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Old 12-27-2008, 12:57 PM   #41
Yeha-Noha Yeha-Noha is offline
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I have been thinking about trying out passive biamping. I really love the sound I am getting from my Energy tower speakers. I have an old Pioneer 1015 AVR that has 5.1 preamp inputs. It also provides bi-amp option for the front speakers. I would use the 1015 only for bi-amping. I could connect the front l/r preamp outputs from the V663 to the front l/r preamp inputs of the 1015. Then enable the bi-amp setting in the 1015 system setup.

However, second thoughts about doing this setup concern me: the SQ of the 1015 is bright (like most pioneers I've had in the past) while the SQ of the Yamaha is neutral or like their advertising slogans say, they have a natural sound quality. So is it possible that would mismatch my towers with the CC100 center timbre? It is true that the V663 is bi-amp capable, but that is not an option. I have a 7.1 system and I want to keep it that way. I don't want to buy more amplifiers like 4 mono blocks or 2 stereo power amps which is going to cost me more than the V663! This is just an experiment to see if bi-amping is really worth it.
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Old 01-01-2009, 12:06 AM   #42
sendmorebrains sendmorebrains is offline
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Default Bi Amping Experimenting !

YOU Wrote.......

I have been thinking about trying out passive biamping. I really love the sound I am getting from my Energy tower speakers. I have an old Pioneer 1015 AVR that has 5.1 preamp inputs. It also provides bi-amp option for the front speakers. I would use the 1015 only for bi-amping. I could connect the front l/r preamp outputs from the V663 to the front l/r preamp inputs of the 1015. Then enable the bi-amp setting in the 1015 system setup.

However, second thoughts about doing this setup concern me: the SQ of the 1015 is bright (like most pioneers I've had in the past) while the SQ of the Yamaha is neutral or like their advertising slogans say, they have a natural sound quality. So is it possible that would mismatch my towers with the CC100 center timbre? It is true that the V663 is bi-amp capable, but that is not an option. I have a 7.1 system and I want to keep it that way. I don't want to buy more amplifiers like 4 mono blocks or 2 stereo power amps which is going to cost me more than the V663! This is just an experiment to see if bi-amping is really worth it.


OK - now u dont got to worry about the COLD Bright sound the Pios give out ...Trust me on that Im deep into the Pioneer amps.

When u hook up the 1015 u are now ADDING power (ie: more watts to the bass drivers)

When u add power to the bass this "Warms" the sound up. I find in my set up(see my sig) that I had to double my bass watts to the mids and highs to have a significant effect on my ears.

So hook ur set-up and pls write back for your results ...
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Old 01-01-2009, 12:53 AM   #43
Yeha-Noha Yeha-Noha is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sendmorebrains View Post
YOU Wrote.......

I have been thinking about trying out passive biamping. I really love the sound I am getting from my Energy tower speakers. I have an old Pioneer 1015 AVR that has 5.1 preamp inputs. It also provides bi-amp option for the front speakers. I would use the 1015 only for bi-amping. I could connect the front l/r preamp outputs from the V663 to the front l/r preamp inputs of the 1015. Then enable the bi-amp setting in the 1015 system setup.

However, second thoughts about doing this setup concern me: the SQ of the 1015 is bright (like most pioneers I've had in the past) while the SQ of the Yamaha is neutral or like their advertising slogans say, they have a natural sound quality. So is it possible that would mismatch my towers with the CC100 center timbre? It is true that the V663 is bi-amp capable, but that is not an option. I have a 7.1 system and I want to keep it that way. I don't want to buy more amplifiers like 4 mono blocks or 2 stereo power amps which is going to cost me more than the V663! This is just an experiment to see if bi-amping is really worth it.


OK - now u dont got to worry about the COLD Bright sound the Pios give out ...Trust me on that Im deep into the Pioneer amps.

When u hook up the 1015 u are now ADDING power (ie: more watts to the bass drivers)

When u add power to the bass this "Warms" the sound up. I find in my set up(see my sig) that I had to double my bass watts to the mids and highs to have a significant effect on my ears.

