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Old 02-19-2019, 12:50 PM   #321
Auditor55 Auditor55 is offline
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Originally Posted by Masterarmeen View Post
Hey! Can I ask you something. I'm trying to buy a TV. I can buy an almost unused KURO: PDP-LX5090 for 300 euros / $330
Do you think it's a good buy compared to the prices and quality from modern TV's?
Not a bad price, I would go for it if its basically unused. Its probably better than most modern TV's. However I wouldn't spend more than that. Some people out there trying to sell some used plasmas close to new TV prices.

Last edited by Auditor55; 02-19-2019 at 12:55 PM.
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Old 02-19-2019, 01:07 PM   #322
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Not a bad price, I would go for it if its basically unused. Its probably better than most modern TV's. However I wouldn't spend more than that. Some people out there trying to sell some used plasmas close to new TV prices.
Thanks a lot
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Old 02-19-2019, 02:10 PM   #323
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I'd throw my LG OLED in the trash for an almost new Kuro.
You'll be going backwards, instead of forward. You do realize that, Pioneer Kuros cannot, and will never be updated to 4K, Dolby Vision, HDR10, HDR10+, Wireless Internet Connectivity, apps and other smart tv features. As a matter of fact, the Kuros can't be updated to anything at all! You'll just have an old 1080p plasma...Since you like old technology and 4K is not pleasing to you, you might be able to find a new Laserdisc player or a VCR, then you can go back to watching laserdisc and VHS movies.
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Old 02-19-2019, 05:38 PM   #324
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Some people are not interested in wireless since they have a wired 10Gbps or 1Gbps home network. Most Pioneer Kuro owners that want streaming are currently either using their Blu-ray player from 2010 or a modern Sony 4K Blu-ray player with streaming.


If one wants the best streaming for their Pioneer plasma they are buying products like the Roku Ultra.


Pioneer plasmas offer better motion quality when compared to OLED. However the advantage of owning a 4K Ultra HD OLED screen is the increased static resolution, and the HDR features like Dolby Vision HDR and HDR10. But no OLED screen offers HDR10+ yet.
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Old 02-19-2019, 06:43 PM   #325
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Some people don't care for HDR either. The apps/features comparison was always funny to me since you would have a billion other devices in your home that already have them.

Regarless, kuros are still sought after because they have a stunning picture. You can argue OLED is better because x reasons, i still don't think they take anything away from kuros. Both are great displays.
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Old 02-19-2019, 07:36 PM   #326
Moonlight Shadow Moonlight Shadow is offline
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You'll be going backwards, instead of forward. You do realize that, Pioneer Kuros cannot, and will never be updated to 4K, Dolby Vision, HDR10, HDR10+, Wireless Internet Connectivity, apps and other smart tv features. As a matter of fact, the Kuros can't be updated to anything at all! You'll just have an old 1080p plasma...Since you like old technology and 4K is not pleasing to you, you might be able to find a new Laserdisc player or a VCR, then you can go back to watching laserdisc and VHS movies.
Bollocks.
VHS and Laserdisc look like crap. A Blu-ray Disc played on a new Pioneer Kuro looks wonderful, better than on my LG OLED (which is calibrated BTW).
Screen uniformity and motion handling were MUCH better on the Kuro. Black and white movies look like shit on every OLED I have checked with them. There is ALWAYS at least a slight colour tint somewhere on the screen.
I don't need absolute blacks since I never watch movies in a completely dark room. Black levels on the Kuro were good enough (and way better than in a cinema).
I also never use the internet connectivity of my LG because just about every device I have connected to it does it better.

I understand people prefering OLED's for their HDR capability but comparing Pioneer plasma TVs to ancient technologies like Laserdisc is just bullshit.

I don't think it's too much to ask of LG that their high-end TVs should handle motion and have a uniformity at least as good as a ten years old plasma TV.
As long as that is not the case I won't be completely satisfied with my TV and some fancy apps won't change that.
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Old 02-20-2019, 12:53 PM   #327
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Bollocks.
VHS and Laserdisc look like crap. A Blu-ray Disc played on a new Pioneer Kuro looks wonderful, better than on my LG OLED (which is calibrated BTW).
Screen uniformity and motion handling were MUCH better on the Kuro. Black and white movies look like shit on every OLED I have checked with them. There is ALWAYS at least a slight colour tint somewhere on the screen.
I don't need absolute blacks since I never watch movies in a completely dark room. Black levels on the Kuro were good enough (and way better than in a cinema).
I also never use the internet connectivity of my LG because just about every device I have connected to it does it better.

