Is Criterion going 4K UHD HDR?

[renegadeviking]

Originally Posted by Gacivory

Well if that’s how you feel. DVD’s are notoriously cheaper than Blu’s. So why bother with Blu’s? Why buy something again if already have the DVD?

blurays have special features like Making of videos. DVDs only have the movie trailer. Some second hand blurays are only $3.99 to $12.99. $50 is the price of a videogame or rare rave cd or a boxset of 8 movies or an anime tv series.

Some animes are cheaper on bluray then DVD.

I still buy both!

[yoloswegmaster420]

According to an insider named "Geekgab" (who is apparently a reliable source), Criterion will be releasing their first 4K UHD but it will be region-locked at the behest of the licensor. Thanks to DukeTogo84 for providing the info.

[frakking toaster]

Originally Posted by yoloswegmaster420

According to an insider named "Geekgab" (who is apparently a reliable source), Criterion will be releasing their first 4K UHD but it will be region-locked at the behest of the licensor. Thanks to DukeTogo84 for providing the info.

Geek gab is not a reliable source. He literally just posts rumors as fact and fan art as if it’s real.

[Warm Gun]

Originally Posted by renegadeviking

paying $50 for a single bluray of a 50 year old movie that was $8 on dvd. Unless your a youtube star.

Criterion shouldn't be charging forty dollars for nearly every single movie release anyway. There's no reason all of them should cost the same to produce, and at some point they earn back what they paid on the restoration and can reduce the price. Most other labels don't do this. I wonder how much bigger they could be if they priced their movies more competitively. Forty dollars is a lot of money for one movie to most people. The 50 percent off sales that happen two or three times a year don't change the fact that the real price is forty dollars. Competing movies can be had more cheaply than twenty dollars when they go on sale.

[kishiro]

The BDA (Blu-ray Disc Association) does not allow for region-coding on 4K UHD. There are no regions defined in the specs at all. (However there is seemingly a couple UHD discs out there where they've enforced a regular BD-region checks in the BD-J startup properties...! )

[fighthefutureofhd]

Originally Posted by cgpublic

Criterion doesn't need an excuse. One could successfully argue that UHD is a failed platform, aesthetically (filmmakers believe HDR alters their intent), technically (the various implementations of HDR introduces too high a degree of variability in image), and financially (less than 5% of physical media sales). It's that simple.

Here's another simple truth. What matters for a Criterion title, i.e., the overwhelming majority of films which Criterion releases, is the quality of the restoration, not the delivery platform.

A 4K television upscales the image to 4K, so there is no need to futz around with HDR and listen to countless complaints about how the film never looked like this, the director would never approve this, etc.

Are there a handful of Criterion titles that could benefit from a UHD disc? Absolutely.

Are these handful of Criterion titles worth the risk to the Criterion installed base? Absolutely not.

Be thankful Criterion is still pressing Blu-rays in 2021, as we will soon learn from major players. That's the big question in 2021, not UHD.

You are correct that anyone can release a UHD disc. In the case of Pull Back Camera, the list price is $59.99.

That's right, $60, for the UHD of Fanny Lye Delivered, and we're not even counting shipping. I'd hate to say someone is looking like a clown all right, and take a guess, it's not Criterion.

Wish them the best, and I'm sure it's going to be discounted, but count me out.

I've made the decision that I'm not going to be spending what companies have been asking for fancy packaging and a UHD disc in 2021 unless it's a must-have, and guess what, there's not much left, if anything.

After all, the studios are more or less spent with the big releases. Star Wars. MCU. LOTR. Kubrick. There's one or two catalog opportunities still left, but let's face it, nothing along the lines of the above. Bond has been streaming in UHD for free, what do you think they're going to get for a disc now?

No studio or company is transitioning their entire release schedule to UHD, which is more or less what Criterion needs to consider given that many of their customers do in fact buy every Criterion release.

And for good reason. It's called bankruptcy.

