Pressed(stamped) optical discs and M-Discs recordable discs can last over 1,000 years

[ZIROK]

Originally Posted by msb1428

Another HUGE question I have...Is... How the hell do we know that Blu Ray disc's can last 100 or 1000 years... AGAIN they are made of plastic #1 and 2 "Discs" have only been around since the 70's...... where are we getting this "educated" information from....and HOW do they know??? are they 500 years old????

Easy ,there is a process out there there just about all manufactures use called "Accelerated Life Testing". you can age a product 10 years (or whatever)in a few weeks using
different calibrated stressors. extreme heat/cold/vibration/UV cycles etc. for instance Ford can run a dashboard through the process and determine when the plastic will fail and adjust the formula to make it better or worse.

[BijouMan]

Originally Posted by HDTV1080P

It all depends on the quality of the manufacturing process of the stamped disc. If they are manufactured correctly even a 100GB triple layer 4K Blu-ray can last over a 1,000 years if stored correctly. Rewritable discs (rewriteable up to around 1,000 to 10,000 times) can last up to a 100 years for some brands. However, I believe that no one makes a M-Disc as re-writeable yet, and one has to buy write once Blu-ray and DVD discs to get the 1,000+ year self life. There are many 1978 Laserdisc optical discs that were manufactured correctly with no impurities in the water that work perfectly fine for the analog video and analog audio after 43 year. Laserdiscs were all stamped (pressed) in a multi-million-dollar optical disc factory. Laserdisc was an analog medium for video and later digital for audio, but if there are any quality problems with the Laserdisc it would show up right away as laser rot sparkles on the screen. Over the years with over 1,000+ Laserdiscs over the years I have only seen a few that had Laser rot problems due to bad manufacturing process.

There is no guarantees in life, consumers can purchase optical stamped discs and hope that they last over a 1,000 years to pass on to future generations (some well, while others might not). When it comes to homemade videos of family members one can use M-Disc technology with up to 100GB discs that are rated to last over a 1,000 years when stored correctly.

There were several branches of the military that tested the M-Disc technology using age testing methods, and they rated the M-Disc optical disc technology to have a minimum lifespan of 1,000 years.

Quote

“M-DISC is an archival-quality storage solution that preserves photos, videos, music, and documents for 1,000 years or more.
Unlike hard drives, flash drives, and other writable media, that can lose data, M-DISC has been designed to protect your information from degradation and loss for centuries.”

https://www.mdisc.com/index.html

The M-DISC was designed from the ground up for data archival. There is no need for a rewritable version and it wouldn’t even be possible given that M-DISCs use a stone-like material which, when burned, actually engraves pits so that they are like what you will find on a pressed disc.

[HDTV1080P]

I came across my very first Blu-ray disc that went bad because of stamping issue that showed up 15 years later. Its the first Blu-ray disc that has went bad on me. The disc was made in 2006. Other 2006 Blu-rays work fine, they messed up the stamping process for one of the first 50GB discs and the problem did not show up until 15 years later.

The following link has more details.

https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.p...1&postcount=17

[lgans316]

Originally Posted by HDTV1080P

I came across my very first Blu-ray disc that went bad because of stamping issue that showed up 15 years later. Its the first Blu-ray disc that has went bad on me. The disc was made in 2006. Other 2006 Blu-rays work fine, they messed up the stamping process for one of the first 50GB discs and the problem did not show up until 15 years later.

The following link has more details.

https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.p...1&postcount=17

Which is why I backup the discs immediately into 2 external hard drives as it's like a ticking bomb. About a dozen BDs have gone bad for me. Thankfully for about 10 of them I did have 1:1 backups. What's strange is these discs won't even load in fully unlocked BD drives.

[Bugg]

I can't speak for anyone else but my experience over the years with pressed disc media, is that if it doesn't go bad within the first few years, it never goes bad. I have never had a CD, laserdisc, dvd, or BluRay that was fine after 3 years, then went bad 5, 10,15, 20 years later.

[PenguinInfinity]

Originally Posted by lgans316

Which is why I backup the discs immediately into 2 external hard drives as it's like a ticking bomb. About a dozen BDs have gone bad for me. Thankfully for about 10 of them I did have 1:1 backups. What's strange is these discs won't even load in fully unlocked BD drives.

