Surge Protection...

[Krelldog1977]

Happy Holiday weekend all,

I don't have much long-term experience with higher end voltage/surge protection devices, and would love to hear some feedback as to their effectiveness...or lack of.

I hear conflicting reviews and experiences from dealers and friends....but I've read some laughable marketing ads claiming a VAST improvement on audio quality. Would love to hear anyone's experience...
thanks!

[gotmule]

Originally Posted by Krelldog1977

Happy Holiday weekend all,

I don't have much long-term experience with higher end voltage/surge protection devices, and would love to hear some feedback as to their effectiveness...or lack of.

I hear conflicting reviews and experiences from dealers and friends....but I've read some laughable marketing ads claiming a VAST improvement on audio quality. Would love to hear anyone's experience...
thanks!

That is a "Pull the pin" sort of question as I am sure there will be people on both sides on this one. I guess I will jump on the grenade first.

I think one of the biggest factors going in is the quality of power in the room to start with. I have seen and heard conditioners rectify some issues, but have also seen them not get rid of some gremlins. I have also read the claims that they will fix everything including receding hairlines and a slice in your golf swing.

My experience in my system is with the Monster Power HTPS 7000 which used to be their high end unit for about $1200. I know Noel Lee is certainly not the most respected person in the industry, and can come off like a snake oil salesman, but I was pulled in by this model by their approach to balanced power since it in theory should eliminate any noise that exists in your lines and system. I have a dedicated breaker box and line running to my room, and my voltage is hovering around 120 v, so I started off in a pretty good position.

The claims for this unit back in the day were the typical ones....tighter bass, wider soundstage, etc... What I experienced was a bit of that, but not earth shattering.

It is hard to quantify the benefit of such a unit, but I would not classify it as a vast improvement. If you are someone who only listens to multi channel, I don't know if you will hear it. If you are someone who listens to 2 channel ( and I hope with your speakers you are ) you might hear some benefits, but vast is still a big word.

On the other side of the equation, I had a Transparent Power Isolator XL ($2100) in play with my 2 channel system that I ended up selling because I realized after doing some A/B comparisons listening to vinyl, I didn't need it. I used to listen to cds where it was more of a pronounced difference due to the source being digital....but still not vast.

The other factor is that the rest of your system has to be pretty revealing as well to notice any improvements.

Bottom line for me is that I will always have something to act as a watchdog for the system since things happen, plus it is convenient to hit one button to turn on most of the system. If I had to pursue something today, I would check out Richard Gray and Panamax. Richard Gray looks somewhat odd, and is a bit pricier, so I would check out the Panamax line first in my system if I had to do it today. THe M5400 or M5300 is probably where I would start since they have a pretty good return policy.

I know that any time claims are made saying that improvements were made by changing out cables, power cords, or any other accessories in the system, those claims will be refuted and challenged by others. Over the years, I have tweaked a lot of things in my room with varying levels of impact and success....some stick around, some don't.

[slimdude]

A surge protector does not improve the audio quality on anything! That information is totally ridiculous and false.

[gotmule]

Originally Posted by slimdude

A surge protector does not improve the audio quality on anything! That information is totally ridiculous and false.

I kinda had a feeling you would be on that side of the street on this one. I am curious though what high end units you tested in your system, since the original question was looking for people's experiences with them, not just the end result or a pre determined outcome based on beliefs going in. I agree that a $99 strip is not going to impact any performance, but as you go up the food chain, technology does in fact change. As technology chains, so can performance.

[Krelldog1977]

Originally Posted by gotmule

That is a "Pull the pin" sort of question as I am sure there will be people on both sides on this one. I guess I will jump on the grenade first.

I think one of the biggest factors going in is the quality of power in the room to start with. I have seen and heard conditioners rectify some issues, but have also seen them not get rid of some gremlins. I have also read the claims that they will fix everything including receding hairlines and a slice in your golf swing.

My experience in my system is with the Monster Power HTPS 7000 which used to be their high end unit for about $1200. I know Noel Lee is certainly not the most respected person in the industry, and can come off like a snake oil salesman, but I was pulled in by this model by their approach to balanced power since it in theory should eliminate any noise that exists in your lines and system. I have a dedicated breaker box and line running to my room, and my voltage is hovering around 120 v, so I started off in a pretty good position.

