Dolby Atmos coming soon for home use

[kenoh]

Originally Posted by BozQ

It's a *sound* bed, not a test bed. Sheesh.

The 7.1 or 9.1 sound bed is just the foundation of the soundtrack. After this sound bed is done, the engineers have up to 128 objects to play around with the 3D plane with the Dolby Atmos system.

When it's all done, it's delivered to all Atmos equipped cinemas and homes in whichever configuration it's being equipped with.

I know that! No need to get so fussy...

I meant the fact that it's something they can test the market with because you mentioned either them using 7.1 or 9.1, not to be taken literality?

[BozQ]

Originally Posted by kenoh

I know that! No need to get so fussy...

I meant the fact that it's something they can test the market with because you mentioned either them using 7.1 or 9.1, not to be taken literality?

There's nothing to test. Dolby caught Barco and Datasat with their pants down. Just compare the number of feature films embracing the Dolby Atmos format vs. Barco Auro 11.1 and you'll see what I mean.

Where Barco and Datasat are thinking in small steps, Dolby just went three generations ahead of them and now they're struggling to get DTS-UHD/MDA out of the door.

Atmos is a very ambitious venture for Dolby, sure. But at least they dared to invest in it and they're already successful by now. As long as Dolby continues to push studios to release Blu-ray in Dolby Atmos, they're many steps ahead of its competition already.

Barco had their chance when they attempted to bring Auro 9.1 into Blu-ray. But I just don't see any efforts in pushing the format. It's pointless to have a system and hardware but no software content for consumers to embrace the format.

And I also appreciate that Dolby and its partners actually considered how home theater owners can configure their height channels. The add-on speaker modules speaks for itself. That Dolby is dead serious and committed to bringing a fantastic new format to home theater owners in the easiest way possible.

I won't be able to afford an Atmos HTS anytime soon. But I'm sure as hell will pick up my favourite Blu-rays with Atmos soundtracks. Hopefully, some time in the future, I can afford to set up a 7.3.4 configuration.

[kenoh]

Originally Posted by BozQ

There's nothing to test. Dolby caught Barco and Datasat with their pants down. Just compare the number of feature films embracing the Dolby Atmos format vs. Barco Auro 11.1 and you'll see what I mean.

Where Barco and Datasat are thinking in small steps, Dolby just went three generations ahead of them and now they're struggling to get DTS-UHD/MDA out of the door.

Atmos is a very ambitious venture for Dolby, sure. But at least they dared to invest in it and they're already successful by now. As long as Dolby continues to push studios to release Blu-ray in Dolby Atmos, they're many steps ahead of its competition already.

Barco had their chance when they attempted to bring Auro 9.1 into Blu-ray. But I just don't see any efforts in pushing the format. It's pointless to have a system and hardware but no software content for consumers to embrace the format.

And I also appreciate that Dolby and its partners actually considered how home theater owners can configure their height channels. The add-on speaker modules speaks for itself. That Dolby is dead serious and committed to bringing a fantastic new format to home theater owners in the easiest way possible.

I won't be able to afford an Atmos HTS anytime soon. But I'm sure as hell will pick up my favourite Blu-rays with Atmos soundtracks. Hopefully, some time in the future, I can afford to set up a 7.3.4 configuration.

Well, one thing I love is when a company has commitment in there product, so they already won me with that! Especially one as ambiguitus as this!

[perfectmyth]

Originally Posted by Kirk Out

yeah i read that onkyo would roll out new receivers with atmos but also dropping auddessy for there own calibration . personally i think its just another feature tacked on for sales , id rather see efforts made in room calibration and stick with dtshd and dolby true .

Makes mucho sense to me. Unfortunately it seems that the trend is for new tech to proliferate without maximizing the potential of the current.

[FilmFreakosaurus]

Originally Posted by BozQ

It's a *sound* bed, not a test bed. Sheesh.

