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Old 10-04-2019, 04:11 PM   #3441
PeterTHX PeterTHX is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dubstar View Post
It's just weird that for theatrical mixing DTS implements and uses the standard multiple speaker array similar to Atmos, yet for home application they go the easy route and keep to only 12 channels, here with Pro, they don't go the extra mile and just cheap out and stick to 7.1.4 - oh well.
2 different and incompatible systems, unlike home Atmos which can directly import objects from the theatrical.
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Old 10-04-2019, 05:21 PM   #3442
FilmFreakosaurus FilmFreakosaurus is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dubstar View Post
It's just weird that for theatrical mixing DTS implements and uses the standard multiple speaker array similar to Atmos, yet for home application they go the easy route and keep to only 12 channels, here with Pro, they don't go the extra mile and just cheap out and stick to 7.1.4 - oh well.
As stated it's different from the cinema version and I (and others) have suspected for some time DTS prematurely released home DTS: X since consumer Dolby Atmos was already out and they were behind the 8 ball.

So... they released the codec without 3D object scaling and rendering working properly. Maybe they thought they could patch it later. The first studio to use DTS's product, Well Go home video, starts releasing Blu-ray's with 7.1.4 beds + 5 objects. That's the maximum wavelet count for home DTS: X, plus they have no equivalent spatial compression algorithm to combine nearest spatially tagged objects when there are more objects in the mix session than the maximum allowed during final master track rendering.

Fast forward a little bit and DTS starts conveying to audio post mixers to render home DTS: X tracks out to 11.1 only (the fixed 7.1.4 bed with no moving objects). If they are to be expanded at a later date, DTS will use upmixing. Their DTS for the home audio immersive mixing software suite is marketed as rendering 11.1 channels with the mention of 3D objects during the mixing session only.

DTS: X tracks from all other studios, except one UHD title from Fox (ID4 - with a 7.1.4 bed + 1 object encode), are encoded as 7.1.4.

Soon after that all processors that could read the object metadata on DTS: X tracks got an "update" that eliminated this handy feature.

There was discussion on other forums when DTS: X first popped up in consumer gear that the positionally rendered 3D objects were not behaving as expected.

DTS: X Pro uses matrix extraction techniques to fill in the gaps in their 30.2 maximum speaker layout. All coordinates outside of the 7.1.4 home layout fit exactly within a center extraction scenario. Superimpose the 7.1.4 layout with the 30.2 layout and you will immediately notice that.

Matrix steering logic is never as precise as discrete speaker addressing like with Atmos objects. That coincides with what I heard at the CEDIA demo of DTS: X Pro.

Put two and two together...

Last edited by FilmFreakosaurus; 10-04-2019 at 05:40 PM.
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Old 10-09-2019, 03:06 PM   #3443
Zoland2020 Zoland2020 is offline
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Sounds about accurate @FilmFreakosaurus, the home version of DTS:X could have been just as popular as Dolby Atmos at home if DTS didn't rushed the format out of the door.
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Old 10-29-2019, 07:49 PM   #3444
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So I know the real answer is buy a proper set up but what is anyone who has it opinion's of the Sony HT-X8500 soundbar?

Thinking of getting it as my only way into an Atmos set up anytime this century.
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Old 10-29-2019, 08:17 PM   #3445
oddbox83 oddbox83 is offline
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So I know the real answer is buy a proper set up but what is anyone who has it opinion's of the Sony HT-X8500 soundbar?

Thinking of getting it as my only way into an Atmos set up anytime this century.
As long as you don't kid yourself it's anything but a stereo bar with Atmos processing thrown in. There are better Atmos soundbar options out there depending on budget.

Last edited by oddbox83; 10-29-2019 at 08:23 PM.
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Old 10-29-2019, 10:30 PM   #3446
FilmFreakosaurus FilmFreakosaurus is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by russgup View Post
So I know the real answer is buy a proper set up but what is anyone who has it opinion's of the Sony HT-X8500 soundbar?

Thinking of getting it as my only way into an Atmos set up anytime this century.