The claims for this unit back in the day were the typical ones....tighter bass, wider soundstage, etc... What I experienced was a bit of that, but not earth shattering.

It is hard to quantify the benefit of such a unit, but I would not classify it as a vast improvement. If you are someone who only listens to multi channel, I don't know if you will hear it. If you are someone who listens to 2 channel ( and I hope with your speakers you are ) you might hear some benefits, but vast is still a big word.

On the other side of the equation, I had a Transparent Power Isolator XL ($2100) in play with my 2 channel system that I ended up selling because I realized after doing some A/B comparisons listening to vinyl, I didn't need it. I used to listen to cds where it was more of a pronounced difference due to the source being digital....but still not vast.

The other factor is that the rest of your system has to be pretty revealing as well to notice any improvements.

Bottom line for me is that I will always have something to act as a watchdog for the system since things happen, plus it is convenient to hit one button to turn on most of the system. If I had to pursue something today, I would check out Richard Gray and Panamax. Richard Gray looks somewhat odd, and is a bit pricier, so I would check out the Panamax line first in my system if I had to do it today. THe M5400 or M5300 is probably where I would start since they have a pretty good return policy.

I know that any time claims are made saying that improvements were made by changing out cables, power cords, or any other accessories in the system, those claims will be refuted and challenged by others. Over the years, I have tweaked a lot of things in my room with varying levels of impact and success....some stick around, some don't.

Thank you for all the feedback, really appreciate that! I had used a Richard Gray years back and it did nothing at all to improve the sound quality, nor did it have any positive effects on my dealer's $75k system. I'd put it at the bottom of list for enhancing sound quality, right next to cables and speaker wire...

talk to ya soon,
B

[Dwayne]

My best friend has been a master electrician for yrs.. We have discussed this topic many time's, and he tell's me the same thing over and over. First off: Nothing that plug's into a wall outlet can be saved, period!!! Power surge's happen frequently, more so than one would believe . Every day someone looses an expensive appliance, audio component's, and HDTVs . Do these expensive higher end power surge/conditioner's work as they claim, MAYBE . They do however clean up the filthy electricity that flow's thru the line's, but hardly noticeable to the average person. Do they actually help protect your equipment from being fried, and will they actually replace your component's/appliance's with the dollar amount they state in front of the package/box, NOT LIKELY. The only proof they can claim their product doe's what it say's it will do is saying that it HELP'S protect the thing's that are plugged into their product, NOT STOP'S BUT HELP'S. These product's are basicly life insurance item's/peace of mind. Power companies can install whole home protection at the electric meter's, but once again, NO GUARANTEE. I myself feel better knowing that my audio/video equipment is plugged in to these product's but the actual thing's that these product's CAN DO is very, very subtle. My electrician friend has his home theater piece's plugged into a console PANAMAX, along with dedicated 20 amp outlet's ( which doe's help ) along with the whole home protection at his electric meter. I use a console MONSTER product with 20 amp dedicated outlet's. If you can afford these product's, then please use them, but understand that what they can actually do is very subtle, but having as much peace of mind as you can provide, certainly help's . Where I live, tornado's and severe thunderstorm's happen frequently, and the only way you can guarantee your stuff is protected is by UNPLUGGING your device's from the outlet's, not just turning off your power surge/conditioner . Having said all of this, these device's are designed to give their life with an alarm that goes off if such a thing was to happen, and everyone that I know that uses these have never experienced an alarm going off, so maybe these device's work better than we know, and for that reason alone is worth the money for me .