So hook ur set-up and pls write back for your results ...
Ok, then perhaps it's worth setting it all up. I'll do some listening tests after I run YPAO calibration. It may take a couple of days before I have any results though. Thanks for your comments too.
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Old 01-01-2009, 04:44 PM   #44
Yeha-Noha Yeha-Noha is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sendmorebrains View Post
OK - now u dont got to worry about the COLD Bright sound the Pios give out ...Trust me on that Im deep into the Pioneer amps.

When u hook up the 1015 u are now ADDING power (ie: more watts to the bass drivers)

When u add power to the bass this "Warms" the sound up. I find in my set up(see my sig) that I had to double my bass watts to the mids and highs to have a significant effect on my ears.

So hook ur set-up and pls write back for your results ...
Quote:
Originally Posted by rwojtalewicz View Post
Ok, then perhaps it's worth setting it all up. I'll do some listening tests after I run YPAO calibration. It may take a couple of days before I have any results though. Thanks for your comments too.
I hooked it all up this morning. Since I like opera, I played some of my favorite BDs from Opus Arte like La Cenerentola and Die Zauberflöte especially for soprano and tenor parts that can be rather unforgiving if the sound system isn't up to it. Cenerentola's arias sounded absolutely pristine, pure, and natural, like at a live performance. There were definitely more highs but those were neither bright nor harsh. The sound was open, spacious, and airy. It all just sounded so natural. I was quite pleased.

Later, I watched TDK (The Dark Knight). I noticed right off during the first 15 to minutes, that the bass was more solid and open. Not long after that, I noticed that the Pioneer 1015's display was blinking OVERHEAT, having activated the thermal protection circuity. I turned off the Pioneer and felt the chassis and ventilation vents on top. It was slightly warm but not at all hot.

I went into the system menu and switched it from Biamp back to Normal after I disconnected the speaker wires from the top terminal on the C300s and put the terminal jumpers back in place. Now it was no longer in biamp configuration. I turned the Pioneer 1015 back to watching TDK. Again, within a few minutes the thermal protection ciruitry came on with OVERHEAT blinking on the front display. After that, I hooked everything back up to the Yamaha receiver. Now it is back to normal again. It still sounds great, but the bass isn't quite as solid and less details in the high frequency sounds.

I don't know but the Pioneer amp, now about 5 to 6 years old, probably has seen its day. Also I let my son use it for awhile until he bought a nice HDMI ready receiver to hook up to his PS3. He never told me about any problems with it though. The other thing that could be happening is that the 1015's power supply is quite inadequate for high power and low impedance. It looks to me that it couldn't handle biamping Energy C300s which have a nominal impedance of 8 ohms. However, the specifications say that the C300s have a 4 ohm minimum impedance. However, I consider the nominal rating of 8 ohm to be the impedance rating for the speaker. My Yamaha receiver never had any problems with the S300s. The biamping sections in the 1015 manual didn't say that 6 to 4 ohm speakers couldn't be biamped, but it does say on p. 71 to switch to 6 ohm for speakers rated for 6 ohm but the C300s are definitely rated at 8 ohms. But I am not going to try that with the 1015.

However, I think I got a taste of what biamping can do with the right audio equipment. So, my future plan is to buy a dedicated multi channel power amplifier that has separate power supplies for each channel, like a 5 channel power amp designed normally for a 5.1 system. But biamping will take up 4 of those channels. The fifth channel I can use for the center leaving the Yamaha 663 to power only the side and rear surrounds. That should definitely work superbly well. However a five channel power amp having a real 200 W RMS minimum per channel into 8 ohms is going to be rather expensive.

The lesson I've learned is not to use receivers for biamping. They aren't designed for it even though I was using the Pioneer 1015 in Biamp mode as a 4 channel power amp, it just doesn't have the power or capability to do that for very long for Energy S300 speakers, as I found out.
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Old 01-03-2009, 06:09 AM   #45
BLUTRIG BLUTRIG is offline
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Default 5.2 Channel Bi-amp made easy

Buy 2 more ASCEND ACOUSTICS CMT-340SE,more wire & banana plug,most importante a very easy to setup & calibrate 10.2 channel A/V receiver,the Pioneer Elite SC-09TX
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Old 01-20-2009, 11:10 AM   #46
Automission Automission is offline
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I don't get any of this passive, active bi amping, etc. Basically, I connect wires from high connectors to front speakers, and the lows to surrounds, yes? Can I use cable that has four separate wires built into it?

