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Old 05-05-2017, 01:10 AM   #21
evoxturbo evoxturbo is offline
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Nobody plug their Xbox One into a surge protector. It already has one inside the power cable and can affect performance if you plug into another surge protector.
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Old 05-05-2017, 04:55 AM   #22
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Funny...

I was recently thinking of this topic lately too, as I have been considering upgrading my power protection in both my 5.1 and 2.0 channel systems...

Right now, I have my surround setup plugged into an on-the-floor Monster PowerCenter, and everything has been fine, but I wanted to look into one of those "component" power conditioning units that actually sit in your rack/on your shelf and have the display screens with voltage readings and such; upstairs in my two-channel system, I need to get much better quality protection up there...

What would be recommended when it comes to these "component-style" power protectors...Monster? APC? I don't want to go too expensive; I was thinking like $100 to maybe $200 or so...is there one that's better than the "sit-on-the-floor" units and are they better than those?

The kind I'm referring to are like these:







Right now, in the 5.1 setup, I'm using this:

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Old 05-05-2017, 03:18 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IntelliVolume View Post
I was recently thinking of this topic lately too, as I have been considering upgrading my power protection in both my 5.1 and 2.0 channel systems...
Effective protection from direct lightning strikes costs about $1 per protected appliance.

Monster sold speaker cables with one end marked for the amp; other end for speakers. If you connected the speaker end to an amp, Monster said audio quality would be perverted. Many even claimed they could hear a difference. So Monster sold $6 speaker wires for $70.

Monster has a long history of identifying scams. Then successfully selling an equivalent product for tens of times more money. Those expensive looking boxes have a circuit equivalent to one selling in Walmart for $10. Scams are that easily promoted when subjective reasoning and emotions (no numbers) replaces logical thoughts and concepts even taught in elementary school science.

Another foolishly claims nothing can protect from destructive surges. Any reply without numbers is best ignored as if an intentional lie. Some numbers. Protection is always about where hundreds of thousands of joules are harmlessly absorbed. How many joules do those near zero and expensive 'magic boxes' claim to absorb? Hundreds? A thousand? What happens when they try to 'block' or 'absorb' hundreds of thousands of joules? It is a question with numbers. Pay most attention to those numbers.

Why did another foolishly claim nothing can protect from destructive surges? Many are only educated by scams. Those expensive and near zero joule protectors fail to protect. So the naive (using junk science reasoning) assume nothing can protect from direct lightning strikes. That damage is not due to lightning. That damage is directly traceable to human failure - starting with failure to learn from specification numbers.

Your telco's switching computer is connected to buildings all over town. It suffers about 100 surges with each storm. How often is your town without phone service for four days while they replace that surge damaged computer? Never? Exactly. Because direct lightning strikes without damage has been routine for well over 100 years. Over 100 years of well proven science is still completely unknown to most? Yes. Most are educated by fables; not by science. No numbers is a first indication of a scam.

When educated by advertising, wild speculation, observation, and 'he told me that ...', well junk science is then alive and well. That is contempt for science concepts that were even taught in elementary school science.

Best protection (that costs about $1 per protected science) is defined in another discussion - with plenty of numbers that any layman or master electrician can and should know: In a discussion entitled "I have to replace my surge protector. Is this one powerful enough for my needs?" at
https://www.reddit.com/r/techsupport...r_is_this_one/

Also discussed previously here.

Last edited by westom; 05-05-2017 at 03:52 PM.
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Old 05-06-2017, 08:10 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IntelliVolume View Post

What would be recommended when it comes to these "component-style" power protectors...Monster? APC? I don't want to go too expensive; I was thinking like $100 to maybe $200 or so...is there one that's better than the "sit-on-the-floor" units and are they better than those?