The 7.1 or 9.1 sound bed is just the foundation of the soundtrack. After this sound bed is done, the engineers have up to 128 objects to play around with the 3D plane with the Dolby Atmos system.

When it's all done, it's delivered to all Atmos equipped cinemas and homes in whichever configuration it's being equipped with.

If we're getting picky ... It's 118 objects if they use a 9.1 channel bed. Object banks are considered like channels and vice versa in the Atmos DAW software.

However, there will not be that many for home Atmos due to bandwidth and space restrictions on Blu-ray. Though, no commercial Atmos movie has used all 128 slots yet.

[BozQ]

Originally Posted by FilmFreakosaurus

If we're getting picky ... It's 118 objects if they use a 9.1 channel bed. Object banks are considered like channels and vice versa in the Atmos DAW software.

However, there will not be that many for home Atmos due to bandwidth and space restrictions on Blu-ray. Though, no commercial Atmos movie has used all 128 slots yet.

Thank you for your correction. You are right about the bed utilizing the object tracks. (that reminds me, I need to read up the documents again soon)

But is it confirmed that Home Atmos will not have 128 tracks? Although it's highly unlikely any movie has used all 128 tracks simultaneously so far, I doubt it's being nerfed for the home version. It's like releasing a PC game with lower resolution graphics.

And if it's incompatible, the sound engineers would have to readjust or remove objects for the home version. Which is a tedious process.

I'm not saying you're wrong. I just don't think it's practical and unlikely in this high bandwidth digital age. We'll have to wait for more information is released by Dolby.

[ZoetMB]

Originally Posted by BozQ

But is it confirmed that Home Atmos will not have 128 tracks? Although it's highly unlikely any movie has used all 128 tracks simultaneously so far, I doubt it's being nerfed for the home version. It's like releasing a PC game with lower resolution graphics.

And if it's incompatible, the sound engineers would have to readjust or remove objects for the home version. Which is a tedious process.

I don't know how many objects the home version can carry. I suspect it's the same as theatrical, which is 128 concurrent channels in the mix and 64 concurrent channels in the theatre.

But that's a different question than how many output channels Atmos has. And Dolby has announced that for the home version, Atmos can have up to 24 "floor" channels and 10 overhead channels for a total of 34. I don't know whether that includes the subwoofer channel or not. They've announced that they're working with a component manufacturer who is building a 32 channel unit.

That should be more than enough. I counted 36 speakers at the Dolby Screening Room in NY (which is a small room by theatrical standards but a very large room by home theatre standards), which is almost the same configuration - there was a 9.1 channel ceiling array, leaving about 24 "floor" channels.

On a related topic, there was some back and forth (either here or on another forum) about the use of five screen channels. In the theatrical version of Atmos, Dolby does recommend the use of the two extra screen channels for screens larger than 40 feet, but it's not clear from my notes whether those are supposed to be full-range channels or low-frequency effects channels (like they were in the Dolby 70mm Baby Boom format).

[BozQ]

Originally Posted by ZoetMB

I don't know how many objects the home version can carry. I suspect it's the same as theatrical, which is 128 concurrent channels in the mix and 64 concurrent channels in the theatre.

But that's a different question than how many output channels Atmos has. And Dolby has announced that for the home version, Atmos can have up to 24 "floor" channels and 10 overhead channels for a total of 34. I don't know whether that includes the subwoofer channel or not. They've announced that they're working with a component manufacturer who is building a 32 channel unit.

That should be more than enough. I counted 36 speakers at the Dolby Screening Room in NY (which is a small room by theatrical standards but a very large room by home theatre standards), which is almost the same configuration - there was a 9.1 channel ceiling array, leaving about 24 "floor" channels.

On a related topic, there was some back and forth (either here or on another forum) about the use of five screen channels. In the theatrical version of Atmos, Dolby does recommend the use of the two extra screen channels for screens larger than 40 feet, but it's not clear from my notes whether those are supposed to be full-range channels or low-frequency effects channels (like they were in the Dolby 70mm Baby Boom format).