My Onkyo 606 manual shows running wires from the speakers to the surround backs, yet it calls it bi-amping. If that's bi amping, what is bi wiring?
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Old 01-20-2009, 11:33 AM   #47
Got2LoveGadgets Got2LoveGadgets is offline
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I spent hours bi-wiring all my speakers some time ago and to be honest really didn't notice much difference. Im glad I have done it though as it would always have been in the back of my mind I wonder if they sound better bi-wired I now know not really
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Old 01-20-2009, 12:04 PM   #48
tilapiah6 tilapiah6 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Automission View Post
I don't get any of this passive, active bi amping, etc. Basically, I connect wires from high connectors to front speakers, and the lows to surrounds, yes? Can I use cable that has four separate wires built into it?

My Onkyo 606 manual shows running wires from the speakers to the surround backs, yet it calls it bi-amping. If that's bi amping, what is bi wiring?
Bi-wiring is using a splitter to have separate speaker wire going to both the high and low connectors. You are actively bi-amping! I noticed a huge difference doing this with my Monitor 70s.
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Old 01-20-2009, 12:40 PM   #49
Automission Automission is offline
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okay then, thanks!
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Old 02-24-2009, 02:06 PM   #50
PepeGameblouse PepeGameblouse is offline
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I also noticed a lot of difference in my speakers' performance when I did this. They sound amazing.
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Old 02-25-2009, 04:48 PM   #51
kefrank kefrank is offline
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Default Bi-wiring Question

I have a question about bi-wiring.

In my two-channel setup, I have a Harman Kardon HK3480 receiver, which is rated for speakers from 4 to 8 ohms. It's currently driving a pair of Wharfedale Diamond 8.2 speakers, which are 6 ohm and have the HF and LF connectors for bi-wiring. The receiver has A and B speaker outputs, so I wanted to try bi-wiring the Wharfedales by using both speaker outputs.

However, the FAQ for my receiver on the H/K website says that when using both speaker outputs simultaneously, the parallel impedance should be greater than 4 ohms. I'm wondering if bi-wiring my 6 ohm speakers will drop the parallel impedance below 4 ohms. I know that driving two separate sets of 6 ohm speakers simultaneously would drop the parallel impedance below 4 ohms, but I don't know if bi-wiring the single set of 6 ohm speakers would be essentially the same (forgive my electrical ignorance). Anyone have any thoughts or insight?
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Old 03-05-2009, 09:39 PM   #52
zicmubleu zicmubleu is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kefrank View Post
I have a question about bi-wiring.

In my two-channel setup, I have a Harman Kardon HK3480 receiver, which is rated for speakers from 4 to 8 ohms. It's currently driving a pair of Wharfedale Diamond 8.2 speakers, which are 6 ohm and have the HF and LF connectors for bi-wiring. The receiver has A and B speaker outputs, so I wanted to try bi-wiring the Wharfedales by using both speaker outputs.

However, the FAQ for my receiver on the H/K website says that when using both speaker outputs simultaneously, the parallel impedance should be greater than 4 ohms. I'm wondering if bi-wiring my 6 ohm speakers will drop the parallel impedance below 4 ohms. I know that driving two separate sets of 6 ohm speakers simultaneously would drop the parallel impedance below 4 ohms, but I don't know if bi-wiring the single set of 6 ohm speakers would be essentially the same (forgive my electrical ignorance). Anyone have any thoughts or insight?
Do you really mean bi-amp, not bi-wiring? I tried to look at the spec sheets for those speakers but they didn't have an actual schematic. Based on what I read and the pictures shown, the high and low speakers inputs are wired in parallel, so if you remove the straps I would think each speaker will actually be closer to 12 ohms. Probably one of the forum gurus will respond to your question with more authority, but I would think you are talking about bi-amping and it would be fine for your system.

Of course you will also need to look at the receiver's instructions to be sure which set of outputs is for the high and which is for low. I guess your system has an A+B option but more importantly is that it is separating high and low freq for bi-amping purposes which is not what A&B speakers are normally used for, IMO. Assuming the speaker inputs are actually to a passive crossover maybe it really doesn't matter about having the crossover done in the receiver, but this is really guessing wildly at this point.
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Old 04-13-2009, 06:57 PM   #53
Doc Wixson Doc Wixson is offline
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Default The Importance of Bi-Wiring

A well respected high end speaker designer (Richard Vandersteen) once told me that most speakers would sound better and be less expensive if the designer incorporated a single input (monowire) rather than seperate HF and LF (biwire) crossovers if the end user is going to insist on utilizing single (monowire) speaker connections. That by leaving the gold plated binding post plates in place, you will actually be introducing RFI (radio frequency interferance) thereby smearing the image of better quality speakers because they tend to act much like an antenna.