The kind I'm referring to are like these

Hey there my friend, hope all is well . Personally I myself use the Console Monster 1600 serie's, which is identical to the 1800 listed above. I have had very good luck with mine, and this model is reasonably priced. My son uses three of the same Monster Console Model 1800. He is an IT-Tech by trade, build's custom computer's at home, plug's all of his guitar tube amp's into them, his audio mixing board, recording equipment along with his Home Theater equipment as well. He love's his as much as I do mine. The voltage indicator on the front panel's can become very handy, as the standard amount of voltage will usually show 120 and up to 125 on good day's. When in the middle of the summer's here in Dallas, the usage of electricity is precious and the voltage indicator can drop to 114/115, and in my neighborhood this almost allway's mean's the power will go off briefly. Do these console model's work better, who know's, but it seem's that most of the people on this website use them, especially the Panamax Model's. Do these actually clean out the trashy electricity coming off the line, along with making a better audible difference in audio, who know's. Most of the console model's, including the Monster 1800 come with a built in alarm that will go off in the event of a terrible storm, indicating that your unit has given it's life for your equipment, hopefully to the point that your stuff is okay. Then all you have at that point is a very pretty multiple outlet to plug thing's into with no more protection at that point. All of these are designed to bring us a little more protection than a standard wall outlet, and most of all peace of mind, which make's them worth every penny to me. One thing for sure is that the people who use them, swear by them, as my son and I do.

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Old 05-06-2017, 08:30 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IntelliVolume View Post
Funny...

I was recently thinking of this topic lately too, as I have been considering upgrading my power protection in both my 5.1 and 2.0 channel systems...

Right now, I have my surround setup plugged into an on-the-floor Monster PowerCenter, and everything has been fine, but I wanted to look into one of those "component" power conditioning units that actually sit in your rack/on your shelf and have the display screens with voltage readings and such; upstairs in my two-channel system, I need to get much better quality protection up there...

What would be recommended when it comes to these "component-style" power protectors...Monster? APC? I don't want to go too expensive; I was thinking like $100 to maybe $200 or so...is there one that's better than the "sit-on-the-floor" units and are they better than those?

The kind I'm referring to are like these:

[Show spoiler]





Right now, in the 5.1 setup, I'm using this:

That's interesting ...............................

I myself have been looking into power centers, since the Monster units I'm using now are getting a little long in the tooth ... And this is just the model I'm looking at to use as a replacement

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Old 05-07-2017, 01:43 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dwayne View Post
Most of the console model's, including the Monster 1800 come with a built in alarm that will go off in the event of a terrible storm, indicating that your unit has given it's life for your equipment, hopefully to the point that your stuff is okay.
Effective protectors must not fail catastrophically. An acceptable failure mode is degradation. That alarm can never detect or report degradation. It can only report an unacceptable catastrophic failure.

If a protector is grossly undersized, then its protector parts must disconnect from a surge as fast as possible. While leaving that surge connected to adjacent appliances. Since appliances already have superior protection, then a surge too tiny to damage appliances also destroys a near zero protector. That gets consumers to recommend that near zero joules protector, buy more, and justify a price that is tens or 100 times higher than effective protectors.

Its meter is just another gimmick - as if 125 volts or 114 volts is abnormal or harmful. Normal voltage for electronics means an incandescent bulb will dim to 50% intensity or double intensity. How often does your voltage vary that much?

Those voltage variations can be problematic for motorized appliances. So that Furman or Monster is needed on a refrigerator, furnace, vacuum cleaner, etc. Not on electronics.
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Old 05-07-2017, 06:10 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by westom View Post
Effective protectors must not fail catastrophically. An acceptable failure mode is degradation. That alarm can never detect or report degradation. It can only report an unacceptable catastrophic failure.

If a protector is grossly undersized, then its protector parts must disconnect from a surge as fast as possible. While leaving that surge connected to adjacent appliances. Since appliances already have superior protection, then a surge too tiny to damage appliances also destroys a near zero protector. That gets consumers to recommend that near zero joules protector, buy more, and justify a price that is tens or 100 times higher than effective protectors.

Its meter is just another gimmick - as if 125 volts or 114 volts is abnormal or harmful. Normal voltage for electronics means an incandescent bulb will dim to 50% intensity or double intensity. How often does your voltage vary that much?

Those voltage variations can be problematic for motorized appliances. So that Furman or Monster is needed on a refrigerator, furnace, vacuum cleaner, etc. Not on electronics.
All very good point's made my friend .
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Old 05-26-2017, 08:10 PM   #28
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I use a 1350VA UPS to smooth out power in the case of brownouts or surges. If I'm using the TV/amp, I will turn them off in the case of a power outage, but when power drops off unexpectedly, I'd rather it's the UPS turning off than the utility determining how spiky the last second of power is.


