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Old 04-07-2021, 03:37 AM   #1
jeffm2016 jeffm2016 is offline
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Default Blu-ray audio rates overkill?

From a tech standpoint is the quality of a high end lossless audio on a good bluray overkill? Like if I have a decent full surround sound system like a def tech or klipsch decked out with all the speakers and killer receiver etc. would it fully use it all or would it give the same performance at half.

Im better with video technology than audio so im not qualified to figure this hypothetical out and just curious of how it fairs relativity compared to performance or where it could go if more was somehow possible.
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Old 04-07-2021, 03:46 AM   #2
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That set up you're describing won't even come close to getting everything out of a good lossless track. You can go into six figures on a setup and still be hearing new things/getting improved performance. But if you care more about video than audio (I'm the opposite) I'm sure you'll enjoy any well thought out system.
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Old 04-07-2021, 03:33 PM   #3
Wendell R. Breland Wendell R. Breland is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffm2016 View Post
From a tech standpoint is the quality of a high end lossless audio on a good bluray overkill?
Why would it be overkill?
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Old 04-07-2021, 03:56 PM   #4
LexInHD LexInHD is offline
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It depends on your point of view. For most people, it's overkill and of no worth, as they don't have audio beyond the TV speakers or a low-end soundbar that can't handle lossless audio. Much like DVD, Blu-Ray was intended to push people to buy (TVs, A/V receivers and speakers, Home-Theater-In-A-Box sets) home theater gear, but it never happened beyond the brief hand-off from DVD during the early days of the format, so only the enthusiasts and people willing to spend money have benefited from it.
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Old 04-07-2021, 04:23 PM   #5
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I would be curious to do blind tests and see how many people were able to pick out lossless audio from mildly compressed lossy.

But no, it's not overkill on Blu-ray Disc, because you have 50-100gb to play with. It can easily store lossless audio. There's basically no reason not to include it for the audio track of a main feature.

LPCM 5.1 or higher would arguably be overkill.
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Old 04-07-2021, 04:33 PM   #6
jeffm2016 jeffm2016 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland View Post
Why would it be overkill?
For example. Dvd maxes out at 55 inches, although you can start to see the visual improvements in bluray at 55 inches you really start to notice it at 65 inches. 4k uhd without HDR, you might see a small amount if improvement in detail at 55 inches compared to bluray but not much if at all. 65 inches youíll start to notice it over bluray but it will really start to shine at around 75 inches where blurays limits start to hit.

Hypothetically, you could say bluray is overkill at 45 (give or take) inches visually, since you really wont see the extra detail unless your sitting inordinately close. 4k uhd only you probably would hit overkill around 60 inches.

Using this as a metaphor for audio (no sure if youd measure it in mbps or what as an equivalent to inches on a screen to format as i presented but in audio) at what point would someone like me, who is willing to buy a nice system (as i stated above)but not crack the bank ...or simply at what poiny would I just get nothing more out of the audio giving equipment limitations.

Overkill doesnt intend to be critical of an audio format or the amount of potential in it..but in relation to what is actually used by the equipment.

Hope that made sense...if you wanted an example more concrete how much more do I get out of bluray audio than say amazons prime best downloads giving one is using a nice full system that isnt ďhigh endĒ ( although id prefer a technical answer as well, curious about how to measure. I have been want to get into the audio side more and the understanding would help.
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Old 04-07-2021, 07:05 PM   #7
alchav21 alchav21 is offline
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I say it's all Subjective, both Video and Audio what is good for some people might be terrible to others. Get the best equipment for your budget, if that is enough and it pleases you then you are done. If not then you have to plan and budget for the upgrades.
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Old 04-07-2021, 10:21 PM   #8
jeffm2016 jeffm2016 is offline
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I appreciate you taking to time to answer.

However what im asking is more an intellectual interest than a practical one. Im not looking to maximize the data just realistically how much of the data one uses. Not sure how else to ask or reiterate.
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Old 04-08-2021, 03:47 PM   #9
Wendell R. Breland Wendell R. Breland is offline
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Many home theater enthusiast want the best quality available and BD, UHD BD and Kaleidescape provides that. Many people seem to be quite satisfied ≤ 128 Kbps MP3 but some of us prefer better. We pay for our Pandora because the data rates are higher than the add version and it is acceptable at background levels. My rips of my CD's are FLAC for home use and 320 Kbps for auto use.
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Old 04-08-2021, 04:06 PM   #10
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Is it too much of a good thing? maybe

but, so what? ...