A very small percentage of discs will go bad and most discs are very cheap to replace if they do go bad. You'll end up spending way more money on backing up your collection than you would on replacing bad discs.

[HDTV1080P]

I have Laserdiscs that were stamped around the years 1978 to 1982 that still work perfectly fine. Also audio CD’s from 1983 working fine. DVD’s from 1997 still working fine. And Blu-ray discs from 2006 that still work fine (plus Blu-ray 3D discs from 2010 still working fine, but those use the same 25GB and 50GB Blu-ray discs). Also I have 4K Ultra HD Blu-ray discs from 2016 that still work fine.

Stamped discs if stamped correctly without impurities in the water can last over 1,000 years. But that being said I have ran into a very small amount of Laserdiscs, and DVD's that have went bad since they had stamping issues that effected their longevity. I ran into my first 50GB dual layer stamped Blu-ray disc from the year 2006 that no longer works. I decided to post what I found which is what appears to be some type of Laser rot by an incorrect stamping process. The funny thing is the replacement Blu-ray disc I purchased even though the jacket says 2006, the actual discs are a different color and they were stamped in 2007 instead of 2006. The stamped 2007 Blu-ray discs are working perfectly fine and load when I placed it in my computer BD-ROM drive. In a few weeks when I find time to watch TV I well watch the entire Blu-ray disc from 2007. I always post on Blu-ray.com when I have playback problems, very little posts for the QTY of discs I have rented or purchased over the years.

If one has a favorite movie or computer data that they want to store away in a time capsule or just anywhere in their house. To be safe one should use a minimum of 2 stamped discs or 2 M-Discs just in the very rare chance one goes bad before reaching the 1,000+ year lifespan. So if one was storing away copies of Star Wars or Star Trek in a time capsule they might want to store two copies in the time capsule. But many 4K Blu-ray discs are already dual format i(sometimes triple format) including two to three copies of the same movie on multiply optical discs in combo packs like 4K Blu-ray, standard Blu-ray, and DVD.

[lgans316]

Originally Posted by PenguinInfinity

A very small percentage of discs will go bad and most discs are very cheap to replace if they do go bad. You'll end up spending way more money on backing up your collection than you would on replacing bad discs.

Untrue. Some of the discs I am talking about are not Hollywood films. They are OOP and nowhere to be found.

I got about 8 14TB hard drives. Cost me about £16 per TB which can hold 18-22 4K rips or 40 BD rips. Do the math and you will see its a drop in the ocean in the grand scheme of things.

[HDTV1080P]

Hard drives only last around 5-10 years maximum. Many top of the line models go bad after 5 years. Also very few studios if any use the managed copy feature that allows one to legally copy a Blu-ray disc to a hard drive server.

I would rather use optical stamped discs and M-Discs that last over 1,000 years then a hard drive, solid state drive, or USB stick that goes bad in 5 to 10 years. Optical discs are also EMI, RFI, and EMP proof.

[lgans316]

Originally Posted by HDTV1080P

Hard drives only last around 5-10 years maximum. Many top of the line models go bad after 5 years. Also very few studios if any use the managed copy feature that allows one to legally copy a Blu-ray disc to a hard drive server.

I would rather use optical stamped discs and M-Discs that last over 1,000 years then a hard drive, solid state drive, or USB stick that goes bad in 5 to 10 years. Optical discs are also EMI, RFI, and EMP proof.

This is true but nothing lasts forever. All my movies are backed up into 2 drives.
Make sure you have spare 4K players as well as the lens won't last long and could simply give up one day. We can all keep worrying like this but I will keep buying and filling it up as long as I can as I consider it as part and parcel of the collecting game.

Remember there is also convenience factor coming into play as you can browse and watch what you like instead of flipping the discs every time. You do realise there are so many out there streaming full fat rips from their NAS drives.

Check out the costs of BD-R XL 100 GB. Pack of 5 discs costs £38 which is way too expensive.

When my time is up I will give up.

[PenguinInfinity]

Originally Posted by lgans316

Untrue. Some of the discs I am talking about are not Hollywood films. They are OOP and nowhere to be found.