There is so much that is wrong with that post, it would take days to unpack and discuss it all. So, I will focus on thing and that is the fact that the major studios have spent their wad already. Uncatagorically untrue. The major studios have just scratched the surface in terms of great movies to put out on UHD. There are all the classic movies from back in the day. Such as Gone With the Wind, Cat on a Hot Tin Roof, and Ben-Hur for example. Not to mention all the modern classics yet to come out. Such as The Godfather series, Taxi Driver, Raging Bull, Heat, and Speed for example. Not to mention the number of franchises that haven't come out. Such as Star Trek, Indiana Jones, Pirates of the Carribean, the remiander of the Die Hard movies, and the Rocky movies. And this doesn't include thr Disney animated classics or the other MGM movies.

[Geoff D]

I'm not sure that listing Disnee stuff that will never be released on UHD is actually helping our argument but yes, there's still plenty of catalogue goodies that the other studios have left and if they end up licensing ever more mid-range catalogue stuff to indies for UHD (oh, sweet irony) then the studios won't mind that either, it's money for nothing while they continue to release new movies on the format, something which even Disnee aren't giving up on yet.

But apparently all the majors are going to stop producing Blu-rays within the next 12 months, you heard it here first folks!

[cgpublic]

Originally Posted by fighthefutureofhd

There is so much that is wrong with that post, it would take days to unpack and discuss it all.

Let's face it, if you had a reply of substance, you would state it, but obviously based on the following as your big argument, you do not.

Originally Posted by fighthefutureofhd

So, I will focus on thing and that is the fact that the major studios have spent their wad already. Uncatagorically untrue. The major studios have just scratched the surface in terms of great movies to put out on UHD. There are all the classic movies from back in the day. Such as Gone With the Wind, Cat on a Hot Tin Roof, and Ben-Hur for example. Not to mention all the modern classics yet to come out. Such as The Godfather series, Taxi Driver, Raging Bull, Heat, and Speed for example. Not to mention the number of franchises that haven't come out. Such as Star Trek, Indiana Jones, Pirates of the Carribean, the remiander of the Die Hard movies, and the Rocky movies. And this doesn't include thr Disney animated classics or the other MGM movies.

It's not a question of your favorite movies that you would like to see on UHD. It is a question of the major catalog franchises that will motivate consumers to brick and mortar stores and buy. Are you seriously comparing the above to Star Wars, Marvel, Pixar, GOT and LOTR from a present-day UHD sales and related financial perspective?

Here's the thing. Do you know what the spend forecast is for 2021 streaming according to the Consumer Technology Association as reported by THR for today's CES?

$112B, as billions. One hundred and twelve billion dollars.

Do you know what the UHD spend forecast is for 2021?

Trust me when I tell you, you don't want to know.

[Geoff D]

Still, it'd be a hoot if Criterion are going to be releasing their first UHD this year, region coding and all, as we'd both be proven utterly wrong aboot their motivations. But no-one is arguing that digital is not the future, or indeed the present, and physical media's user base is dwindling fast. We get it, but that's not what this immediate discussion is about yet you still find a way to shoehorn "the end is nigh" into every post.

Disc can and will co-exist in its own little nook as long as there are people to buy it and the labels are doing all the tricks of the trade to entice people to get it sooner rather than later and cover those break even costs. Exclusive slipcovers, booklets, other added tat, steelbooks, even UHD itself, most of which is all rather vulgar in the eyes of Mulvaney and co, but it's actually working because indie BD has never been in a healthier place. One could argue that their rise means the decline of interest from the major studios and that's very true, however as long as the studios are making money from new releases on disc (and they are, it's always been the case that the money is mainly made on new releases rather than catalogue) then they'll be happy to let the situation continue rather than pulling the plug.