I understand people prefering OLED's for their HDR capability but comparing Pioneer plasma TVs to ancient technologies like Laserdisc is just bullshit.

I don't think it's too much to ask of LG that their high-end TVs should handle motion and have a uniformity at least as good as a ten years old plasma TV.
As long as that is not the case I won't be completely satisfied with my TV and some fancy apps won't change that.
I can attest to much of what you are saying. I don't think OLED (sample and hold) will ever handle motion better than plasma or CRT. Glad I did not sell my 10 year old Kuro.

Sometimes OLED is too dark which destroys shadow detail.
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Old 02-20-2019, 05:15 PM   #328
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I can attest to much of what you are saying. I don't think OLED (sample and hold) will ever handle motion better than plasma or CRT.
I really miss the motion on CRTs.

Back in the early days of HDTVs, before I even had one, my dad got a CRT HDTV at his house. Of course it was smaller than the screen sizes that many of us have now, but everything just looked really nice and cinematic, and without compromising at all on the motion. It wasn't even something that I considered an issue at the time because there was just no noticeable difference (for the worse) in that regard.

Then when things like LCD and Plasma became the norm and CRTs were largely discontinued (sadly, but for obvious reasons of practicality in terms of size, weight, etc.), the motion issue really started to stand out.

My first HDTV was a 37" LCD LG model that I got in 2007. I actually still have it in another room. As far as LCDs go, the motion is relatively "fine," but defiantly a noticeable difference compared to CRTs.

I never did own a Kuro (so maybe in that regard it was still better than my current main set), but I got the 64 inch Samsung F8500 Plasma TV almost 5 years ago (the "last great plasma" set before they were discontinued, and one that was highly rated at the Value Electronics shoot out in 2013 and 2014). The motion on it is definitely better than the LCD, but still not as good as CRTs. It does have one of those god-awful motion smoothing options, but those things are terrible and don't look natural at all, so I keep that turned off.

It's just too bad that CRT technology either couldn't have been revamped to reduce the "foot print" it takes up and reduce the weight to some extent, allowing for larger sized sets, or that some other technology that allowed for a flat display never came along that truly and accurately matches the motion of a CRT set.

Given how much I spent on that Plasma set just a few years ago, it will be a good while before I upgrade it (though I've been buying 4K combo packs since I know eventually I'll have a 4K set, and I even got a 4K player when the Blu-Ray player that I use with my plasma stopped working). And I'm sure when I eventually do, there will be some degree of trade off in this regard.

While being able to benefit from HDR is of interest to me, comparatively speaking, I'd be more interested in a TV that replicates the motion of a CRT. Of course being able to do that AND have HDR would be optimal.
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Old 02-20-2019, 06:03 PM   #329
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Originally Posted by Moonlight Shadow View Post
Bollocks.
VHS and Laserdisc look like crap. A Blu-ray Disc played on a new Pioneer Kuro looks wonderful, better than on my LG OLED (which is calibrated BTW).
Screen uniformity and motion handling were MUCH better on the Kuro. Black and white movies look like shit on every OLED I have checked with them. There is ALWAYS at least a slight colour tint somewhere on the screen.
I don't need absolute blacks since I never watch movies in a completely dark room. Black levels on the Kuro were good enough (and way better than in a cinema).
I also never use the internet connectivity of my LG because just about every device I have connected to it does it better.

I understand people prefering OLED's for their HDR capability but comparing Pioneer plasma TVs to ancient technologies like Laserdisc is just bullshit.