I got about 8 14TB hard drives. Cost me about £16 per TB which can hold 18-22 4K rips or 40 BD rips. Do the math and you will see its a drop in the ocean in the grand scheme of things.

I understand backing up the expensive discs, but why backup everything?

The cost of your hard drives is therefore £1,792. At an average of £10 per disc (which is probably high), 180 discs would have to fail for the backups to be cheaper. Additionally hard drives don't last a long time so they will probably have to be replaced every 10 years. That would mean that 180 discs would have to fail every 10 years for the back-ups to be cheaper.

You clearly didn't do the math.

[lgans316]

Originally Posted by PenguinInfinity

I understand backing up the expensive discs, but why backup everything?

The cost of your hard drives is therefore £1,792. At an average of £10 per disc (which is probably high), 180 discs would have to fail for the backups to be cheaper. Additionally hard drives don't last a long time so they will probably have to be replaced every 10 years. That would mean that 180 discs would have to fail every 10 years for the back-ups to be cheaper.

You clearly didn't do the math.

The answer is because I can backup everything. I will do it as long as I can afford it.

Nowadays I don't watch the discs. I watch the 1:1 rip as it is easier to browse through the films and pick one instead of spinning the discs. The media player has so many features that are not available on disc players. Mine can output both HDR10+ and Dolby Vision.

Average of £10 per disc is only when you get the discs via deals/promos. Otherwise the cost of 4K disc here in the UK is usually £19.99 or £24.99.

The backup is there for my own peace of mind, so in a sense, yeah I add few £ on top of the disc price for that which IMO is worth it for the sake of convenience and dealing with bad discs.

[PenguinInfinity]

Originally Posted by lgans316

Average of £10 per disc is only when you get the discs via deals/promos. Otherwise the cost of 4K disc here in the UK is usually £19.99 or £24.99.

Since we're talking replacement cost it doesn't matter how high the movies launch for; all that matters is the price the disc would be by the time your copy breaks (if ever). Most discs drop to under £10 within a few years (or less).

The backup is there for my own peace of mind, so in a sense, yeah I add few £ on top of the disc price for that which IMO is worth it for the sake of convenience and dealing with bad discs.

It's fine if you are paying extra for the sake of convenience. But don't fool yourself into thinking that your backups will save you money. Storing backups costs significantly more than re-buying bad discs.

[chriscreep23]

Originally Posted by HDTV1080P

Hard drives only last around 5-10 years maximum. Many top of the line models go bad after 5 years. Also very few studios if any use the managed copy feature that allows one to legally copy a Blu-ray disc to a hard drive server.

I would rather use optical stamped discs and M-Discs that last over 1,000 years then a hard drive, solid state drive, or USB stick that goes bad in 5 to 10 years. Optical discs are also EMI, RFI, and EMP proof.

Some dvs of mine definitely are rotting!!! From the Mad Max Fury Road set the blu-ray is okay but the DVD is rotting. Same goes for the Total Recall 3D blu-ray/DVD set, The Host (2013) set etc. The discs came from different studios like Universal, Warner so there is no bad pressing at the factory excuse. Also some of them are from 2013 and 2016 so they are relatively new

[fundamental]

Originally Posted by HDTV1080P

In addition, 100% of all Laserdiscs and 100% of all 4K Ultra HD Blu-ray discs are professionally stamped because Laserdiscs and 4K Blu-ray discs do not have a blank recordable disc options in existence.

Well, there were recordable laserdiscs (compatible with normal laserdisc players); problem is to find out some today, along with a recorder!

UHD-BD could be burned on BD-50/BD-100/BD-128 - never seen BD-66 (yet?)

About laserdisc: the plastic used for it is PMMA (read: plexyglass) and not polycarbonate; the formes is hygroscopic and let water in more than the latter (can't remember how many times more, though); so if you (and I) have laserdiscs pressed more than 40 years ago still perfectly playable, is it possible (and probable) that any well stored M-Disc will last, if not a thousand year, at least some hundred.