In the case of Fanny Lye, just 1000 will be needed to break even and as for the price, are you seriously saying that it's too high compared to what Criterion regularly charge for just a regular 1080p disc of a similarly esoteric piece of work? If Criterion charged that much for their first UHD - and they probably will - some people in here still couldn't pre-order it fast enough and that's the secret as to why UHD isn't actually dead yet, despite everything that's stacked against it: some studios have realised that the "premium" approach pays dividends. Essentially they're taking the Criterion model for a test drive and are zooming ahead of them in some respects, there is nothing special about Criterion any more apart from the name and I don't even mean that in relation to them not adopting UHD. Restoration, compression, extras, packaging, there's nothing they can do that others haven't already equalled or bettered.

[reanimator]

I've sometimes felt the criticism directed at Criterion's BD compression was a bit overblown -- but then again, I haven't viewed a Criterion BD in some time. Then I watched THE LADY EVE recently, and my UHD-conditioned eyes were horrified at the craptacular image. Seriously, the compression on that Criterion disc is truly heinous.

As for all the rest -- I've been hearing since 2015 that 4KBD would die a fast and early death. Guess what? We're in 2021, 4KBD is still here, and to date I have amassed something like 500 titles on the format. This is not D-VHS. This is not HD-DVD. 4KBD has been adopted at a much higher rate than 3D, and is still growing whereas 3D is sadly all but dead. TENET is one of few new releases on the 4K format this year, and its numbers were staggering: 46% UHD market-share in Week 1, and still holding an impressive 26% in Week 3.

All of us are well-aware we live in a streaming world, and no one argues we're seeing the "last hurrah" of physical discs. But it's also hard to argue that 2020 was an exceptional year for UHD disc, with every indication 2021 will be even better -- and I'm certain we've still got many great years ahead.

That Criterion is unwilling to release on the best home-video format ever devised is indeed unfortunate -- but thankfully others are stepping-up to fill that void. Maybe Criterion doesn't want that niche-money, but Blue Underground sure as hell does. Has anyone else viewed VIGILANTE from Blue Underground? I don't know if any Criterion disc has ever looked that good.

[I KEEL YOU]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

It's not Criterion who region lock their discs, it's whatever is demanded by the rights holder, always has been

100% of Criterion's blu ray discs are region locked.
There is no way of hell that 100% of the rights holders for Criterion releases have demanded that their discs are region locked, disc by disc. Hell, some of their releases are even public domain and still region locked.

Also, the discs that they release in UK (region B) are still region A locked for their US release.

It's Criterion who have decided to region lock all their discs by default to stay on the safe side. Some of their releases could definitely been region free without any issues for Criterion.

[Quimera_Cult]

Originally Posted by I KEEL YOU

100% of Criterion's blu ray discs are region locked.

Wrong.

[ShellOilJunior]

Originally Posted by Quimera_Cult

Wrong.

Correct. I believe Ingmar Bergman's Cinema is region free. There may be a few others.

[fighthefutureofhd]

Originally Posted by Eny-

Exactly. The UHD/BD do work because BD is HD and the default option when no UHD is available. The DVD on the other-hand, I haven't watched one since the mid-2000s and at this point if something is SD I just ignore it.

I hated BD/DVD combos but now I hate when a UHD isnt a combo package with the BD.

Originally Posted by cgpublic

Let's face it, if you had a reply of substance, you would state it, but obviously based on the following as your big argument, you do not.

Oh, but I do. The problem is it would take a lot of time and space on here to go into it. And I've got better things to do.

Originally Posted by cgpublic

It's not a question of your favorite movies that you would like to see on UHD. It is a question of the major catalog franchises that will motivate consumers to brick and mortar stores and buy. Are you seriously comparing the above to Star Wars, Marvel, Pixar, GOT and LOTR from a present-day UHD sales and related financial perspective?

Here's the thing. Do you know what the spend forecast is for 2021 streaming according to the Consumer Technology Association as reported by THR for today's CES?

$112B, as billions. One hundred and twelve billion dollars.

Do you know what the UHD spend forecast is for 2021?

Trust me when I tell you, you don't want to know.