Like I was saying earlier, it doesn't make sense for Dolby to nerf the number of objects for the home version. It's not even a simple matter of downmixing say 7.1 to 5.1
Although I don't think there's been a movie that uses all 128 object tracks, it would be a tedious process to redo or reduce the number of objects to fit into the home format. And it's almost like taking a scope movie and cropping it to pan & scan, the original vision is lost. But Dolby has always been able to deliver the same experience for cinemas and for home, without fail.

Dolby Digital Surround EX was successfully brought over to DVD with Dolby Digital EX without revising the DVD specs. Similarly with Dolby Surround 7.1 and TrueHD 7.1

I'm pretty confident we'll still get the same 128 tracks.

Number of speakers on the other hand, I believe we don't need more than 30 speakers for home. Dolby uses a 26.3 configuration on such a large hall, why do we need more for homes?

Also, Dolby also said Atmos is a very flexible format. You can have any combination of standard and height speakers. As long as you configure on your receiver where each speaker is positioned and it will process each object accordingly.

What I do hope to see is the support for the three LFE channels. 7.3.4 would probably be the sweet spot for me.

[FilmFreakosaurus]

According to Roger Dressler (formally of Dolby Labs) it is highly unlikely consumer Atmos can handle 128 objects (9.1 channel bed + 118 objects... or 7.1 channel bed + 120 objects). FilmMixer on AVS Forum was talking about using around 14 objects in a theatrical project he's currently working on, so that's a far cry from the maximum Atmos can handle commercially. He was mentioning that Dolby wanted to future proof the commercial format knowing full well all 128 audio slots would not be used for some time.

That has everything to do with the amount of data real estate a Blu-ray disc can handle. Remember, Dolby decided to put home Atmos on regular Blu-ray NOW rather than wait for UHD media that might have more space available (probably at the urging of the struggling consumer electronics companies). There's finite space and a fixed audio bitrate here... especially if they add these tracks to 3D video discs as well.

[Blu-Dog]

Originally Posted by BozQ

Number of speakers on the other hand, I believe we don't need more than 30 speakers for home.

Do you know how crazy this sounds?

[BozQ]

Originally Posted by FilmFreakosaurus

According to Roger Dressler (formally of Dolby Labs) it is highly unlikely consumer Atmos can handle 128 objects (9.1 channel bed + 118 objects... or 7.1 channel bed + 120 objects). FilmMixer on AVS Forum was talking about using around 14 objects in a theatrical project he's currently working on, so that's a far cry from the maximum Atmos can handle commercially. He was mentioning that Dolby wanted to future proof the commercial format knowing full well all 128 audio slots would not be used for some time.

That has everything to do with the amount of data real estate a Blu-ray disc can handle. Remember, Dolby decided to put home Atmos on regular Blu-ray NOW rather than wait for UHD media that might have more space available (probably at the urging of the struggling consumer electronics companies). There's finite space and a fixed audio bitrate here... especially if they add these tracks to 3D video discs as well.

Point noted. Perhaps it's nothing to worry about at the moment. We'll wait for more information from Dolby themselves.
Or perhaps Dolby and all sound engineers know of the limitations of the home format and will work around the home version instead of the cinema version.
I mean, if we have a movie like Transformers: Age of Extinction with so much going on and it still doesn't use all 128 objects, then I guess there's nothing to worry.

[BozQ]

Originally Posted by Blu-Dog

Do you know how crazy this sounds?

Please elaborate.

[PeterTHX]

Originally Posted by ZoetMB

On a related topic, there was some back and forth (either here or on another forum) about the use of five screen channels. In the theatrical version of Atmos, Dolby does recommend the use of the two extra screen channels for screens larger than 40 feet, but it's not clear from my notes whether those are supposed to be full-range channels or low-frequency effects channels (like they were in the Dolby 70mm Baby Boom format).

