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Old 11-03-2019, 03:50 PM   #441
ROSS.T.G. ROSS.T.G. is offline
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I can't believe a thread dedicated to Capras life affirming timeless masterpiece on UHD; has been reduced to the discussion of poo air...wait...I can atchually believe it.
Regularity is very important.
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Old 11-03-2019, 03:59 PM   #442
Geoff D Geoff D is offline
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And sadly, any which way you slice it, it fits.
You sell yourself short, sir!
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Old 11-03-2019, 04:08 PM   #443
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Regularity is very important.
Fibre is the key.
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Old 11-03-2019, 04:15 PM   #444
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Fibre is the key.
And slipcovers contain fibre, so. . . . problem solved on all fronts.
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Old 11-03-2019, 04:22 PM   #445
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And slipcovers contain fibre, so. . . . problem solved on all fronts.
Slipcovers for breakfast!
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Old 11-03-2019, 06:30 PM   #446
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Originally Posted by SCLee View Post
You can't please everyone! I imagine a lot of people will be annoyed the UK set doesn't come with the colour version.
Not complaining, just stating my personal preference. I'm grateful they even put out a remastered Blu-ray at all, since most studios don't.
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Old 11-03-2019, 09:03 PM   #447
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Mr. Harris says it doesn't look like nitrate prints because of the blacks overpowering the grays. He says the gray scale was better on the old blu. I am disappointed to hear this.
Has Robert Harris done any 4K HDR restorations? I really think the old IAWL looked too soft in terms of light and dark.
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Old 11-03-2019, 09:37 PM   #448
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Originally Posted by moviebuff75 View Post
Mr. Harris says it doesn't look like nitrate prints because of the blacks overpowering the grays. He says the gray scale was better on the old blu. I am disappointed to hear this.
And how many nitrate prints are left that won't burst into flames at the merest whiff of air? This is 4K HDR, not a nitrate print. And it looks amazing.
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Old 11-03-2019, 09:43 PM   #449
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It is too dark. It doesn't look like it should. Gray scale has been hampered by the black crush.
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Old 11-03-2019, 09:52 PM   #450
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Originally Posted by moviebuff75 View Post
It is too dark. It doesn't look like it should. Gray scale has been hampered by the black crush.
You've seen it yourself then?
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Old 11-03-2019, 09:53 PM   #451
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It is too dark. It doesn't look like it should. Gray scale has been hampered by the black crush.
What's your set up?
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Old 11-04-2019, 12:36 AM   #452
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And how many nitrate prints are left that won't burst into flames at the merest whiff of air? This is 4K HDR, not a nitrate print. And it looks amazing.
I watched the feature on the restoration this morning. They said they used the deteriorating negative for all reels except one, where they used a combination of two first generation prints for one reel and to cover damaged bits of the negative reels where necessary (so a bit more grain in those first gen prints images). I assume they also made a new safety print if the negative and these first gen prints are in that sort of shape (shrunken and damaged and missing pieces).

If you ever see a (often subterranean) depository of nitrate prints, first off it's cold (to retard the decay, also prevent combustion of course). But second of all, there so many to restore, it's a daunting task to even think about what to do next, or at all. Many will sit stored for a long time, but thankfully the speed of the process has been accelerating year to year with huge leaps in the tech needed to get the job done right (or partially, or at all if the negative or print is too far gone). Some films might never achieve any quality or definition beyond even what a DVD might get you, just because the prints are too far along (either in age and/or generations of prints).

Quote:
Originally Posted by moviebuff75 View Post
It is too dark. It doesn't look like it should. Gray scale has been hampered by the black crush.
That said, this is a big-name film, curated over the years, and in this feature it DOES sound like they had the right motives in place, saying several times that they wished replicate the film print experience for the 4K version.

I skipped through the film a bit looking for excess of darkness/black crush, but I have to watch the whole thing before saying I could agree or disagree with saying this scan is too dark (maybe by tomorrow I will have time). I know I've seen a film print of this movie, but not this particular restoration. It's tricky since it's Capra (who was more diligent about lighting and contrast and effect of his films that other directors often were), and so not necessarily like other clean, black and white (restored) films that I have seen, i.e. not sure a comparison with those would be useful or not. Seems like something would have to be decided in and of itself (this film, this scan).

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Old 11-04-2019, 12:59 AM   #453
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoff D View Post
And how many nitrate prints are left that won't burst into flames at the merest whiff of air? This is 4K HDR, not a nitrate print. And it looks amazing.
What is your opinion about the transfer? Can you give a quick review?
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Old 11-04-2019, 01:09 AM   #454
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crackedknee View Post
I watched the feature on the restoration this morning. They said they used the deteriorating negative for all reels except one, where they used a combination of two first generation prints for one reel and to cover damaged bits of the negative reels where necessary (so a bit more grain in those first gen prints images). I assume they also made a new safety print if the negative and these first gen prints are in that sort of shape (shrunken and damaged and missing pieces).