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Old 09-08-2017, 10:16 PM   #29
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There's a lot of misinformation here. Yes, if your abode gets hit by a direct lightning strike, something is likely to be damaged. There is a big difference between levels of surge protection. MOV based surge protectors can fail without alerting you, or may degrade to the point of offering no protection against a large surge.

Your best bet is using series mode surge protection, which was invented by J. Rudy Harford, of Zero Surge, and then licensed to SurgeX and Brick Wall. The inductors and capacitors used will provide some noise reduction. For information on this technology, look at the following links:

https://www.pcmag.com/encyclopedia/t...ge-suppression

https://www.brickwall.com/pages/no-failures

https://zerosurge.com/faqs/

https://zerosurge.com/pq-filter/

https://zerosurge.com/surge-suppression/

https://zerosurge.com/product-comparisons/

https://zerosurge.com/certifications/


For audiophiles, the best power conditioners are filterless. But for options that provide quality surge protection, Audience, Audioquest, Furman, and Shunyata provide options.
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Old 09-08-2017, 10:33 PM   #30
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I always tell my HiFi friends and HT peeps, YOU MUST GET A POWER CONDITIONER.

So I'll share the same with you, because if you're not protecting your investment, why even bother getting it?

Plugging into the wall directly is ridiculous in my opinion.

Good Luck and I hope you get what you need!
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Old 09-08-2017, 11:07 PM   #31
Vilya Vilya is offline
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I have a Panamax EX 5500 that is way, way past its prime: it is 11 years old and I have been in a quandary about whether I should replace it with another power conditioner or just a surge protector. The fluorescent display on my Panamax EX 5500 started to act oddly several years ago, except for the meters; they are always illuminated, but they seem to have faded some. I have come to dislike fluorescent displays. My Panamax also makes weird, rapid, and random clicking noises even while everything is turned off.

I came across a CNET article from July 30, 2014 that says power conditioners are a waste of money.

"There are a number of products on the market that claim to "condition" the power from the wall, promising improved performance in your gear. Here's the dirty little secret: your gear already does this. All electronics have a power supply that takes the incoming wall current (110v in the US), filters it for noise, and converts it into whatever the device needs. Almost nothing actually runs on 110 volts (or alternating current, for that matter), so unless you've got some really wacky (or cheap) gear, and live in an area with bizarrely inadequate power, a power conditioner isn't something you need."

Full article here: https://www.cnet.com/news/9-things-y...ge-protectors/

The article basically says to buy a surge protector and replace it "after a serious electrical event."

I am wondering what people here think about this article's recommendation to use affordable, easily replaceable surge protectors instead of pricier power conditioners that are not needed, according to the article's author.

Last edited by Vilya; 09-08-2017 at 11:53 PM.
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Old 09-09-2017, 12:05 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vilya View Post
I have a Panamax EX 5500 that is way, way past its prime: it is 11 years old and I have been in a quandary about whether I should replace it with another power conditioner or just a surge protector. The fluorescent display on my Panamax EX 5500 started to act oddly several years ago except for the meters; they are always illuminated, but they seem to have faded some. I have come to dislike fluorescent displays.

I came across a CNET article from July 30, 2014 that says power conditioners are a waste of money.

"There are a number of products on the market that claim to "condition" the power from the wall, promising improved performance in your gear. Here's the dirty little secret: your gear already does this. All electronics have a power supply that takes the incoming wall current (110v in the US), filters it for noise, and converts it into whatever the device needs. Almost nothing actually runs on 110 volts (or alternating current, for that matter), so unless you've got some really wacky (or cheap) gear, and live in an area with bizarrely inadequate power, a power conditioner isn't something you need."

Full article here: https://www.cnet.com/news/9-things-y...ge-protectors/

The article basically says to buy a surge protector and replace it "after a serious electrical event."

I am wondering what people here think about this article's recommendation to use affordable, easily replaceable surge protectors instead of pricier power conditioners that are not needed, according to the article's author.
Geoff can have some useful information, but also includes unfactual information, as he is an idiot too concerned with the theoretical, than the truth.

Case in point, "9. They don't last forever...If you know you've had a serious electrical event (like lighting blew out a transformer down the street), it's probably worth replacing your surge protector just in case." For cheap MOV based surge protectors, the advice under that point may hold true. Series mode surge protectors I mentioned earlier are warranted for at least 10 years, and will likely outlast you or your gear.

