but they are passive and you still need to buy an amplifier. That subwoofer is a good option if you already have an extra amplifier or you are not using some of the channels of a multi-channel amplifier.
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Old 12-28-2011, 12:22 AM   #29
Almadacr Almadacr is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Daddy View Post
They are good subwoofers, but they are passive and you still need to buy an amplifier. That subwoofer is a good option if you already have an extra amplifier or you are not using some of the channels of a multi-channel amplifier.
I was thinking more the second option , because there price on the Dayton it's a bit of a stretch i think that there are cheaper options out there .
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Old 10-16-2012, 01:01 AM   #30
Valdis Valdis is offline
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Not trying to pick you apart, you did a very good job.

I noticed that there were no SVS subs listed in the $500-$700 range. There is 1.

http://www.svsound.com/subwoofers/sealed-box/sb12-nsd
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Old 11-02-2012, 07:33 AM   #31
JOMV JOMV is offline
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I think I'll bring this thread back from the dead as it has been VERY useful. Of course, thanks to BD....... again!!!... I'm still looking for a second subwoofer, but it has to be kind of slim because I need to put it between the couch and the back wall. Any ideas/suggestions????
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Old 11-02-2012, 12:59 PM   #32
Big Daddy Big Daddy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JOMV View Post
I think I'll bring this thread back from the dead as it has been VERY useful. Of course, thanks to BD....... again!!!... I'm still looking for a second subwoofer, but it has to be kind of slim because I need to put it between the couch and the back wall. Any ideas/suggestions????
TBI makes many narrow subwoofers that fit in tight spaces.
http://www.tbisound.com/index.asp

Velodyne and Pinnacle also makes small subwoofers.
http://velodyne.com/subwoofers.html?p=2
http://www.pinnaclespeakers.com/subwoofers.html
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Old 11-03-2012, 06:11 PM   #33
JOMV JOMV is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Daddy View Post
TBI makes many narrow subwoofers that fit in tight spaces.
http://www.tbisound.com/index.asp

Velodyne and Pinnacle also makes small subwoofers.
http://velodyne.com/subwoofers.html?p=2
http://www.pinnaclespeakers.com/subwoofers.html

Thanks a lot, BD!!!. I'll check them when I get home.
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Old 11-03-2012, 06:45 PM   #34
JOMV JOMV is offline
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I liked the TBI's but they are in the 1K range. So, according to my budget, I liked this one: http://velodyne.com/subwoofers/wicon...-wireless.html

Amplifier: 200 Watts Dynamic, 125 Watts RMS Power
Auto On/Off: Yes
Cabinet Design: Bass-reflex with built-in power amplifier
Color: Black Ash Vinyl
Dimensions: (H/W/D):16” x 12” x 15.5” (40 cm x 30 cm x 39.5 cm) (includes feet)
HiPass Crossover: N/A
LoPass Crossover: 50 Hz - 200 Hz
Phase Control: 0, 180 Degrees
Removable Grill: Yes
Shipping Weight: 35 lbs. (16 Kg)
Voice Coil: 1.6" copper wound
Warranty (N. Am.): Two years (electronics & drivers - parts & labor)

It can be used both ways (wifi & regular cable). I'm starting a search for reviews. I was auditioning some Klipsch subs at Best Buy - (SW-350 & SW-450). I considered the 450 to be kind of slow (almost half to a full second delayed). The bass output was a little delayed in respect to the song they were playing. To my surprise, the 350 seemed to be faster and precise. Any thoughts for better options?

Last edited by JOMV; 11-03-2012 at 06:53 PM.
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Old 11-03-2012, 09:05 PM   #35
Mr.Twinks Mr.Twinks is offline
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What about this subwoofer from Klipsch?http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...lipsch%20rw12d

Also these things go on sale all the time at new egg so wait for the price drop ($300)!
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Old 11-03-2012, 10:55 PM   #36
JOMV JOMV is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.Twinks View Post
What about this subwoofer from Klipsch?http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...lipsch%20rw12d

Also these things go on sale all the time at new egg so wait for the price drop ($300)!

Wow, now, THAT ONE I LIKE!!!... The size is just about right for my available space. And to think about the possibility of a $300 offer makes it even better. Any ideas of when could that happen??? Thanks a lot for the info. I'll keep it among the top ones on my list.
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Old 11-04-2012, 01:29 AM   #37
Big Daddy Big Daddy is offline
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JOMV,

Yamaha makes many narrow subwoofers that are within your budget.

http://www.amazon.com/Yamaha-NS-SW31...aha+subwoofers

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B002JCSG4Y?...SIN=B002JCSG4Y

http://www.amazon.com/Yamaha-YST-FSW...aha+subwoofers

http://www.amazon.com/Yamaha-YST-FSW...aha+subwoofers
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Old 11-04-2012, 06:49 AM   #38
JOMV JOMV is offline
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Thanks a lot for taking the time. I just want to get the best possible sub at the $300-$400 range. Which one is the best you can suggest based on your experience?. I mostly use this system for movies (around 85% of the time).
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Old 11-04-2012, 09:31 AM   #39
Big Daddy Big Daddy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JOMV View Post
Thanks a lot for taking the time. I just want to get the best possible sub at the $300-$400 range. Which one is the best you can suggest based on your experience?. I mostly use this system for movies (around 85% of the time).
If the size will be ok, buy the 12" Lava subwoofer. You can't get a better sub at that price.

http://www.lavasubs.com/
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Old 11-04-2012, 11:36 PM   #40
Mr.Twinks Mr.Twinks is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JOMV View Post
Wow, now, THAT ONE I LIKE!!!... The size is just about right for my available space. And to think about the possibility of a $300 offer makes it even better. Any ideas of when could that happen??? Thanks a lot for the info. I'll keep it among the top ones on my list.
It is a very nice subwoofer especially when they are $300 bucks! They go on sale all the time. I think the last time they were on sale was 3 weeks ago. I will update this thread when they are on sale.

I also want to demo those Lava subs to see how they perform, or some of Big Daddy's modified HSU/Diy subs! One day I will build a sub just to see how they perform.
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