If you ever see a (often subterranean) depository of nitrate prints, first off it's cold (to retard the decay, also prevent combustion of course). But second of all, there so many to restore, it's a daunting task to even think about what to do next, or at all. Many will sit stored for a long time, but thankfully the speed of the process has been accelerating year to year with huge leaps in the tech needed to get the job done right (or partially, or at all if the negative or print is too far gone). Some films might never achieve any quality or definition beyond even what a DVD might get you, just because the prints are too far along (either in age and/or generations of prints).
I know they've got the negative but I don't use the word "print" in the colloquial sense of it being whatever the transfer was struck from, I literally mean a release print and there's very little chance of any of us mere mortals being able to see one, never mind anything higher up the chain. Does that mean a film shouldn't strive to emulate its original viewing format? Yes and no, because even the prints varied from batch to batch, reel to reel, movie house to movie house, and in the restoration featurette they say the mission was to get it looking as good as it could with this state of the art tech without completely denying its filmic heritage and for me, having just spun the 4K disc, it's a thing of sheer beauty. If RAH doesn't like it then that's fine, he can make do with the old Blu-ray and so can everyone else who hangs on his every word.
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Old 11-04-2019, 01:45 AM   #455
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I still kept the 4K (obviously!) but I have to have the colourised version too, plus it has different extras.
The colorized Blu-ray has no extras, at least on my copy.
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Old 11-04-2019, 01:55 AM   #456
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoff D View Post
I know they've got the negative but I don't use the word "print" in the colloquial sense of it being whatever the transfer was struck from, I literally mean a release print and there's very little chance of any of us mere mortals being able to see one, never mind anything higher up the chain.
There is a yearly nitrate film festival in Rochester, New York at the George Eastman House that is one of less than 10 theaters in the world I believe that can show nitrate prints. While nitrate has stunning color and contrast (so I have heard), there are obvious safety issues with showing something so incredibly flammable so there are only a handful of theaters with the correct equipment, safety features and proper training in place to do so safely. I hope to go next year to see them for myself as well as get a tour of the film vault.

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Old 11-04-2019, 02:08 AM   #457
Geoff D Geoff D is offline
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Originally Posted by singhcr View Post
There is a yearly nitrate film festival in Rochester, New York at the George Eastman House that is one of less than 10 theaters in the world I believe that can show nitrate prints. While nitrate has stunning color and contrast (so I have heard), there are obvious safety issues with showing something so incredibly flammable so there are only a handful of theaters with the correct equipment, safety features and proper training in place to do so safely. I hope to go next year to see them for myself as well as get a tour of the film vault.
Yes, they store them at the Louis B. Mayer Conservation Centre. Being an Amerikaner you're in a better position than most to be able to even get the opportunity to see such things up close and personal. But the point still remains that a 4K disc is not a print and if people want to swerve this disc on that basis then go right ahead, in the meantime any sane person will revel in it.
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Old 11-04-2019, 02:11 AM   #458
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What's your set up?
It looks like way on my set up. Other movies (color and b&w) look good on my set so why change it for just one.
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Old 11-04-2019, 02:27 AM   #459
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It's a Wonderful Life (1946) review. It's hard to put something like this into words when it looks as magical as it does, these collections of consonants and vowels just won't do it justice. But it's worth stating first that this is a highly variable source, anyone who's watched the restoration featurette would be able to parrot that and yet anyone who knows about older film practices will know that there's also a whole heap of opticals in this film for the fades, wipes, freeze frames and dissolves, which even a negative in the most pristine condition would still succumb to if it's been conformed with the optical sections and not cut to A-B rolls. Paramount have clearly eased up on the grain in these numerous moments which is why several sections have a slightly 'harder' and more processed look to them but it rarely becomes anything like a distraction, it just becomes part of the rhythm of the film (although the usage of opticals eases up in the second half of the picture).

The actual replacement sections taken from the fine grain masters are more readily apparent, they really do look a bit rougher around the edges, literally, and when the opticals occur within these sections they drop even further in quality because they're yet another generation removed from the original (the fine grains having been minted from the conformed OG negative, essentially a B&W version of an interpositive). But these interludes are brief, only for a few minutes at a time, and I thought myself exceedingly clever that I spotted the switcheroo when George meets his brother and his new wife and the train station, where they hid the transition from neg to fine grain in a wipe as someone walks in front of them. I had to rewind it a couple of times to make sure, thinking "those sly bar stewards", and then I watched the restoration featurette afterwards where they actually call it out, so now everyone knows and I don't look so clever no more! It's also got other filmmaking conventions of the time to factor in, like the diffusion used to shoot many of Donna Reed's close-ups and the more romantic two-shots with her and Jimmy Stewart.