The bi-wire advantage can be summed up in the following way:

"Reducing magnetic interaction is the primary reason speaker biwiring helps so much. Biwireable speakers have separate inputs for the bass and upper frequency ranges. These speakers simply allow separate access to the two halves of the crossover.

A [bi-wirable] crossover is simply a low-pass filter which allows low
frequency energy to pass to the woofer, and a high-pass filter which allows higher frequency current to pass to the tweeter, or midrange and tweeter. These filters block the undesired signal by causing the amplifier to “see” an essentially infinite impedance (resistance) at the frequencies which are to be blocked. Because there is no closed circuit at the blocked frequencies, current at these frequencies does not travel in the cable-just like a light bulb which does not light when the electric switch is turned
off, no matter how many megawatts are available.

Taking high frequency energy out of the cable feeding the bass does not significantly affect bass performance. However, taking the bass energy out of the cable feeding the tweeter or midrange/tweeter causes a big improvement. The magnetic fields associated with the bass notes are mostly prevented from interacting with and distorting the fields associated with the higher frequencies. While the fundamental bass frequency is not affected, the
bass sounds better because the bass instrument’s harmonics are in the
midrange. The harmonics define the bass note and describe the instrument which created the note."

Although there are many things that affect speaker and system performance (speaker placement, equipment selection etc.) this one is agreed upon by most better speaker manufacturers, not just the folks that make the cables!

THX, Doc
http://www.AVIA-Designs.com
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Old 04-14-2009, 05:16 AM   #54
Grevlin Grevlin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PS3+HDDVD OWNER View Post
Question:


I have an Onkyo 605, CS2 Center, Monitor 50 fronts, and soon to be decided rears (maybe another pair of 50's) Subwoofer will soon follow.

Im planning on starting off with 5.1, so would it be beneficial to bi-amp my setup since im planning on starting off at 5.1 anyways?
My system is pretty close to yours- I bi-amped my front 50's tonight and they sound great. I highly recommend you do it - just read your 605 manual and be sure to change the speaker setting to bi-amp. I played the ending to August Rush on Blu-ray and the orchestra sounded amazing
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Old 05-11-2009, 05:13 AM   #55
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Default biamp - which method

Hey guys, am currently working on a deal to pick up a twin to my Rotel amp and will be bi-amping my mains. I've never bi-amped and have found 2 ways, I'm just wondering if anyone here has tried both and have a favorite

the Standard Bi-amp



or the Vertical Bi-amp



The vertical seems to make more sense to me - 1 amp 160w for each speaker but doing so would it not make more sense to bridge each amp and run bi-wire to each speaker? Of course then I would have 350w going to each speaker and I don't think I want to go that high with my paradigms?

Anyways thought I would put this out there to those experienced and see what we come up with
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Old 05-11-2009, 05:50 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lucv13 View Post
Hey guys, am currently working on a deal to pick up a twin to my Rotel amp and will be bi-amping my mains. I've never bi-amped and have found 2 ways, I'm just wondering if anyone here has tried both and have a favorite

the Standard Bi-amp



or the Vertical Bi-amp



The vertical seems to make more sense to me - 1 amp 160w for each speaker but doing so would it not make more sense to bridge each amp and run bi-wire to each speaker? Of course then I would have 350w going to each speaker and I don't think I want to go that high with my paradigms?