[RageATL]

Originally Posted by Dwayne

My best friend has been a master electrician for yrs.. We have discussed this topic many time's, and he tell's me the same thing over and over. First off: Nothing that plug's into a wall outlet can be saved, period!!! Power surge's happen frequently, more so than one would believe . Every day someone looses an expensive appliance, audio component's, and HDTVs . Do these expensive higher end power surge/conditioner's work as they claim, MAYBE . They do however clean up the filthy electricity that flow's thru the line's, but hardly noticeable to the average person. Do they actually help protect your equipment from being fried, and will they actually replace your component's/appliance's with the dollar amount they state in front of the package/box, NOT LIKELY. The only proof they can claim their product doe's what it say's it will do is saying that it HELP'S protect the thing's that are plugged into their product, NOT STOP'S BUT HELP'S. These product's are basicly life insurance item's/peace of mind. Power companies can install whole home protection at the electric meter's, but once again, NO GUARANTEE. I myself feel better knowing that my audio/video equipment is plugged in to these product's but the actual thing's that these product's CAN DO is very, very subtle. My electrician friend has his home theater piece's plugged into a console PANAMAX, along with dedicated 20 amp outlet's ( which doe's help ) along with the whole home protection at his electric meter. I use a console MONSTER product with 20 amp dedicated outlet's. If you can afford these product's, then please use them, but understand that what they can actually do is very subtle, but having as much peace of mind as you can provide, certainly help's . Where I live, tornado's and severe thunderstorm's happen frequently, and the only way you can guarantee your stuff is protected is by UNPLUGGING your device's from the outlet's, not just turning off your power surge/conditioner .

I too use a Panamax unit like yourself (the 5300EX I believe), but also use several PS Audio Ultimate Outlets in my system as well. It is my understanding that with the UOs, they essentially sacrifice themselves in case of a surge at the expense of $200 per unit. So my thought was that $200 was a reasonable price to pay to ensure that a surge doesn't damage a $1K+ amp.

[Gravy4547]

So what's the consensus here? I got a 45 dollar surge protector for Lowes, and I do unplug when faced with storms. Good enough? I figure if my house get hit with lighting, my system will probably be toast with our with out expensive surge protection.

I am also operating under the assumption that anything Monster Cable says in a lie. When Monster said I needed $90 HDMI cables, I sad F-U, and got a 3 dollar pair, works great. Monster says I need to spend untold riches in surge protection to insure my shit don't get fried, then I say, I am going to Lowes.

Is surge protection go big or got home?

Worst part about it is with Com-Ed in Chicago-land, the light are constantly dimming and brightening. Part of their "smart grid", but I does scare the shit out of me. Cross my fingers and hope that surge protector is doing its job.

[78deluxe]

Originally Posted by Gravy4547

So what's the consensus here? I got a 45 dollar surge protector for Lowes, and I do unplug when faced with storms. Good enough? I figure if my house get hit with lighting, my system will probably be toast with our with out expensive surge protection.

I am also operating under the assumption that anything Monster Cable says in a lie. When Monster said I needed $90 HDMI cables, I sad F-U, and got a 3 dollar pair, works great. Monster says I need to spend untold riches in surge protection to insure my shit don't get fried, then I say, I am going to Lowes.

Is surge protection go big or got home?

Worst part about it is with Com-Ed in Chicago-land, the light are constantly dimming and brightening. Part of their "smart grid", but I does scare the shit out of me. Cross my fingers and hope that surge protector is doing its job.

What you want is a UPS Battery Backup and Surge Protector combination.

A run of the mill surge protector is only for the warranty it provides, your equipment will still be damaged if something should happen. A UPS at least helps give some clean power for a short period of time allowing you to unplug things if said event happens while you are right there watching your TV.

That will help with your fluctuation in power as long as you get one with enough juice.

[Krelldog1977]