He obviously has no experience with the audible and visual benefits of a quality power conditioner. Even if he did, he would still likely scoff at the difference, because it would fracture his little ego.


The questions are how much are you looking to spend, how many outlets do you need, would you like to improve your A/V quality or just protect your gear, and how much wattage or amps is your gear drawing?

"To insure you are choosing the right size, calculate the amps required using information from the product manual or label. If it lists the Watts instead of Amps, a simple calculation can be performed. Divide the total Watts by 120 (600 Watts = 5 Amps). Do this for all of the equipment you would like to protect on the same unit, total them, and you will have your minimum size requirement."

This information would be most relevant if you go with a balanced power conditioner.
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Old 09-09-2017, 12:42 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMill View Post
The questions are how much are you looking to spend, how many outlets do you need, would you like to improve your A/V quality or just protect your gear, and how much wattage or amps is your gear drawing?
I would like both protection (I live in the midwest with frequent electrical storms) and A/V quality improvements. My old Panamax EX 5500 has 10 outlets and it cost about $1G in 2006. I remember wincing at that price! I would hope they are more affordable now.

I would prefer to stay around $500 unless spending more than that will be well worth it. I would like to retain the 10 outlets, too. My receiver draws 10.6 amps according to its manual; my TV uses 3.7 amps. I don't know what the other components draw. I usually just have one input device on at a time, typically my blu-ray player.

Thanks for your reply; I still need to explore the links in your earlier post.

Last edited by Vilya; 09-09-2017 at 12:46 AM.
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Old 09-09-2017, 06:41 AM   #34
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I don't find that power conditioners actually make a difference in picture or sound from what I have seen in my own home theater. Surge protectors/power conditioners are one of the most important items to have in your rack though.
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Old 09-09-2017, 09:11 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AnalogAperture View Post
I always tell my HiFi friends and HT peeps, YOU MUST GET A POWER CONDITIONER.

So I'll share the same with you, because if you're not protecting your investment, why even bother getting it?

Plugging into the wall directly is ridiculous in my opinion.

Good Luck and I hope you get what you need!
I totally agree .... especially if you are running a projector in your theater, an UPS power conditioner comes in handy to power the projector down properly during a power outage. I also had my electrician son install a siemens whole house surge protector at the main electrical panel.
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Old 09-10-2017, 02:06 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vilya View Post
I would like both protection (I live in the midwest with frequent electrical storms) and A/V quality improvements. My old Panamax EX 5500 has 10 outlets and it cost about $1G in 2006. I remember wincing at that price! I would hope they are more affordable now.

I would prefer to stay around $500 unless spending more than that will be well worth it. I would like to retain the 10 outlets, too. My receiver draws 10.6 amps according to its manual; my TV uses 3.7 amps. I don't know what the other components draw. I usually just have one input device on at a time, typically my blu-ray player.

Thanks for your reply; I still need to explore the links in your earlier post.
Power conditioners are in all price ranges, although the top units have gone up in price.

At that price, there's the 10 outlet home theater unit from Brick Wall, or the Furman ELITE-15 DM I.

https://www.brickwall.com/collection...e-theater-hdtv
http://www.furmanpower.com/product/c...TE-15%20DM%20I

If you're willing to expand your budget, the Furman ELITE-15 PF I retails for $749, but can probably had for less. Or if you're okay buying used, a Furman ELITE-20 PF I can be had for a little less. I'm not sure how this compares to a Brickwall, but Furman are heavily used in recording studios, if balanced power isn't used for the whole studio.

If A/V is your primary concern, and upping your budget, an Audience adeptResponse aR2p or Audioquest Niagara 1000, combined with 1 or 2 Wireworld Matrix 2 power distributors, would probably be your best bet.
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Old 09-10-2017, 02:09 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canada View Post
I don't find that power conditioners actually make a difference in picture or sound from what I have seen in my own home theater. Surge protectors/power conditioners are one of the most important items to have in your rack though.
It'd give more credence if you expounded on what conditioners you've actually tried, and your HT components.
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Old 09-10-2017, 04:28 AM   #38
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Some protectors, adjacent to appliances, must somehow 'block' or 'absorb' a surge. Series mode filters only do that. Therefore series mode filters are superb for 'blocking' or 'absorbing' noise.