Better have great Atmos than waste your money on crap Atmos. Soundbars are not the ticket for immersive audio (or most any audio, for that matter).
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Old 10-29-2019, 11:01 PM   #3447
ramzy1 ramzy1 is offline
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Any opinions on front wide speakers? Working on a new construction room that is wired for them but wondering how much of priority they should be compared to upgrading the core 7.1.4.
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Old 10-30-2019, 05:13 AM   #3448
FilmFreakosaurus FilmFreakosaurus is offline
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Any opinions on front wide speakers? Working on a new construction room that is wired for them but wondering how much of priority they should be compared to upgrading the core 7.1.4.

Keep the wiring, emphasize the rest and then come back to the wides when you have a chance.
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Old 10-30-2019, 01:29 PM   #3449
ramzy1 ramzy1 is offline
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I've never heard Atmos or DTS upmixing with them. How active are they meaning is there a lot of bleed from the L/R to them or is an occasional effect? How important is it that they need to match the front 3 speakers?
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Old 10-30-2019, 07:20 PM   #3450
samlop10 samlop10 is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ramzy1 View Post
I've never heard Atmos or DTS upmixing with them. How active are they meaning is there a lot of bleed from the L/R to them or is an occasional effect? How important is it that they need to match the front 3 speakers?
Ideally, you'd use a processor / receiver that matrixes sound to them from the information for the side and surround speakers (given they are in between them at the same height). So the sound to the wides wouldn't match the front speakers per say, but rather the receiver would 'create' sound to them based on the sound data.

I'd recommend prioritizing 7.1.4, and if you want / can go further than that, then I would recommend trying to incorporate the wides for a 9.1.4 system since the wiring is present already. The tricky part is getting the right receiver for it.

Right now, DTS-X is limited to 7.1.4, so, even if you have 9.1.4 system (or more channels), the extra channels beyond 7.1.4 will not be used at all. A few months ago DTS-X Pro was announced, which basically uses data from all 11 'core' channels to matrix sound into the speakers beyond the core 11, but, only a few of the newer receivers are set to be upgradable to it.

As far as Dolby Atmos goes, it all comes down to how they are mixed. Some mixes use plenty of objects which makes them very scalable beyond the 11 channels, but there are others which are purposely limited to a specific number of channels, and it just simply comes down to how the creators decide to mix it. There are some receivers which can apply a DSP on top of Atmos and DTS-X to create sound in channels which the mix does not use, but they are pretty tricky and I've yet to read or hear of one that is satisfying and relatively accurate.

My recommendation would be to stick to 7.1.4 for now, and once you find a receiver or processor with DTS-X Pro that you want and falls within your price range then go for it then.

I know that was an overload of information, but I hope it helps.
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Old 10-31-2019, 07:30 PM   #3451
gotmule gotmule is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ramzy1 View Post
I've never heard Atmos or DTS upmixing with them. How active are they meaning is there a lot of bleed from the L/R to them or is an occasional effect? How important is it that they need to match the front 3 speakers?
I have been using front wide channels for some time now, so I can share some first hand experience. As Samlop stated, they are not active with any DTS-X, True HD, or DTS Master HD mix. Any of the up mixers also do not use them, unless you invest in a Trinnov or Storm Audio processor which currently support DTS X Pro...but these are very pricey. No receiver has an up mixer however that will incorporate the width channels or DTS X Pro currently as far as I am aware of.

With Atmos mixes, my Marantz processor does incorporate them, and the effect can be pretty cool at times. The result though depends on the mix though. A movie like The Patriot was amazing as John Williams’ score was focused on the front soundstage, which included the mains, center, top front, and width channels. The soundstage was enormous and literally jaw dropping. Not every movie calls them out though, but they always do add something to the experience as they do pull from the L/R and anchor front to rear pans as it is more seamless of a transition when an effect moves from from front to back or back to front.

They definitely need to be at the same height as your mains and surrounds as they all work together on that level. It is not necessary to have them be the same model speaker as your mains, but they should be a close match if possible, ideally the same brand at a minimum. For example, I wouldn’t put a pair of Klipsch there with a horn tweeter, when your mains have a silk dome tweeter, as that would not be a good match.

Lastly, your room needs to be able to accommodate them, as placement is critical for the effect to work.

They are definitely not necessary though, as a well designed Atmos room is something you will certainly enjoy, but if you can pull it off, width channels can add to the experience.

Last edited by gotmule; 10-31-2019 at 08:09 PM.
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