If it sounds like I'm preparing people for the worst then that mightn't be far from the truth, but I'm just trying to get across the facts of filmmaking life which affect this movie just as they have done for thousands upon thousands of other movies. Those aspects are what they are, but when we get the cherry OG neg the image springs into life and takes on a remarkably crisp demeanour without ever looking overcooked and the grain is pin-sharp with it. It makes those aforementioned diffused shots of Donna Reed look amazing because you get this gorgeous silky sheen with this incredibly fine grain over the top of it and the effect is almost three-dimensional at times, not that the rest of the first-gen material is any slouch either! The sense of texture and detail is so strong you feel like you could reach out and touch them.

The HDR is restrained but in the best possible way, they've used it very subtly and tastefully to resolve more highlights in the usual places (brighter speculars and reflections, windows facing outside, lights, the snow in Bedford Falls, that sort of thing) and, as they say in the restoration featurette, the HDR is what allows them to not have to go bonkers with the contrast in order to make the bright parts brighter and the dark parts darker. Ah yes, the dark parts. It's worth acknowledging that the shadows do look somewhat compressed, I don't mean in the "encoding" sense but in that they're plenty dark but there's just not a lot of shadow information contained therein.

However, the overall image itself is not "too dark" in any conventional sense as there's a healthy APL at play that's higher than the B&W remastered Blu (when viewed at 140 nits peak), it's just that the shadows have been rolled off a bit, rightly or wrongly, and I won't make any historical claims as to what they should look like. All I can do is report what this 4K disc looks like and when it's on-song it's just beautiful to witness, as sacri-licious as it is. Compression is spot-on, even during the heavy snowfall in the final reels, and it's been mastered with BT.2020 primaries rather than P3, as indicated by the metadata reader on the Panasonic UB820 player.
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Old 11-04-2019, 02:34 AM   #460
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Here's what I posted over on the HTF thread:

Quote:
I have to say the darkness in the captures posted so far does give me pause. Finding the thread here at least convinced me I wasn't just seeing something from UHD captures posted online and then viewing on a non HDR monitor.
As someone who is still not 4K capable but actively keeps up with the technology and has been merely waiting to jump on when prices come down a bit/panels get better I was intending on purchasing this release day one and at least enjoying the remastered BD disc. Then it transpired that one could not do this. Then I found the UK release supposedly will have both so I was going to wait for that and now I see this.

IAWL is one of those titles where I already hated the older BD master so much that I yearly pull out the best video version pre-4K and watch it as it is a perfect representation of the prints that still play in arthouses as it's from the same source right down to some of the same damage marks. (I think it's a fine grain source of some type IIRC) Within the Laserdisc parameters the old Criterion CAV boxset LD release is prefect and has none of the contrast or brightness issues of the later Republic releases nor do I have to deal with the noise reduction or smooth look of the 2006 DVD/Blu-ray release. (Of course it probably helps that i have a great player and hdcrt combo to make LDs shine-and they can even look pretty good on my plasma.) Audiowise the best release is the later Republic discs as they have a digital audio track.

I was astonished Paramount were going back to the negative to do this work as there hasn't really been anything done in regards to the film it seems for years. I had gotten so desperate for other versions I went and tracked down all three Republic LD releases just to check them.
Robert, do your references look like the prints that have played in theaters for the past few decades? That's the only version I've seen on the big screen. It seems most of the other video releases were based from those prints and that this 4K version was the first to use the negative as a source. I will agree it does seem like the grayscale is off on this new version but I have never gotten to see any original elements personally.
So basically from my own perspective the posted captures so far do appear dark where they should not be and it is possible that this was a mastering error as some in the HTF thread showed with adjustments the 4K could be made to look like the older BD.
Personally I felt the old master was a tad bright in spots and didn't get the grayscale just right but my references are only the VHS, LD, DVD releases and print screenings. The prints that still occasionally make the rounds are ones based off of a fine grain master IIRC and only the Criterion CAV box nails that look perfectly as it is from the exact same source. That's why it's the version I run every year at Xmas.

RAH has said he's going to check out the new remastered 1080p disc to see if it looks different. I do think the new 4K looks to be a remarkable improvement in almost every other way and I was going to just get the UK release with both 4K and proper new 1080p discs.


On the audio side has anyone noticed it being much better than the old super puny and popping lossy audio track? To date the best sounding releases I have are the Republic 45th/50th anniv. LD releases.


If only this could have been straight ahead and problem free like the Sony Capra restorations...oh wait those haven't come to UHD yet...Pretty please Sony!!!!!
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