Series mode filter manufacturers then discovered a market of naive consumers who 'know' only because someone recommended it - subjectively. Series mode filter manufacturers hype surge protection. Yes, if a surge is so tiny as to not harm any appliance.

Meanwhile a transient that causes damage is a constant current transient. That means voltage increases as necessary to blow through anything inside that might foolishly 'block' or 'absorb' that surge. Effective protection was always - and is always - about conducting that current so that it creates no (near zero) voltage. That is not what a series mode filter or an adjacent protector can do.

Effective protection always answers this question. Where do hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate? No series mode filter will even discuss such numbers. Filters and MOV based protectors (adjacent to appliances) will not provide any such numbers because neither claims to protect from surges that do damage.

Meanwhile 'whole house' protectors (including those that have MOVs) come with numbers that claim protection from direct lightning strikes. Effective protection means direct lightning strikes with no damage to anything inside. Even a protector is not damaged.

Most are only educated by power conditioner, series mode or plug-in protectors claims. Always made without specification numbers. Therefore many assume nothing can protect from destructive surges such as lightning. They assume rather than learn, that for well over 100 years, direct lightning strikes without damage has been routine.

Protection is always about where hundreds of thousands of joules are harmlessly absorbed. No protector does protection. An effective protector connects hundreds of thousands of joules to what does protection. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. Series mode protectors have no earth ground. And will not discuss those hundreds of thousands of joules.
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Old 09-10-2017, 06:40 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by westom View Post
Protection is always about where hundreds of thousands of joules are harmlessly absorbed. No protector does protection. An effective protector connects hundreds of thousands of joules to what does protection. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. Series mode protectors have no earth ground. And will not discuss those hundreds of thousands of joules.

I spent some time reading a number of your previous posts across a few threads and I am inclined to believe you, which also means I must admit that I feel stupid for spending a grand on a Panamax in 2006. Well, I would rather admit to a mistake than to keep repeating it.

I will look into "whole house" protection, even though I am a renter. I have a really good landlord, too, so maybe this won't be so hard to accomplish.

I appreciate all of the responses since my first inquiry in this thread, but what you have written, as well as what the CNET article author said, have pretty much convinced me that "power conditioners" are an unnecessary and, therefore, exorbitant expense. All of those 2K to 5K joule surge protectors seem as effective as using aluminum foil as a bullet proof vest.

Thank you for the education, better late than never.

Last edited by Vilya; 09-10-2017 at 06:52 AM.
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Old 09-10-2017, 07:22 AM   #40
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I came across this article which recommends a cascading, or tiered, approach. It is worth reading all the way through.

https://www.stevejenkins.com/blog/20...ge-protection/

It suggests three tiers of protection:

"Type 1 SPDs are installed on the “line side” of your main service entrance, between the utility pole and your power meter, right where power comes into your house."

"A Type 2 SPD is installed at your “branch panel” (more commonly referred to as your breaker panel). It’s called your branch panel because it “branches” the power coming from your service panel out to all the circuits in your house."

"A Type 3 SPD is the one you’re probably already familiar with, such as a surge strip or battery backup unit with surge protection. Type 3s are used at the “point of use,” meaning you plug the device(s) you want to protect directly into an outlet on the Type 3 surge protector, then plug the surge protector into a standard power outlet."

The author of this article noted that installing a Type 1 involved the power company itself and that some utilities do not allow their installation. Using Type 2 and Type 3 SPDs are still recommended even if a Type 1 can not be used.

The author said this, too:

"a perfect comprehensive power protection strategy should incorporate a “cascading” approach — meaning you’ve got a “first-tier” of surge protection at your power meter, then a “second-tier” of protection at your distribution panel, and then a “third-tier” of protection where your devices plug in. Not coincidentally, these three tiers correspond to the three standard classifications of Surge Protective Device (SPD) types: Type 1, Type 2, and Type 3."

The article is quite interesting, has pictures and videos, and makes specific product recommendations, many of which forum member westom named in some of his earlier posts. It includes comments, too.

Ironically, this comprehensive two, or three, tiered protection can be professionally installed for less than the price of a single high-end home theater power conditioner that offers very limited protection to only those few things plugged into it.

Last edited by Vilya; 09-10-2017 at 08:17 AM.
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