I don't think it's too much to ask of LG that their high-end TVs should handle motion and have a uniformity at least as good as a ten years old plasma TV.
As long as that is not the case I won't be completely satisfied with my TV and some fancy apps won't change that.
I don't have a problem with the motion because, I don't watch sports events to even notice any issues with it on my OLED. I primarily watch movies and they look awesome, especially in 4K.
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Old 02-20-2019, 06:56 PM   #330
LordoftheRings LordoftheRings is offline
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Originally Posted by slimdude View Post
You'll be going backwards, instead of forward. You do realize that, Pioneer Kuros cannot, and will never be updated to 4K, Dolby Vision, HDR10, HDR10+, Wireless Internet Connectivity, apps and other smart tv features. As a matter of fact, the Kuros can't be updated to anything at all! You'll just have an old 1080p plasma...Since you like old technology and 4K is not pleasing to you, you might be able to find a new Laserdisc player or a VCR, then you can go back to watching laserdisc and VHS movies.
Does the Kuro support 3D? If it does then it's a no-brainer.
...Unless there is a 2019 OLED 3D model.

Pioneer Kuro plasma is also good @ Motion Blur. ...And it's the King of Blacks.
$300 is a fair price for one that is almost brand new, not too many hours on it, like less than 300 hours.

Today you can buy a 75" LED 4K UHD HDR TV for $999
A Pioneer Kuro plasma 50" TV, even for $299 won't have that cinematic visual experience of that 75"

Sony makes a 4K 3D LED 100" TV. ...2017 model, the best of its class (IMO) ... Z9D
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Old 02-20-2019, 08:05 PM   #331
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Does the Kuro support 3D? If it does then it's a no-brainer.
No, there were no Pioneer Kuro 3D TVs. Panasonic made the first 3D TV in 2010, just when the Kuros were discontinued.
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Old 02-20-2019, 09:31 PM   #332
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The last Pioneer models were the 2008 models that went out of production in April of 2009. 2010 was the launch of Blu-ray 3D and 3D displays.
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Old 02-20-2019, 10:51 PM   #333
LordoftheRings LordoftheRings is offline
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Originally Posted by slimdude View Post
No, there were no Pioneer Kuro 3D TVs. Panasonic made the first 3D TV in 2010, just when the Kuros were discontinued.
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Originally Posted by HDTV1080P View Post
The last Pioneer models were the 2008 models that went out of production in April of 2009. 2010 was the launch of Blu-ray 3D and 3D displays.
Thx, I wasn't too sure.
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Old 03-07-2019, 11:30 AM   #334
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I saw this thread and beeing a Kuro user, would just like to make a comment.

There is no doubt there are aspects of better image quality from 4K TV's compared to old 1080p Kuros, but in some cases, this is not due to the TV technical limits of the display.

All Bluray and UHD material is compressed with the 4:2:0 chroma subsampling. In essence this means that 4 pixels share the same color data, rendering half the vertical resolution and half the horizontal. However, since 4K is double the vertical and double the horizontal resolution of 1080p, downconverting 4K to 1080p would logically render a full 1:1 color color/pixel ratio with no subsampling, meaning a much higher effective resolution on a normal 1080p screen.

The problem is the HDCP2.2 implementation making such a downconvertion impossible with commercial media. Thus to achieve this advantage one has to rip the content first, but once this is done, there is a noticeable improvement. 4K content looks much better on 1080p screens than 1080p content does, at least from my experience. This also shows another reason for why HDCP2.2 is implemented in the first place. It drives consumption/sales by blocking out these advantages from older gear.

The only real benifit of modern 4K displays is the rec.2020 color space, but even in this area there is pontential for improvement since the KURO displays have beep color support. If the player would provide a decent color mapping algoritm converting HDR10 into rec.709 color space with 10-bit color dept that is actually designed for Kuro displays specifically taking benefit of the plasma panels fine "near-black" detail abilities, we would see KURO performance awfully close to modern 4K displays.

Last edited by automan; 03-07-2019 at 12:56 PM.
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Old 03-08-2019, 06:50 PM   #335
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Originally Posted by Moonlight Shadow View Post
I don't need absolute blacks since I never watch movies in a completely dark room. Black levels on the Kuro were good enough (and way better than in a cinema).
Blacks are inky in IMAX with Laser and from what I've heard Dolby Cinema too which isn't surprising as that's also laser. Going to see Dunkirk in full frame IMAX with Laser was like watching it on a giant 82' hybrid with OLED blacks, LED colors and brightness, Kuro motion resolution and IMAX aspect ratio. Freaking perfection. At the Toronto location they also use deep dark green EXIT lights instead of intrusive red lighting and the exit corridor is completely outside the auditorium around the corner so no light bleed.

