A Guide to Bipolar, Dipolar, & Direct-Radiating Monopole Surround Speakers (PART II)

[Big Daddy]

Originally Posted by razza

Awesome thread Big Daddy really informative and straight to the point, thank-you!
I have one quick question, with 2 rows of seating do you have to have a set of surround speakers for each row or are there alternatives? My second row is pretty much hard up against the back wall, with this in mind the options I've come up with are:

1. 2 sets of dipoles (or monopoles?) in line with each row.
2. 2 sets of bipoles with them being slightly behind each row (same as your setup). Although for the second row as mentioned they will be pretty close to the back wall so that may be a problem?
3. 1 set of bipoles inbetween the 2 rows (or some other location).

Ideally I'd like to go with option 3 as it's the simplest and cheapest but if it's not ideal I won't cut myself short.
My receiver doesn't support multiple surrounds so I would just be wiring them up in series if I went with that option.
I'm setting up for 7.2 so there will be back surrounds as well. That would be my next problem, either monopoles or bipoles!

Bipoles will offer you more placement flexibility than dipoles. Two sets of bipole may not be a bad idea. If you decide to use one set, option 3 is perhaps the best option.

Putting the seats against the wall is not a very good idea, but I understand that we all have to make compromises. Your biggest problem when the seats are against the wall is that the bass will be too loud and boomy. If you decide to add two rear surround speakers in addition to the side surround speakers, don't point them down. A set of bipole speakers that are facing toward the front of the room will give you a nice diffuse sound that will not be overpowering and in your face. Adjust their levels carefully so that they are approximately the same as the other speakers. If they are too loud in the back row, turn them down a little.

[razza]

Thanks Big Daddy greatly appreciated. Now just decide which bipoles to buy!

[Big Daddy]

Originally Posted by razza

Thanks Big Daddy greatly appreciated. Now just decide which bipoles to buy!

Many companies sell bipole/dipole speakers. If money is a concern, the following companies are factory direct and sell them at reasonable prices.

Home Theater Direct sells Level Two and Level Three bipole/dipole surround speakers:
http://www.htd.com/Products/level-th...THREE-Surround

Emp Tek speakers are in either black or red burl:
http://www.emptek.com/surounds.php

Crystal Acoustics Speakers can be bought from them directly or from Amazon:
http://www.crystalaudiovideo.com/Pro.../Speakers.aspx
http://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&key...l_47oi6bex3b_e

[fufanuer]

Hey Big Daddy,

Thanks for your great post about bipolar and dipole speakers. I am setting up my in-laws house for surround. I have a question about the placement of the rear dipole speakers. As you can see in the picture. The couches are pretty much right agains the wall. I know dipoles work best if the are on the sides of the listener, but given the room layout, that's not very practical. Plus, If i were to mount them on the sides, they would be a long ways away from the seating area and it seems like they would lose their effect. Can you give me some insight as to where I should place these dipoles?

Questions:
1) How far apart should they be in the back?
2) How high up the wall should they be? And should I point them down or mount them at any angle pointing in towards the seating area?

[Big Daddy]

Originally Posted by fufanuer

Hey Big Daddy,

Thanks for your great post about bipolar and dipole speakers. I am setting up my in-laws house for surround. I have a question about the placement of the rear dipole speakers. As you can see in the picture. The couches are pretty much right agains the wall. I know dipoles work best if the are on the sides of the listener, but given the room layout, that's not very practical. Plus, If i were to mount them on the sides, they would be a long ways away from the seating area and it seems like they would lose their effect. Can you give me some insight as to where I should place these dipoles?

Questions:
1) How far apart should they be in the back?
2) How high up the wall should they be? And should I point them down or mount them at any angle pointing in towards the seating area?

The speakers should be about two to three feet above your head when you are sitting down. The distance between the two rear speakers should be about four to five feet.

If you haven't purchased the speakers yet, bipole surround speakers offer a bit more flexibilty in placement as opposed to dipole surround speakers.

[fufanuer]

Thanks for your quick reply. I have already purchased the speakers. So I'm stuck for now.

So you think the speakers should be set up like in the picture below? This positioning would mean that people would be sitting in between the speakers, but people would also be sitting outside of the two speakers.

So if you were sitting on the far right side (to the right of right surround speaker), you wouldn't hear any sound coming from your right side because both speakers are on your left side. how does this make sense?

Also, should the speakers be toed in towards the listeners at all, or should they be flat against the wall?

[Big Daddy]

Originally Posted by fufanuer

Thanks for your quick reply. I have already purchased the speakers. So I'm stuck for now.

So you think the speakers should be set up like in the picture below? This positioning would mean that people would be sitting in between the speakers, but people would also be sitting outside of the two speakers.

So if you were sitting on the far right side (to the right of right surround speaker), you wouldn't hear any sound coming from your right side because both speakers are on your left side. how does this make sense?

Also, should the speakers be toed in towards the listeners at all, or should they be flat against the wall?

[Show spoiler]

The way you have arranged the room, there is no sweet spot. Your best option is to install the surround speakers on the sides so that the people sitting on the love seat and the larger sofa can benefit. Surround speakers do not have to be attached to the walls. They can be attached to the ceiling or put on speaker stands. Alternatively, you can add tow side surround and two rear surround speakers.

