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Old 04-20-2011, 05:58 AM   #1
Alex Pallas Alex Pallas is offline
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Default Do any movies use true 24p?

I noticed the specs for the Blu-Ray format offer 23.976 and 24 fps as format options. I was curious if any films were actually released in 24p on Blu-Ray since I have only seen 23.976 encodes. Since analog video isnt a problem anymore it would be nice to see a shift back towards true 24p.
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Old 04-20-2011, 06:53 AM   #2
4K2K 4K2K is offline
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Some, yes eg. Africa: The Serengeti (IMAX) - US version.

I think most consumer players/TVs etc. will be more likely to accept & play 23.976 titles without any picture problems than 24.0 fps - ie. I think some players might (or in the past might have) caused a glitch every few seconds with 24.0 fps.

I think at least 95% of ~24 fps titles are 23.976 and less than about 5% (or even lower - <=1 or 2%??) are 24.000 fps.

Last edited by 4K2K; 04-20-2011 at 07:09 AM.
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Old 04-24-2011, 11:10 PM   #3
Zombienietzsche Zombienietzsche is offline
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They are the same thing, seriously.
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Old 04-25-2011, 03:40 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombienietzsche View Post
They are the same thing, seriously.
Yes
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Old 04-25-2011, 11:54 PM   #5
4K2K 4K2K is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombienietzsche View Post
They are the same thing, seriously.
23.976 fps and 24.000 fps aren't the same thing.
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Old 04-26-2011, 01:13 AM   #6
Jlennerth Jlennerth is offline
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Are we going to argue now how Pi is not actually 3.14?
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Old 04-26-2011, 01:31 AM   #7
My_Two_Cents My_Two_Cents is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4K2K View Post
23.976 fps and 24.000 fps aren't the same thing.
Technically, no, but 23.976 fps = 24p
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Old 04-26-2011, 04:09 AM   #8
4K2K 4K2K is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricshoe View Post
Technically, no, but 23.976 fps = 24p
Except the video and the audio get slowed down by .1% (if the original was 24.0 fps), and people think they are getting "lossless audio" on their "24p" video. If the original was 25p and it's now 23.976, it's been slowed down by 4.096% and people still think the audio is "lossless"/correct.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jlennerth
Are we going to argue now how Pi is not actually 3.14?
Everyone knows it's 3.141592653589793238462643383279502884197169399375 1058209749445923078164062862, and I don't think it could possibly be any more decimal places than that

Last edited by 4K2K; 04-26-2011 at 04:13 AM.
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Old 04-26-2011, 04:15 AM   #9
Clark Kent Clark Kent is offline
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All the Hollywood studios author their Blu-rays at 23.976 fps. The only distributors releasing 24.0 fps on Blu-ray are smaller European companies. There is a good reason why the U.S. studios all author Blu-rays at that specific frame-rate, but the answer does not come to mind off the top of my head.
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Old 04-26-2011, 07:32 AM   #10
Zombienietzsche Zombienietzsche is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4K2K View Post
23.976 fps and 24.000 fps aren't the same thing.
23.976 =0.024 of the signal is used for A/V carrier offset due to the use of A/C oscillation as the basis for signal timing.

within monitor play back they are the same thing, no noticeable difference just a legacy of NTSC standard which is now used by the ATSC. they are the same thing, Seriously. 120hz/24fps = 5 fields per frame 120hz/23.976fps + .024fps delay for carrier offset = 5 fields per frame therefore 5=5.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clark Kent View Post
There is a good reason why the U.S. studios all author Blu-rays at that specific frame-rate, but the answer does not come to mind off the top of my head.
This is the answer you were looking for!

EDIT: Fields should read static frames

Last edited by Zombienietzsche; 04-27-2011 at 03:29 AM. Reason: MATHMATICS!
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Old 04-26-2011, 08:01 AM   #11
4K2K 4K2K is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombienietzsche View Post
120hz/24fps = 5 fields per frame 120hz/23.976fps + .024fps delay for carrier offset = 5 fields per frame therefore 5=5.
Could you explain this a bit more please? Are you talking about how a "120Hz" LCD HDTV displays Blu-ray content or something else (you talk of 5 fields per frame - but I'm sure the latest 120Hz HDTVs wouldn't convert "24p" content to fields - ie. interlace it)?

What do current "120Hz" LCD HDTVs do differently when they receive a 1080p24.000 signal vs a 1080p23.976 signal from a Blu-ray player?