Originally Posted by Dwayne

My best friend has been a master electrician for yrs.. We have discussed this topic many time's, and he tell's me the same thing over and over. First off: Nothing that plug's into a wall outlet can be saved, period!!! Power surge's happen frequently, more so than one would believe . Every day someone looses an expensive appliance, audio component's, and HDTVs . Do these expensive higher end power surge/conditioner's work as they claim, MAYBE . They do however clean up the filthy electricity that flow's thru the line's, but hardly noticeable to the average person. Do they actually help protect your equipment from being fried, and will they actually replace your component's/appliance's with the dollar amount they state in front of the package/box, NOT LIKELY. The only proof they can claim their product doe's what it say's it will do is saying that it HELP'S protect the thing's that are plugged into their product, NOT STOP'S BUT HELP'S. These product's are basicly life insurance item's/peace of mind. Power companies can install whole home protection at the electric meter's, but once again, NO GUARANTEE. I myself feel better knowing that my audio/video equipment is plugged in to these product's but the actual thing's that these product's CAN DO is very, very subtle. My electrician friend has his home theater piece's plugged into a console PANAMAX, along with dedicated 20 amp outlet's ( which doe's help ) along with the whole home protection at his electric meter. I use a console MONSTER product with 20 amp dedicated outlet's. If you can afford these product's, then please use them, but understand that what they can actually do is very subtle, but having as much peace of mind as you can provide, certainly help's . Where I live, tornado's and severe thunderstorm's happen frequently, and the only way you can guarantee your stuff is protected is by UNPLUGGING your device's from the outlet's, not just turning off your power surge/conditioner . Having said all of this, these device's are designed to give their life with an alarm that goes off if such a thing was to happen, and everyone that I know that uses these have never experienced an alarm going off, so maybe these device's work better than we know, and for that reason alone is worth the money for me .

Awesome Dwayne, that is some great feedback and I have made my choice...

The weather where I'm at gets hit with a lot of lightning, but no tornadoes so far...but I still want some peace of mind... so I went ahead and ordered a $50
Surge Suppressor, with a $50,000 lifetime insurance on any damaged equipment. It will be plugged into a 20amp outlet under my TV...directly behind the amps.

Just the peace of mind helps! Especially now that I've acquired those massive beasts as towers and will eventually go for a better amp when I retire my old one.....I don't want to end up getting burnt after such a rare find! My relatives in Nevada got nailed last year with a direct thunderbolt that damaged a ton of electronics in their home. It hit their palm tree, leaving it almost split in half, and their projector and exterior lights were damaged plus other items.........ya never know with my luck!

Hope all is well my friend!
Bri

[Dwayne]

Yes you have some great speaker's, those PBN Montana's and the vintage XPS signature's are truly remarkable . I'm very glad you chose to add a surge protector/line conditioner to your set up . Having peace of mind is what these are all about .

[Pondosinatra]

Originally Posted by Krelldog1977

Happy Holiday weekend all,

I don't have much long-term experience with higher end voltage/surge protection devices, and would love to hear some feedback as to their effectiveness...or lack of.

I hear conflicting reviews and experiences from dealers and friends....but I've read some laughable marketing ads claiming a VAST improvement on audio quality. Would love to hear anyone's experience...
thanks!

If it's something you really value and there's a storm coming - unplug it. Period.

I have my rack protected with this:

http://www.middleatlantic.com/produc...-915rv-rn.aspx

and this:

http://www.apc.com/shop/us/en/produc.../P-SMT1500RM2U

and all my end devices (TV's, stereo amp, sacd player etc.) are protected with this:

http://www.apc.com/shop/us/en/produc...lter-120V/P-C2

But like I said, for something I consider irreplaceable - my computers, pinball machines etc. I'll unplug them once I hear thunder.

[Dwayne]

Originally Posted by Pondosinatra

If it's something you really value and there's a storm coming - unplug it. Period.

I have my rack protected with this:

http://www.middleatlantic.com/produc...-915rv-rn.aspx

and this:

http://www.apc.com/shop/us/en/produc.../P-SMT1500RM2U

and all my end devices (TV's, stereo amp, sacd player etc.) are protected with this:

http://www.apc.com/shop/us/en/produc...lter-120V/P-C2

But like I said, for something I consider irreplaceable - my computers, pinball machines etc. I'll unplug them once I hear thunder.

You have already figured this out: UNPLUG . The piece's you have purchased are very adequate in term's of doing what you can for peace of mind . Yes the claim's that the difference in Audio/Video quality is greatly improved is Bull**** . I have the original Harlem Globetrotter's Pinball machine issued in the mid 70's, it still play's and everything on it still work's properly. I was going to restore it, but I chose to leave it alone. When I turn this thing on, It still bring's a big smile to my face. Best $100.00 I have ever spent.