Further info from my (lacking) memory: HTL BD (using inorganic dye) would last long - someone hinted as long as M-Disc - while LTH BD (using organic dye) would not; CD-R and DVD-R/+R use the latter

[HDTV1080P]

There is no recordable Laserdisc players or discs in existence, they are all stamped. Same is true for the 4K Blu-ray format. The blank 100GB and 128GB discs are for the BDXL computer data storage format and are different and not compatible with the 4K Blu-ray players. There is no such thing as blank recordable 66GB and 100GB 4K Blu-ray discs, unless the BDA modifies the specs and adds them to the format one day.

[fundamental]

Wrong!

ODC (Optical Disc Corporation) produced the Nimbus LVDR 610 - AFAIK the only RLV (Recordable Laser Vision) compatible recorder ever produced; it was extremely rare (IIRC only one or two were produced), huge and heave - 1000lbs maybe; RLV discs were extremely expensive, at $1000 each.

So, even if extremely rare, it doesn't mean they did not exist!
(side note: I have an HD-MAC laserdisc player, maybe the only one made?!? who knows!)

UHD-BD: they use regular BD discs, but only 66GB and 100GB - actually you can burn UHD video also on BD-25 and let the disc play in an hardware player; any UHD-BD player *should* play BD-25 and BD-50, while only few can play BD-100; the only thing is to not exceed with the bitrate (like 64mbps max with BD-50, less with BD-25) to let discs be more compatible.
https://www.dvdfab.cn/resource/4k-me...hd-iso-to-disc

[HDTV1080P]

Originally Posted by fundamental

Wrong!

ODC (Optical Disc Corporation) produced the Nimbus LVDR 610 - AFAIK the only RLV (Recordable Laser Vision) compatible recorder ever produced; it was extremely rare (IIRC only one or two were produced), huge and heave - 1000lbs maybe; RLV discs were extremely expensive, at $1000 each.

So, even if extremely rare, it doesn't mean they did not exist!
(side note: I have an HD-MAC laserdisc player, maybe the only one made?!? who knows!)

UHD-BD: they use regular BD discs, but only 66GB and 100GB - actually you can burn UHD video also on BD-25 and let the disc play in an hardware player; any UHD-BD player *should* play BD-25 and BD-50, while only few can play BD-100; the only thing is to not exceed with the bitrate (like 64mbps max with BD-50, less with BD-25) to let discs be more compatible.
https://www.dvdfab.cn/resource/4k-me...hd-iso-to-disc

Recordable Laserdisc players do not exist in the consumer market since they were never released. There are all kinds of prototype equipment made in QTY of 1 or 2 that never make it to market. One cannot purchase a blank recordable Laserdisc or player anywhere, therefore for all practical purposes they do not exist except for maybe like 1 or 2 protypes.

One cannot fit a 66GB or 100GB disc on a standard 25GB or 50GB Blu-ray disc unless they remove bonus features or reduce the video bit rate on the copy. All 66GB releases I have seen so far take up more then 50GB of space. So it’s a space issue trying to use 25GB and 50GB discs. So since 66GB and 100GB blank 4K Blu-ray discs do not exist it is impossible for someone to make an exact duplicate onto a optical disc unless the program is stamped.

4K Blu-ray also uses renewable security keys and is harder for people to make a backup copy when compared to Blu-ray and especially DVD which has weaker security (lot easier to make DVD copies since weaker encryption). Also consumers are not suppose to break the encryption off of a disc, there are legal issues when doing so.

[fundamental]

Agree that laserdisc recorder were mostly prototype, but there were some recorded laserdiscs around - surely more than 1 or 2; so it's not fair to say they do not exist - "practically inexistent" is a better sentence!

UHD-BD:
- if someone wants to create one using UHD source from a video camera, he can always use a BD-25/BD-50
- excluded BD-66 that are not in the market, if someone is allowed to copy a BD-66/BD-100 (because he has the rights, or his country allows to copy a legally owned pressed disc) it's possible to duplicate such 1:1 on a BD-100
- also, some BD-66 has the main feature smaller than 50GB, hence it's possible to burn them onto a BD-50: https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=277330

in few words: UHD-BD do not use a different physical format than BD.

[HDTV1080P]

Standard Blu-ray releases are always BD-25 or BD-50. 4K Blu-ray discs are always BD-66 or BD-100. That is always true for 100% studio purchased discs.