Cds sound right to me. DTS MA sounds right. SACD sounds right.

Maybe they have capabilities only my dog can hear but most of the time that's a non issue. (Esp because I don't have a dog.)

In Audio generally overkill is considered a good thing.
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Old 04-08-2021, 05:33 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffm2016 View Post
From a tech standpoint is the quality of a high end lossless audio on a good bluray overkill? Like if I have a decent full surround sound system like a def tech or klipsch decked out with all the speakers and killer receiver etc. would it fully use it all or would it give the same performance at half.

Im better with video technology than audio so im not qualified to figure this hypothetical out and just curious of how it fairs relativity compared to performance or where it could go if more was somehow possible.
You donít need to spend thousands on speakers, but you do need to be able to critique speaker audio reproduction a bit to the point that you recognize audio sounds coming from speakers are realistic sounding without distortion or colorization. From listening to people speaking, fire engines racing to a fire, a drummer doing a fantastic drum solo, orchestra like being in front of you, all can make movie that much more than simply looking great on a 4K display. Just watching Stars Wars can come alive compared to a setup that canít present audio decently.

As said def tech and klipsch are not great speakers, they both lack audio accuracy to sound great, but you wonít know until you have auditioned numerous speakers setups and observed how they work in a cohesive in various size rooms.

Itís a cool learning experience if you got the opportunity to experience this where you live with various dealers.
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Old 04-08-2021, 05:34 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alchav21 View Post
I say it's all Subjective, both Video and Audio what is good for some people might be terrible to others. Get the best equipment for your budget, if that is enough and it pleases you then you are done. If not then you have to plan and budget for the upgrades.
Says the guy only using wireless surround sound headphones.
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Old 04-08-2021, 06:30 PM   #13
crutzulee crutzulee is offline
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I've used the same mains for the past 30 years. With each new format, I've always sourced out timbrally matched sets as I've added channels to my setup. In that time, I've upgraded my amp 5 times-twice in the last year and a half.
While the old adage about garbage in and garbage out applies, I can definitely pick out a lossless track from a compressed one and would not characterize myself as an audiophile.
I've noticed it more with my last two receivers (ONKYO and now DENON). It never ceases to amaze my family that I'm always right when I stop a movie because I can tell that the audio is compressed either because there is no lossless track or because the "core" track has been selected.
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Old 04-08-2021, 09:21 PM   #14
bhampton bhampton is online now
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Clearly you are an audiophile. (by my own definition.)

My definition is someone who actively enjoys audio.
(Kind of like pays attention to it)

You look for the better soundtrack on discs and you have pardigm speakers so.... I say you are in.

Last edited by bhampton; 04-08-2021 at 09:36 PM.
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Old 04-08-2021, 10:47 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland View Post
Many home theater enthusiast want the best quality available and BD, UHD BD and Kaleidescape provides that. Many people seem to be quite satisfied ≤ 128 Kbps MP3 but some of us prefer better. We pay for our Pandora because the data rates are higher than the add version and it is acceptable at background levels. My rips of my CD's are FLAC for home use and 320 Kbps for auto use.
With all of the high end A/V equipment in my home theater, It's rare that I listen to music from it. My home theater is used 100 % for movies only. Whenever I listen to my music it's from my phone through earbuds when I'm outdoors doing yardwork, while I'm driving using bluetooth or when I'm just sitting on the porch. Besides I don't necessarily need to hear my music in multi-channel high resolution to enjoy it because, 90 percent of the music (old and new) is not recorded nor available in HD 5.1 on Blu-ray Audio, SACD and DVD-Audio formats anyway, and never will. They're a niche market! The music is available only in either CD or mp3 quality.

Last edited by slimdude; 04-09-2021 at 02:13 AM.
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Old 04-09-2021, 12:59 AM   #16
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A lot of good points shared so far, but it seems that the OP might have been trying to get a feel for at what point can one tell the difference between lossless and lossy audio, be it within varying levels of gear or bitrates. You donít need to spend a ton of money to put together a well calibrated system that will highlight the difference, but you do need to have the capacity to hear it as mentioned previously. Some people, regardless of the system, canít discern a difference. Others can pick it up right away on a $1000 setup. I am not sure what retailers you have in your area, but it wouldnít be a bad idea to grab a dvd and a blu ray of the same movie and check it out for yourself. Like John, I am not a big fan of Klipsch or Def Tech, but you have a number of people who are that claim to be able to tell a difference.