Atmos can have any speaker output as full range. In this case the extra fronts help when dialog is an object. Characters speaking from their specific location on screen. I could have sworn I read that this was done on Star Trek Into Darkness somewhere where the sound mixers were discussing making the Atmos mix.

[FilmFreakosaurus]

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

Atmos can have any speaker output as full range. In this case the extra fronts help when dialog is an object. Characters speaking from their specific location on screen. I could have sworn I read that this was done on Star Trek Into Darkness somewhere where the sound mixers were discussing making the Atmos mix.

You're not wrong. They steered the dialog stems throughout the room just like in Gravity.

The extra left, extra right screen speakers are recommended for larger theater screens to help expand dialog and SFX object placement.

[Blu-Dog]

Originally Posted by BozQ

Please elaborate.

30 speakers for the home. Whether or not it's including 7.1, that doesn't sound reasonable, no pun intended.


Issues of:

• Amplification
• Decoding
• Wiring 30 speakers

It just doesn't make sense in a home environment. Mixing rooms rarely have that many speakers, and they hire professionals to tinker with it.

[FilmFreakosaurus]

Originally Posted by Blu-Dog

30 speakers for the home. Whether or not it's including 7.1, that doesn't sound reasonable, no pun intended.


Issues of:

• Amplification
• Decoding
• Wiring 30 speakers

It just doesn't make sense in a home environment. Mixing rooms rarely have that many speakers, and they hire professionals to tinker with it.

But no one is forcing you to get 30+ speakers (with 30+ individual "channels" of audio) and subs and an ultra expensive Atmos processor like the Trinnov.

If you have 7.1 already, you just need a minimum of four more for the ceiling positions as well as a new processor. If you have 7.1 and like it... you'll positively drool over Atmos. If you absolutely don't have the room for back surrounds, you can still just add the four ceiling surrounds to start recreating the 3D immersion of the commercial Atmos experience.

And you don't even have to buy another Blu-ray player. Just make sure it is set to Bitstream and Secondary Audio is turned OFF and have a Blu-ray disc with an Atmos track.

[kenoh]

Originally Posted by FilmFreakosaurus

But no one is forcing you to get 30+ speakers (with 30+ individual "channels" of audio) and subs and an ultra expensive Atmos processor like the Trinnov.

If you have 7.1 already, you just need a minimum of four more for the ceiling positions as well as a new processor. If you have 7.1 and like it... you'll positively drool over Atmos. If you absolutely don't have the room for back surrounds, you can still just add the four ceiling surrounds to start recreating the 3D immersion of the commercial Atmos experience.

And you don't even have to buy another Blu-ray player. Just make sure it is set to Bitstream and Secondary Audio is turned OFF and a Blu-ray disc with an Atmos track.

Exactly!

I myself can't afford most of this stuff but I'm not going to ***** about it! All I want is to have four front surrounds in a wide and height setup so I can have a more immersive front stage, everything else will be an added benefit.

I just hope I don't have to get something like the Trinnov to do it but if they offer options like 11.2/13.2/16.2/22.2/32.2 for those that only want certain features/channels then I'd be a happy camper! If you want the whole package with 32.2 channels, then I say more power to you!

[BozQ]

Unless you have a home theater room larger than Dolby Theater, you will not need more than Dolby's recommendation of 7.1.4

If you already have a 7.1 system and you have a qualifying receiver that can be upgraded to Atmos, then all you really need is get at least two height speakers, either in-ceiling or one of the other add on modules and you're more than ready to enjoy Dolby Atmos.

I'm looking forward to the next conference where Dolby can shed more information about this.

[FilmFreakosaurus]

Originally Posted by BozQ

Unless you have a home theater room larger than Dolby Theater, you will not need more than Dolby's recommendation of 7.1.4

If you already have a 7.1 system and you have a qualifying receiver that can be upgraded to Atmos, then all you really need is get at least two height speakers, either in-ceiling or one of the other add on modules and you're more than ready to enjoy Dolby Atmos.