I wasn't talking about my favorite movies. In fact, none of the movies I mentioned are favorites of mine. I like them a lot, but they're not faves of mine. Pretty much all of the movies are big franchise or catalog movies. Movies that sell well in theaters and on home video. I did not mention my personal favorites so that my argument could not be denied or dismissed. Yet, you managed to find a way. I think you were trying to read between the lines, only there's nothing there to read.

[professorwho]

Originally Posted by ShellOilJunior

Correct. I believe Ingmar Bergman's Cinema is region free. There may be a few others.

Indeed. Per Criterion;

Come and See - regions A/B
The Complete Films of Agnès Varda - regions A/B/C
Ingmar Bergman’s Cinema - regions A/B/C
The Irishman - regions A/B/C
Marriage Story - regions A/B/C
Roma (2018) - regions A/B/C
War and Peace - regions A/B

Note that for War and Peace, it seems that the second pressing is Region A/B. I have a first pressing, and it is Region A locked.

[jardel]

Originally Posted by cgpublic

Criterion doesn't need an excuse. One could successfully argue that UHD is a failed platform, aesthetically (filmmakers believe HDR alters their intent), technically (the various implementations of HDR introduces too high a degree of variability in image), and financially (less than 5% of physical media sales). It's that simple.

Here's another simple truth. What matters for a Criterion title, i.e., the overwhelming majority of films which Criterion releases, is the quality of the restoration, not the delivery platform.

A 4K television upscales the image to 4K, so there is no need to futz around with HDR and listen to countless complaints about how the film never looked like this, the director would never approve this, etc.

Are there a handful of Criterion titles that could benefit from a UHD disc? Absolutely.

Are these handful of Criterion titles worth the risk to the Criterion installed base? Absolutely not.

Be thankful Criterion is still pressing Blu-rays in 2021, as we will soon learn from major players. That's the big question in 2021, not UHD.

You are correct that anyone can release a UHD disc. In the case of Pull Back Camera, the list price is $59.99.

That's right, $60, for the UHD of Fanny Lye Delivered, and we're not even counting shipping. I'd hate to say someone is looking like a clown all right, and take a guess, it's not Criterion.

Wish them the best, and I'm sure it's going to be discounted, but count me out.

I've made the decision that I'm not going to be spending what companies have been asking for fancy packaging and a UHD disc in 2021 unless it's a must-have, and guess what, there's not much left, if anything.

After all, the studios are more or less spent with the big releases. Star Wars. MCU. LOTR. Kubrick. There's one or two catalog opportunities still left, but let's face it, nothing along the lines of the above. Bond has been streaming in UHD for free, what do you think they're going to get for a disc now?

No studio or company is transitioning their entire release schedule to UHD, which is more or less what Criterion needs to consider given that many of their customers do in fact buy every Criterion release.

And for good reason. It's called bankruptcy.

Excellent explanation. I could not agree more. Every day I thank almighty lord for Criterion are still releasing in BD/DVD so many great films.

[The Coconut God]

The problem is that Criterion is not just a label, but a curated collection. It is understandable that they want to maintain the same level of quality throughout. Less than two years after they released their first HD title, all of their new releases were coming out on Blu ray, with a good chunk of upgrades on the side. With 4k, that simply wouldn't be possible. Their options would be rather limited. They could:

A. Release high profile, bankable titles, many of which already have or are in the process of getting new 4k masters. Stuff by Kubrick, Lynch, Anderson, del Toro and other well known directors, as well as individual titles with preexisting fanbases, like The Silence of the Lambs or The Princess Bride, or hot new releases like Parasite.

This may sound like an obvious choice - provided they could get the rights to begin with - but could actually prove detrimental to the collection as a whole.

These "hot" titles are important for sure. I like to call them "gateway" releases, because they help introduce new fans to the collection (I discovered Criterion through Life Aquatic and Pan's Labyrinth myself). But ultimately most of them are popular enough that anyone could have released them. Now that I know Criterion better, it's the more obscure, international cinema that I truly value them for.