To answer the question of if it is overkill or not, like others who have answered before, that answer would be ďHell No.Ē I have been a fan of audio for 35 years, but I donít get hung up on bitrates. I just trust my ears and brain.

Like Wendell said, Blu-ray, UHD, and the Kaleidescape offer the best delivery methods for both audio and video, so a number of us will continue to support them. If something else comes out down the road to raise the ante by giving a better experience, you will see this same group pulling out their credit cards as early adopters.

Last edited by gotmule; 04-09-2021 at 01:05 AM.
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Old 04-09-2021, 07:31 AM   #17
nissling nissling is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffm2016 View Post
Dvd maxes out at 55 inches, although you can start to see the visual improvements in bluray at 55 inches you really start to notice it at 65 inches.
Funny thing I have a Sony BVM-A14 in my studio (14" HD CRT) and the improvement when going from 480/60i or 576/50i to 1080/24PsF is clear as night and day. HDCAM still looks absolutely phenomenal in a professional enviroment. So saying that the improvement from Blu-Ray starts to become visible at 55" is... Nonsense.
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Old 04-09-2021, 04:54 PM   #18
bhampton bhampton is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slimdude View Post
With all of the high end A/V equipment in my home theater, It's rare that I listen to music from it. .... Besides I don't necessarily need to hear my music in multi-channel high resolution to enjoy it because, 90 percent of the music (old and new) is not recorded nor available in HD 5.1 on Blu-ray Audio, SACD and DVD-Audio formats anyway, and never will. They're a niche market! The music is available only in either CD or mp3 quality.
As a Pink Floyd fan, I am in kind of the opposite position. Lots of music I LOVE is available in high res surround sound from Blu Ray audio.

Some examples - Dark Side of the Moon, Wish You Were Here, Atom Heart Mother (4.0), Meddle, The Division Bell, The Endless River, Delicate Sound of Thunder, Amused to Death, Live at Pompeii, Rattle That Lock, Aqualung.

Last edited by bhampton; 04-09-2021 at 05:27 PM.
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Old 04-09-2021, 06:08 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bhampton View Post
As a Pink Floyd fan, I am in kind of the opposite position. Lots of music I LOVE is available in high res surround sound from Blu Ray audio.

Some examples - Dark Side of the Moon, Wish You Were Here, Atom Heart Mother (4.0), Meddle, The Division Bell, The Endless River, Delicate Sound of Thunder, Amused to Death, Live at Pompeii, Rattle That Lock, Aqualung.
Depending on the genre of music a person like, there is only a handful of titles available in those HD music audio formats.
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Old 04-10-2021, 03:33 PM   #20
Anthony P Anthony P is offline
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I don't think the word overkill would be the right word (it has negative connotations that would not apply under these circumstances) but I get your point. For example if someone is deaf should they care for better audio? the easy answer is no, but on the other hand he could care because he watches films with others that are not deaf or he watches them attached to a bass shaker and he can feel the difference even if he can't hear it....

there are many reasons why someone might care (even though there is little/no benefit) and why someone else might not care (even if the benefit is large)

Now if we look at it objectively. I think a good analogy would be a bucket of water. It is easy to understand that if you fill the bucket you have a full bucket and if you fill it 3/4 you have a 3/4 bucket full. But what happens if the bucket has a small hole at the bottom? Let's say by the time the bucket that was full gets to where it is going it is now a bit under 1/2 full , but if you started with it 3/4 full by the time you get it there it will be a bit over 1/4 full. Maybe the difference won't be as large but there is always a benefit from starting with a bucket that is more full. For example (since you discussed video) it is why good studios will scan film at a higher resolution then is necessary for the release, quality can just be lost, not gained further down the line. So higher quality earlier on will almost always mean higher quality later on even if due to many different factors the difference might not be as great.

Also subjectively and IMHO the question does not make sense. when I first started collecting BDs I did not have a 1080p projector or 7.1 set-up (and DVD had 5.1 720p), BD3d I did not have a 3D projector and UHD BD I did not have a 4k projector or over head speakers. But time has passed and my set-up has gotten better and now I have all of that in my HT. A collection isn't just for now (no matter what media it is) but also for the future. So even if today someone has a crappy sound bar or TV speakers does it mean that it is impossible that one day he might want to watch it on a better system? I have never lived my life that way.
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