Last edited by 4K2K; 04-26-2011 at 08:43 AM.
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Old 04-26-2011, 11:44 AM   #12
crackinhedz crackinhedz is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4K2K View Post
and people think they are getting "lossless audio" on their "24p" video....and people still think the audio is "lossless"/correct.
"Lossless" refers to the fact it is "bit for bit" identical to the master...slowing down/speeding up does not change the bit info.
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Old 04-26-2011, 12:15 PM   #13
4K2K 4K2K is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crackinhedz View Post
"Lossless" refers to the fact it is "bit for bit" identical to the master...slowing down/speeding up does not change the bit info.
Something that's been slowed down is not bit for bit identical to something that hasn't been slowed down. Also, the one that is slowed down is the one that doesn't have the 'correct' audio.
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Old 04-26-2011, 02:18 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4K2K View Post
Something that's been slowed down is not bit for bit identical to something that hasn't been slowed down. Also, the one that is slowed down is the one that doesn't have the 'correct' audio.
There is not one human alive who could differentiate between the pitch at 23.976 fps and 24 fps. Only bionic hearing could handle that feat. Maybe a Kryptonian under a yellow sun.
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Old 04-26-2011, 03:30 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4K2K View Post
Something that's been slowed down is not bit for bit identical to something that hasn't been slowed down. Also, the one that is slowed down is the one that doesn't have the 'correct' audio.
Something that is slowed down doesn't lose data, the data is still transmitted, at a slower rate. Hence, lossless. And if you can hear the difference between 23.976 fps and 24 fps, you might have a hard time listening to movies and recordings on analog tape..

25 and 24 that's another matter, but as I've mentioned to you, that's how the dice rolled in the US. BBC is doing most local releases at 50i these days I hope
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Old 04-26-2011, 05:46 PM   #16
Zombienietzsche Zombienietzsche is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4K2K View Post
Could you explain this a bit more please? Are you talking about how a "120Hz" LCD HDTV displays Blu-ray content or something else (you talk of 5 fields per frame - but I'm sure the latest 120Hz HDTVs wouldn't convert "24p" content to fields - ie. interlace it)?

What do current "120Hz" LCD HDTVs do differently when they receive a 1080p24.000 signal vs a 1080p23.976 signal from a Blu-ray player?
Sure, it's pretty simple. A progressive scan (read 1080P) is just that progressive, the field scan method goes 1,2,3,4... instead of 1,3,5,7 and then again with 2,4,6,8 with interlacing. The point I am trying make is that both interlacing and progressive scan both use fields

The difference in 23.976 and 24 is the .024 carrier offset. Both hold each image frame for 5 full fields[FRAMES MY BAD], the algorithms for delay and conversion are now done on the board than only relying on A/C oscillation.

EDIT: " both use Frames" not fields but vary by method

Last edited by Zombienietzsche; 04-27-2011 at 03:31 AM. Reason: Got called out yo!
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Old 04-26-2011, 10:34 PM   #17
Pyoko Pyoko is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deciazulado View Post
Something that is slowed down doesn't lose data, the data is still transmitted, at a slower rate.
Not if you already have a digital master, say running at 24.000fps, and you try to slow it down to 23.976fps. The video is untouched, but since the audio track has to have the same sample rate it must be resampled, which changes the data.
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Old 04-26-2011, 11:55 PM   #18
4K2K 4K2K is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deciazulado View Post
Something that is slowed down doesn't lose data, the data is still transmitted, at a slower rate.
So if you have the audio which is say 44Khz, and you slow that audio data down and encode that, also at 44Khz, you will have more audio samples - if you speed it up you'll have less. The audio sample data will have changed.

Last edited by 4K2K; 04-27-2011 at 05:32 PM.
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Old 04-27-2011, 12:05 AM   #19
4K2K 4K2K is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombienietzsche View Post
Sure, it's pretty simple. A progressive scan (read 1080P) is just that progressive, the field scan method goes 1,2,3,4... instead of 1,3,5,7 and then again with 2,4,6,8 with interlacing. The point I am trying make is that both interlacing and progressive scan both use fields
But surely a "progressive-scan" "120Hz" LCD HDTV doesn't use fields for output - it uses frames (and any interlaced footage on input will be converted by the TV to progressive before display, so again it won't output fields).
Quote:
The difference in 23.976 and 24 is the .024 carrier offset. Both hold each image frame for 5 full fields, the algorithms for delay and conversion are now done on the board than only relying on A/C oscillation.
I still don't understand (and 1 field = half a frame).

Does a "120Hz" LCD HDTV output a 23.976Hz source from a Blu-ray player at 119.88Hz (23.976*5), and does it output a 24.000Hz source from a Blu-ray player at 120.000Hz? Or does it output everything at one rate - eg. 119.88Hz and for the 24.000Hz source omit an output frame every so often (ie. not do a full 5:5 pull-down)?

Last edited by 4K2K; 04-27-2011 at 01:23 AM.
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Old 04-27-2011, 12:35 AM   #20
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24.00 HZ Blu-Ray discs that I own:
-Highlander (Optimum, UK)
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-Dead Snow (IFC, US)
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