[Krelldog1977]

Originally Posted by Dwayne

You have already figured this out: UNPLUG . The piece's you have purchased are very adequate in term's of doing what you can for peace of mind . Yes the claim's that the difference in Audio/Video quality is greatly improved is Bull**** . I have the original Harlem Globetrotter's Pinball machine issued in the mid 70's, it still play's and everything on it still work's properly. I was going to restore it, but I chose to leave it alone. When I turn this thing on, It still bring's a big smile to my face. Best $100.00 I have ever spent.

Nice, thanks fellas, now that settles that....done!

Next up- My 7 year old stereo amp which operates in Class D is rated at 250w per channel.....more than enough for my previous EPS2's. But now, since I'm putting 4k and immersive audio on the back burner for a while longer, do you guys think I should consider an amp upgrade? I'm interested in Class D amps or hybrids......from my experience they offer a slightly better value than the AB bias amps I've owned....See ya on the amp thread!

[Krelldog1977]

Originally Posted by Pondosinatra

If it's something you really value and there's a storm coming - unplug it. Period.

I have my rack protected with this:

http://www.middleatlantic.com/produc...-915rv-rn.aspx

and this:

http://www.apc.com/shop/us/en/produc.../P-SMT1500RM2U

and all my end devices (TV's, stereo amp, sacd player etc.) are protected with this:

http://www.apc.com/shop/us/en/produc...lter-120V/P-C2

But like I said, for something I consider irreplaceable - my computers, pinball machines etc. I'll unplug them once I hear thunder.

Thanks! Your place looks amazing bro... I'm a big Alien fan, Blade Runner, Star Wars, Doctor Who, Daleks,...awesome!

Thx for the feedback...! enjoy

[Krelldog1977]

Originally Posted by Dwayne

You have already figured this out: UNPLUG . The piece's you have purchased are very adequate in term's of doing what you can for peace of mind . Yes the claim's that the difference in Audio/Video quality is greatly improved is Bull**** . I have the original Harlem Globetrotter's Pinball machine issued in the mid 70's, it still play's and everything on it still work's properly. I was going to restore it, but I chose to leave it alone. When I turn this thing on, It still bring's a big smile to my face. Best $100.00 I have ever spent.

I gotta get one of those pinball machines! I could only imagine what they must go for now....loved the arcade days!!

Yup- those ludicrous claims of 60% better fidelity is pure fiction.....its not even an exaggeration....just laughable.

[Dwayne]

Originally Posted by Krelldog1977

Nice, thanks fellas, now that settles that....done!

Next up- My 7 year old stereo amp which operates in Class D is rated at 250w per channel.....more than enough for my previous EPS2's. But now, since I'm putting 4k and immersive audio on the back burner for a while longer, do you guys think I should consider an amp upgrade? I'm interested in Class D amps or hybrids......from my experience they offer a slightly better value than the AB bias amps I've owned....See ya on the amp thread!

Try the ( Not sure if this is the correct ) audio thread. This is all about external amp's and trying to achieve better audio . Great thread with many friend's I'm sure you know, posting all of the time . Would love to have you in the mix .

[Krelldog1977]

Originally Posted by Dwayne

Try the ( Not sure if this is the correct ) audio thread. This is all about external amp's and trying to achieve better audio . Great thread with many friend's I'm sure you know, posting all of the time . Would love to have you in the mix .

I'll be there soon D! Prerich will have my monitors in hand tmro, and I did an amp upgrade spontaneously...! The amp I'm using now is well over 10 years old and needs to be refurbished any time now for maximum performance..keep you posted in the pre/pro thread when it comes in...

[Dwayne]

Originally Posted by Krelldog1977

I'll be there soon D! Prerich will have my monitors in hand tmro, and I did an amp upgrade spontaneously...! The amp I'm using now is well over 10 years old and needs to be refurbished any time now for maximum performance..keep you posted in the pre/pro thread when it comes in...

Looking forward to it .

[Krelldog1977]

Originally Posted by Dwayne

Looking forward to it .

Yes sir

Will be shipped out on Monday....hopefully have in hand by end of next week

My older amp has drawn over 25 watchers the past week...auction ends soon...hopefully get as much funds as possible....more dental work coming up....doggitt!

KD