Anyways thought I would put this out there to those experienced and see what we come up with
Just because you can send 350watts to your speakers doesn't mean that is continuous RMS. It's just head room if you or your speakers ever demand it. I personally wouldn't be worried about the wattage, but that's just me.
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Old 05-11-2009, 05:58 AM   #57
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I have done many years of experience in bi-wiring, bi-amping, and tri-amping speakers. These are my conclusions:
  1. Bi-wiring is a waste of time and is contrary to the the superposition theorem in electronics which states that any number of voltages applied simultaneously to a linear network (your crossover) will result in a current which is the exact sum of the currents that would result if the voltages were applied individually. Some people refer to bi-wiring as buy-wiring.
  2. Bi-amping and tri-amping will make your speakers sound better and it will lower the inter-modulation distortion in the mid-range frequencies that the ears are most sensitive. You may also get about 4dB more headroom, which can subjectively increase the perceived dynamic range. However, don't expect miracles. People tend to exaggerate a lot.
  3. If the amplifiers are identical, there is absolutely no difference between standard and vertical bi-amping. You will not be able to hear any difference.
Read my Post #26 in this thread.

Last edited by Big Daddy; 05-11-2009 at 11:48 AM.
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Old 05-11-2009, 06:31 AM   #58
lucv13 lucv13 is offline
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1 Bi-wiring is a waste of time and is contrary to the the superposition theorem in electronics which states that any number of voltages applied simultaneously to a linear network (your crossover) will result in a current which is the exact sum of the currents that would result if the voltages were applied individually. Some people refer to bi-wiring as buy-wiring.

I agree that bi-wiring did not result in a noticable difference in sound, but I was able to do it on the cheap - basically the cost of a dozen banana plugs and some electrical tape since buddy brought me some 14/4 cable from his shop

2 Bi-amping and tri-amping will make your speakers sound better and it will lower the inter-modulation distortion in the mid-range frequencies that the ears are most sensitive. You may also get about 4dB more headroom, which can subjectively increase the perceived dynamic range. However, don't expect miracles. People tend to exaggerate a lot


I guess to bi-amp I will simply free up the receiver end of the bi-wire, add another pair of banana plugs and go with vertical bi -amping or do you think there would be more of a benefit with the added headroom I would get from bridging each amp and continue to bi-wire (just cause I already have the bi-wire)
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Old 05-11-2009, 07:00 AM   #59
Big Daddy Big Daddy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lucv13 View Post
1 Bi-wiring is a waste of time and is contrary to the the superposition theorem in electronics which states that any number of voltages applied simultaneously to a linear network (your crossover) will result in a current which is the exact sum of the currents that would result if the voltages were applied individually. Some people refer to bi-wiring as buy-wiring.

I agree that bi-wiring did not result in a noticable difference in sound, but I was able to do it on the cheap - basically the cost of a dozen banana plugs and some electrical tape since buddy brought me some 14/4 cable from his shop

2 Bi-amping and tri-amping will make your speakers sound better and it will lower the inter-modulation distortion in the mid-range frequencies that the ears are most sensitive. You may also get about 4dB more headroom, which can subjectively increase the perceived dynamic range. However, don't expect miracles. People tend to exaggerate a lot


I guess to bi-amp I will simply free up the receiver end of the bi-wire, add another pair of banana plugs and go with vertical bi -amping or do you think there would be more of a benefit with the added headroom I would get from bridging each amp and continue to bi-wire (just cause I already have the bi-wire)
Forget about bi-wiring. Get yourself a used two-channel amplifier and do proper bi-amping. Used two-channel amps are pretty cheap these days. Let the receiver drive the tweeters and let the amplifier drive your woofers. Vertical or standard bi-amping makes no difference.

Some people may argue that it is better not to use the receiver and to get a 4 -channel amplifier (or two 2-channel amplifiers) instead and run both speakers with identical amplifiers. Although that is a better option, the effect may not be that significant.
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Old 05-11-2009, 07:45 AM   #60
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Daddy View Post
Forget about bi-wiring. Get yourself a used two-channel amplifier and do proper bi-amping. Used two-channel amps are pretty cheap these days. Let the receiver drive the tweeters and let the amplifier drive your woofers. Vertical or standard bi-amping makes no difference.

Some people may argue that it is better not to use the receiver and to get a 4 -channel amplifier (or two 2-channel amplifiers) instead and run both speakers with identical amplifiers. Although that is a better option, the effect may not be that significant.

yea yea yea, just saying I already have the 14/4 cable made up, red black green white in one cable so just need to separate the red/black and the green/white from the one end - add another pair of bananas and I'll have a bi-amp cables - hopefully get my 2nd Rotel RB-890 next week and go with the vertical bi-amp. One amp and one cable per speaker
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