The surround speakers should create a diffuse sound for movies. The speakers should not be pointed toward your head. They should be directed toward the room.

In my setup, I use four side surround speakers (two on the left and two on the right) and two rear surround speakers. All six surround speakers are attached to the ceiling. The four side surround speakers are lighter and I used white angled brackets from Home Depot to attach them to the ceiling. The two rear speakers are heavy and have no provision for attaching them to the walls. I bought two old-style CRT TV ceiling mounts from Ebay for less than $10 each and used them. They are for 20 to 27 inch CRT TVs. They are the type they used in hospitals, restaurants, and commericial establishments.

[soundwave628]

While continuing my search for some budget friendly height speakers I came across these atlantic technology bipoles (not budget friendly) but in their description they said that dolby or maybe audyssey recommended bipole speakers for the height channels.
I'd never heard that before and was curious to see what people think. I was originally gonna try and go for the really cheap dayton speakers with 6.5in driver or possibly Polk Monitor 30s to better match my all Polk entry setup. But after reading that I'm really considering the Cambridge soundworks newton 205s for $199 a pair and they're even %20 off now!

[AVian]

Hi Big Daddy,

My HT setup is in an open Living Hall (15 fts X 7 fts) with the 2 shorter sides open to a dining hall & balcony. My listener's sofa is against the longer 15 fts wall :-

AV Amp: Onkyo TX-SR608
Front Speakers: JBL Venue Stadium
Subwoofer: JBL Venue Sub10
Center Speaker: Currently JBL, intend to change to Mission MH-6c
Surround Rear Speakers: Currently ARC, intend to change to Mission MH-6s

I prefer a small center & surround rear speakers with less than US$300.

Will greatly appreciate for advice on any recommended Center & Surround Rear Speakers. Thank you.

[HAMP]

Originally Posted by AVian

Hi Big Daddy,

My HT setup is in an open Living Hall (15 fts X 7 fts) with the 2 shorter sides open to a dining hall & balcony. My listener's sofa is against the longer 15 fts wall :-

AV Amp: Onkyo TX-SR608
Front Speakers: JBL Venue Stadium
Subwoofer: JBL Venue Sub10
Center Speaker: Currently JBL, intend to change to Mission MH-6c
Surround Rear Speakers: Currently ARC, intend to change to Mission MH-6s

I prefer a small center & surround rear speakers with less than US$300.

Will greatly appreciate for advice on any recommended Center & Surround Rear Speakers. Thank you.

Why do you want to change your center channel?
If you do plan to change it, do you also plan to change the left and right speakers also with the center?
or
Looking for a better match with the left and right speakers?

[Big Daddy]

Originally Posted by HAMP

Why do you want to change your center channel?
If you do plan to change it, do you also plan to change the left and right speakers also with the center?
or
Looking for a better match with the left and right speakers?

I agree with Hamp. If you plan to change the center channel speaker, make sure it is from the same line as your front left and right speakers. If you decide on JBL, they make many different speakers at different price levels.

If you have a small home theater room and your interest is mostly in movies, bipole/dipole surround speakers are preferred. Surround speakers do not have to be from the same line as the front speakers. There are too many companies that make bipole/dipole surround speakers. You need to decide how much money you want to spend and then visit a few audio dealers and listen to as many speakers in your price range as possible.

[jhan1000]

This thread is hugely informative and a great read! From reading the first page, it is recommended that in a 7.1 setup, it is more ideal to keep all speaker types the same (i.e. bipole sides / bipole rears; dipole sides / dipole rears). However, I've seen many recommend dipole / bipole sides and direct rears. Are their any advantages or disadvantages to this configuration?

I am thinking about upgrading my surround sound system to 7.1 in my less than ideal room. I will have to ceiling mount most of the surround speakers and I am 3-4 feet from the back wall. I am considering going 1) all bipole for 2) bipole on the sides and monopoles in the rears.

Any thoughts? Thanks!

[Big Daddy]

Originally Posted by jhan1000

This thread is hugely informative and a great read! From reading the first page, it is recommended that in a 7.1 setup, it is more ideal to keep all speaker types the same (i.e. bipole sides / bipole rears; dipole sides / dipole rears). However, I've seen many recommend dipole / bipole sides and direct rears. Are their any advantages or disadvantages to this configuration?

I am thinking about upgrading my surround sound system to 7.1 in my less than ideal room. I will have to ceiling mount most of the surround speakers and I am 3-4 feet from the back wall. I am considering going 1) all bipole for 2) bipole on the sides and monopoles in the rears.

Any thoughts? Thanks!

Using all bipole speakers in a 7.1 setup is always a good idea. Using two bipole side surround and two monopole rears can also work. Bipole/dipole speakers have a diffuse sound and are more appropriatee for multi-channel movies. Monopole surround speakers may be preferred by some people for multi-channel music such as SACD. THX recommends bipole/dipole surround speakers for movies.

Monopole surround speakers can have a diffuse sound when they are placed far away from where you sit like a commercial movie theater. If the back wall is too close to you, bipole/dipole surround speakers are preferred for movies.