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Pioneer Kuro plasma is the King of Blacks.
No it lost that title at the 2013 HDTV shootout when LG showed up with their 55" 1080p OLED.

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The only real benifit of modern 4K displays is the rec.2020 color space
Agree to disagree?
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Old 03-09-2019, 04:29 PM   #336
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Watching native 4K Ultra HD Blu-ray content on a high-end DLP projector or lower end home OLED flat panel is ideal. However the second best option for those that have not upgraded their equipment yet is to connect a 4K Ultra HD Blu-ray player to a Pioneer plasma or older 1080P display. HDCP 2.2 is not needed when the native 4K content is downscaled to 1080P.


I do notice around a 5% picture quality improvement when watching 4K Ultra HD Blu-ray discs on a 1080P plasma since the HEVC codec is better and a higher bit rate when compared to MPEG-4/AVC and VC-1.The source material for some movies is native 4K and downscaled to 1080P looks around 5% better when compared to regular Blu-ray. Now if one has a OLED display with Dolby Vision HDR the native 4K Blu-ray disc might look 15% better as long as one sits close enough to their 77 inch OLED screen to see the resolution difference. 77 inches and larger is key for 4K. Yes 65 inch a 55 inch well work if one sits a few feet from the screen, but most people do not sit that close.

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Old 03-10-2019, 03:39 AM   #337
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So it's possible to have acceptable 4K experiences on older screens and/or legacy equipment? I thought only certain players had decent 1080p downconversion.
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Old 03-10-2019, 08:22 PM   #338
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My family members and I have been happy with the OPPO UDP-203 and Sony UBP-X800 when watching 4K Ultra HD Blu-ray discs that are downscaled to 1080P.
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Old 03-11-2019, 12:13 AM   #339
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I don't think they use plasma TVs anymore in TV shootouts.

https://www.flatpanelshd.com/news.ph...&id=1537850002
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Old 03-15-2019, 01:25 AM   #340
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LordoftheRings View Post
I don't think they use plasma TVs anymore in TV shootouts.

https://www.flatpanelshd.com/news.ph...&id=1537850002
They don't, but in 2013 Robert brought his 500-KRP along and LG also had their 1080p 55" OLED, that's when plasma lost the king of blacks title. OLED does true 0.00000000000000000000000000FL blacks.

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Watching native 4K Ultra HD Blu-ray content on a high-end DLP projector or lower end home OLED flat panel is ideal. However the second best option for those that have not upgraded their equipment yet is to connect a 4K Ultra HD Blu-ray player to a Pioneer plasma or older 1080P display. HDCP 2.2 is not needed when the native 4K content is downscaled to 1080P.


I do notice around a 5% picture quality improvement when watching 4K Ultra HD Blu-ray discs on a 1080P plasma since the HEVC codec is better and a higher bit rate when compared to MPEG-4/AVC and VC-1.The source material for some movies is native 4K and downscaled to 1080P looks around 5% better when compared to regular Blu-ray. Now if one has a OLED display with Dolby Vision HDR the native 4K Blu-ray disc might look 15% better as long as one sits close enough to their 77 inch OLED screen to see the resolution difference. 77 inches and larger is key for 4K. Yes 65 inch a 55 inch well work if one sits a few feet from the screen, but most people do not sit that close.
You should clarify in the bolded that your are ONLY talking about resolution which is far from the biggest improvement UHD discs bring and has nothing to do with viewing distance.

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Originally Posted by captainsolo View Post
So it's possible to have acceptable 4K experiences on older screens and/or legacy equipment? I thought only certain players had decent 1080p downconversion.
It's not the downconversion of resolution that's the issue, it's the conversion of HDR > SDR that can sometimes yield dodgy results AFAIK.

Last edited by dobyblue; 03-15-2019 at 03:45 PM.
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