If they were to release their most popular titles in 4k, I fear (and perhaps they do too) that would create a "higher tier" of films within the collection which would become divorced them from the "lesser" Blu ray releases, just like most of their DvD catalogue is currently ignored by new fans.

You could argue that releasing the gateway titles in lower quality also lessens their effectiveness, but I would partially disagree. First of all, they are still special editions, and many will still buy them as such (alongside those who don't plan to make the jump to 4k). Second of all, they will still be visible on the market, and may incite curiosities based on the packaging alone, even if people don't buy them.

In a related note, well-known titles are also the least dependent on Criterion for their 4k releases. Some of them were released already, which is part of the reason this thread exists in the first place. Perhaps that's just my international customer mentality, but if stuff like Crash and The Elephant Man already exists in UHD, what is even the point of badgering Criterion about them? Many of us would just go for the cheaper option anyway. Which brings us to:

B. Release 4k titles randomly, based on what's available.

I think this would also run the risk of diluting the perceived quality level of the collection. If Criterion released The Elephant Man and Crash on 4k, people would start asking why not Mulholland Dr. and Videodrome, or other titles that the public might deem more worthy.

Should Criterion fail to secure the rights for the better or more popular titles, this would lead to a haphazard collection where "lesser" films get more impressive releases simply because they were easier to obtain.

C. Only release newer films in 4k.

In spite of what I said above, I think this was a missed opportunity. Roma, Parasite, Marriage Story, The Irishman and especially Portrait of a Lady on Fire would have been natural UHD releases, since that is after all the best format in which they could be seen in cinemas and through streaming. They could have even presented the UHD bonus disk as a quirk, like the odorama cards in Polyester.

In any case, 4k for new releases only would have raised fewer expectations from them in term of restorations. But perhaps they didn't want to place digital films on a pedestal, or they simply couldn't make a deal for them.



Finally, a potential solution would be to introduce a separate line specifically for UHD releases, sort of like the Eclipse series, but at the other end of the PQ scale. Rather than aiming to upgrade the entire collection, or haphazardly focusing on popular or readily available titles, the series would include only the most visually striking, tactile and textured titles Criterion has to offer.

Some films I would include here are: Marketa Lazarova, Paris, Texas, Picnic at Hanging Rock, Black Narcissus, Y Tu Mama Tambien, Il Sorpasso, L'Avventura, Walkabout, Barry Lyndon (tough this one probably has a chance even outside the collection). Even some less appreciated, but still visually stunning or colorful films, such as The Lure, Desert Hearts, Canoa, A Shameful Memory and It's a Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad World would be good candidates.

[dcx4610]

Parasite was the big one for me.

When you have a movie on UHD and then you release a Blu-ray version, I don't care if you are Criterion, it's a downgrade.

Yes, they nail it with packaging and special features but ultimately, it's the movie quality that matters the most to me and 99% of time, I'm going to favor the UHD over a Blu-ray unless it's completely botched.

Parasite should have been their first UHD release. It was a big get for them and while I know the Criterion diehards were excited, it felt like they were behind the times and the first time they didn't have a definitive release.

[Warm Gun]

Originally Posted by dcx4610

Parasite was the big one for me.

When you have a movie on UHD and then you release a Blu-ray version, I don't care if you are Criterion, it's a downgrade.

Yes, they nail it with packaging and special features but ultimately, it's the movie quality that matters the most to me and 99% of time, I'm going to favor the UHD over a Blu-ray unless it's completely botched.

Parasite should have been their first UHD release. It was a big get for them and while I know the Criterion diehards were excited, it felt like they were behind the times and the first time they didn't have a definitive release.

I seldom watch their extras and never read their essays. So yeah, if I have to pay almost twice as much for the better packaged but worse looking disc, I will always pick the superior UHD transfer.

[brainofj72]

Honestly, is their packaging really even that great most of the time these days? Unless it's a special release (which usually means a DigiPak), it's a just Scanavo with a booklet or a poster. Not even close to, say, a nice Vinegar Syndrome slipcover (let alone a package like The Beastmaster) or an Arrow LE.