[AVian]

Thank you HAMP & Big daddy for the advice.

By the way, the reason that I intend to change my center speaker is because my current one is more than 10 years with the internal sponge corroded. I chooses Mission MH-6c is because it comes together as a package (SGD$250) with Mission MH-6s surround speakers.

For the Sub & Front Speakers, I have just bought it last week. Affordability is my consideration as I don't want to spend too much on center & surround spks, after I have spend quite a lot on my home renovation.

I have attached photos of my Living Room HT setup. Please advice on the surround rear speakers(Mission MH-6s) on the my existing rear spks location (cables dangling).

Thank you.

[jhan1000]

I've noticed that there are quite a few different bipole designs out there. Are there any theoretical advantages or disadvantages to each design?

For example, you have the PSB Image S50 that have both their tweeters and woofers firing sideways in a symmetrical design.


Then, you have the Axiom QS8 that have their tweeters towards the sides, and their woofers firing upwards and downwards.


The following is the Energy V-S that has a single tweeter and single woofer in the center, and the two mid-ranges firing out the sides.


Then you have the Emotiva ERD-1 that has only the woofer in the center, and two tweeters firing out the sides.

[Big Daddy]

Originally Posted by jhan1000

[Show spoiler]I've noticed that there are quite a few different bipole designs out there. Are there any theoretical advantages or disadvantages to each design?

For example, you have the PSB Image S50 that have both their tweeters and woofers firing sideways in a symmetrical design.


Then, you have the Axiom QS8 that have their tweeters towards the sides, and their woofers firing upwards and downwards.


The following is the Energy V-S that has a single tweeter and single woofer in the center, and the two mid-ranges firing out the sides.


Then you have the Emotiva ERD-1 that has only the woofer in the center, and two tweeters firing out the sides.

There are other variations in bipolar surround design. Definitive Technology basically has two MTM (Midrange, Tweeter, Midrange) speakers on each side of thier top-of-the-line BPX and BPVX surround speakers.

The surround speakers in your pictures are all good. It really depends on cost, marketing, and design philosophy of the speaker maker. If cost is no object, I prefer the MTM design of the Definitive Technology surround speakers. I own a pair of PSB Image S50 and a pair of Def Tech BVX surround speakers. The BVX have better performance. I was lucky when I bought them. They were being discontinued and I managed to buy them at half price from an authorized dealer.


Definitive Technology BPX Surround Speakers:

BPX.jpg

Definitive Technology BPVX Surround Speakers:

BPVX.jpg

[allsmiles]

Hello Big Daddy! Great Thread! You have taught me lots of new info.

I have a small 12x10 rectangular room, ceiling is 7 ½ feet high. The TV will be going on the 10 foot wall, so I have the full 12 feet to play with to get surround sound. I think that is too small for a dipole system. The chairs will be in the center of the room, but I am afraid that the null zone would be too small. Would you agree? Instead, I was thinking of using the bipole PSB Image S Surround or the Polk LSiM FX for the surrounds. I am not sure if a 7.1 bipolar setup would have much better sound than a 5.1, or if it worth the extra money because the surround speakers would be spaced out every 5-7 feet (one on either side wall, and 2 on the 10 foot back wall).

Since the room is so small, what type of surround system would you suggest, and would it still be better than a 7.1 monopole setup?

Cheers!

[Big Daddy]

Originally Posted by allsmiles

Hello Big Daddy! Great Thread! You have taught me lots of new info.

I have a small 12x10 rectangular room, ceiling is 7 ½ feet high. The TV will be going on the 10 foot wall, so I have the full 12 feet to play with to get surround sound. I think that is too small for a dipole system. The chairs will be in the center of the room, but I am afraid that the null zone would be too small. Would you agree? Instead, I was thinking of using the bipole PSB Image S Surround or the Polk LSiM FX for the surrounds. I am not sure if a 7.1 bipolar setup would have much better sound than a 5.1, or if it worth the extra money because the surround speakers would be spaced out every 5-7 feet (one on either side wall, and 2 on the 10 foot back wall).

Since the room is so small, what type of surround system would you suggest, and would it still be better than a 7.1 monopole setup?

Cheers!

Bipole surround speakers offer you more flexibility in placement. You cannot lose with PSB or Polk bipole speakers.

[allsmiles]

Thanks BD! I will go with the bipole set up. I will try a 5.1 set up first, and then if I don't think I'm getting the full effect and I have any money left, I will go for the extra set to make it 7.1. --Just don't feel like spending the extra dollars first, I'm not sure if it makes sense or if it will make a difference in such a small room!

[joms]

Damn great thread!
Initially, I was thinking of the polk OMW3 or OMW5 (monopole) for my rear speaker and back speaker to be powered by a Denon 4311.

After reading this, I guess bipoles would benefit me more due to my room arrangement (ill show you a diagram once i get time to make one).

Anyway, could you recommend me a not so big sized bipole speaker (due to WAF) that performs excellently for its price (bang for the buck). I can go upto around $500 for a pair. The smaller the better and if it has a white colored variant then it would be a big plus. (WAF)

Thanks!