I'm looking forward to the next conference where Dolby can shed more information about this.

If you have a normal sized living room theater... you'll have no need for more than 7.1.4.

If you have the space and the budget... wire for more than the bare minimum.

[Blu-Dog]

Originally Posted by FilmFreakosaurus

But no one is forcing you to get 30+ speakers (with 30+ individual "channels" of audio) and subs and an ultra expensive Atmos processor like the Trinnov.

I've never been impressed with the "no one is forcing you" argument. It implies a level of elitism of the "let them eat cake" stripe.


If any technology is supposed to be for the consumer market - layered onto every disc sold, for example, and obviously paid for by all consumers as part of the purchase - it should be accessible without undue technological compromise, or appearance, or cost. Someone would definitely be forcing me to pay for 30 speaker signals to be encoded.

Originally Posted by FilmFreakosaurus

If you have 7.1 already, you just need a minimum of four more for the ceiling positions as well as a new processor. If you have 7.1 and like it... you'll positively drool over Atmos. If you absolutely don't have the room for back surrounds, you can still just add the four ceiling surrounds to start recreating the 3D immersion of the commercial Atmos experience.

I have already considered this, and thought through the methods for tacking on this "drool-worthy" sound schema. It obviously will be through modular expansion of existing equipment. The idea that everyone will run out and buy new receivers makes no sense, and can only be "bleeding edge" bait.


Whether it is actually worth it is a subjective idea. Adding thirty new speakers to a home environment is ludicrous, no matter how subjective.


Elitism has little charm. All this dick-stretching comparison about "who has the most comprehensive, impressive, complete audio dream" is going to be funded by the hoi-polloi who only have soundbar equipment; I'm not fooled, and nor will be the average consumer. Such folly sandbagged 3-D (line up, folks, buy the 3-D version of the film) and I'd expect to see the Dolby Atmos version of a film on a special disk, too, if it's all that desirable. We'll see.

Originally Posted by FilmFreakosaurus

And you don't even have to buy another Blu-ray player. Just make sure it is set to Bitstream and Secondary Audio is turned OFF and have a Blu-ray disc with an Atmos track.

I've heard that line before, from the 3-D people. Haven't you? It was part of the "you only have to buy one disc, your objections are meaningless" crowd, circa 2010-2011.


I'd rather wait and see what kind of encode comes with another phantom, the UHD/4K Blu standard. The average consumer is not going to add another 4, or 8, or 30 speakers to 5.1 or 7.1 array. I have two such arrays now, and two 2.1 setups, all for areas used both as social and viewing/listening areas. This is not a "new standard", it's a gimmick to sell audio gear, just as 3-D was a gimmick to reboot television sales. I don't expect it to be anywhere as well received as 3-D.


This is not to criticize the standard, far from it. It might be really nice, but it is a technological Rube Goldberg mess. As I've already mentioned, crossing vaulted ceilings, certain room furnishings, and other things found in the normal consumer setting, is a mess already. Considering this is the type of home where upscale buyers - able to purchase this gear - are actually going to have to place it, it makes less than no sense. I think the ability to multiplex these audio tracks has exceeded the delivery technology by quite a bit, and this thing is nowhere near ready for prime time home consumer delivery.


Having a ceiling on a nice home festooned with some cluster of speakers is not going to be a popular home decoration staple. When looking for audio gear for my own home, I wound up paying a premium price for Sonus Faber, Definitive Technology Mythos, and other gear, primarily for good looks - many speakers sound great, but look terrible - and the same will face "Atmos" speaker arrays on generally unfurnished ceilings.


What, 30 speaker cans trying to hide "concealed" speakers in a ceiling? Wiring this mess sounds reasonable? And "adequate"?


If you're convinced every home should have a dedicated theater, go ahead and say so.