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Old 09-10-2017, 09:53 PM   #41
westom westom is offline
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Originally Posted by Vilya View Post
I came across this article which recommends a cascading, or tiered, approach. It is worth reading all the way through.
Include many facts that change a conclusion as soon as we include numbers. Perspective must always exist in every recommendation.

Start with Type. That number says nothing about protection. That number is about protecting human life from grossly undersized protectors. It also does not discuss the only item that defines protection. Protectors never do protection. Protectors are effective as their connection to and quality of earth ground. Where was that mentioned?

Cascading is about what does the protection. That is never a protector. That is always about what does protection. Cascading is defined by an item that will harmlessly absorb hundreds of thousands of joules. Show me any protector that claims to do that?

Some layers of protection have no protectors. But every protection layer always - as in always - has an earth ground. Any protector that does not have an earth ground (ie one plugged into a wall receptacle) is not a protection layer. It only protects from a completely different type of surge that is typically not destructive. That is already made irrelevant by superior protection already inside appliances.

So again, where does that citation discuss numbers such as joules? A trend every adult must eventually learn in life. Any recommendation without perspective (ie numbers) is always best ignored or held suspect.

So - cascade: inspect a 'primary' surge protection layer. Pictures (not text) in this citation displays what in the primary protection layer must be inspected - what provides that protection. View pictures about half way down after the expression "more safety hazards":
http://www.fpl-fraud.com/

A 'secondary' layer is defined by a single point earth ground that you have provided and maintained. Why did that citation not define significance of all four words? For some reason, it assumes a protector somehow does protection. It does not. A protector is only a connecting device to what does protection.

View your TV cable wire. Where is that protector? None installed or required. That cable company is required to provide effective protection. A hardwire must connect that cable on a low impedance (ie less than 10 foot) path to single point earth ground.

Telephone cannot connect directly to earth. So a telco must install (for free) a protector to make that same low impedance (ie wire has no sharp bends) connection from each telco wire to earth. That protector is only doing what an above hardwire (without protector) does better. Only item that absorbs massive joules is a layer of protection.

What can happen if a protector is too far from earth ground and too close to appliances? It can earth that surge destructively through appliances. Manufacturers forget to mention that. But again, what is protection? The path so that hundreds of thousands of joules dissipate harmlessly and outside. The path that must not be anywhere inside.

Did they forget to list 'sensitive' appliances? These include a dishwasher, dimmer switches, furnace, LED & CFL bulbs, refrigerator, door bell, GFCIs, central air conditioner, vacuum cleaner, smoke detectors, garage door opener, microwave oven, stove, etc. Many of these are at greater risk than the more robust computers. How is a plug-in protector installed on a dishwasher, dimmer switches, central air, GFCIs, and the most critical item if a surge exists - smoke detectors? It isn't. Put that money into upgrading what actually does protection - connection to and quality of single point earth ground.

Even a wire to a lawn sprinkler system or invisible dog fence must be included in that protection 'system'. Where did the citation discuss any of this?

It shows protectors that failed. Failed means it did ineffective protection. Failed means appliances had to (and successfully) protect themselves. If that surge current is incoming, then a same current at the same time is also outgoing via that appliances. Protection is never about something 'blocking', 'absorbing', or burning. Effective protection always means nobody even knew a surge existed. Again, numbers apply.

Those protectors were grossly undersized. For example, lightning is typically 20,000 amps. So a minimal 'whole house' protector is 50,000 amps. Where were critical numbers discussed? Again and again, if the recommendation does not come with numbers, then it is best ignored as if misinformed or maybe even a scam.

Even Type 1, Type 2, etc (that only define human protection) is confused as if a Type number defines appliance protection. It does not.

Yes, that citation does make some very good but only subjective recommendations. Recommendations take on a different twist once we include facts such as numbers and 'what does lightning seek'. For well over 100 years, protection has always been by the item that harmlessly absorbs hundreds of thousands of joules. Protectors without a low impedance connect do not even discuss this concept and numbers. A protector (each layer of protection) is only as effective as its earth ground. That defines cascaded protection.

Renting creates a problem. You cannot install that protection. But you can buy that protector and have the landlord install it. Especially since he probably wants to protect his appliances. Or rent one from the AC utility. Landlord has no say about that.

Last edited by westom; 09-10-2017 at 09:57 PM.
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Old 09-11-2017, 01:25 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by westom View Post
Some protectors, adjacent to appliances, must somehow 'block' or 'absorb' a surge. Series mode filters only do that. Therefore series mode filters are superb for 'blocking' or 'absorbing' noise.

Series mode filter manufacturers then discovered a market of naive consumers who 'know' only because someone recommended it - subjectively. Series mode filter manufacturers hype surge protection. Yes, if a surge is so tiny as to not harm any appliance.

Meanwhile a transient that causes damage is a constant current transient. That means voltage increases as necessary to blow through anything inside that might foolishly 'block' or 'absorb' that surge. Effective protection was always - and is always - about conducting that current so that it creates no (near zero) voltage. That is not what a series mode filter or an adjacent protector can do.

Effective protection always answers this question. Where do hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate? No series mode filter will even discuss such numbers. Filters and MOV based protectors (adjacent to appliances) will not provide any such numbers because neither claims to protect from surges that do damage.

Meanwhile 'whole house' protectors (including those that have MOVs) come with numbers that claim protection from direct lightning strikes. Effective protection means direct lightning strikes with no damage to anything inside. Even a protector is not damaged.

Most are only educated by power conditioner, series mode or plug-in protectors claims. Always made without specification numbers. Therefore many assume nothing can protect from destructive surges such as lightning. They assume rather than learn, that for well over 100 years, direct lightning strikes without damage has been routine.

Protection is always about where hundreds of thousands of joules are harmlessly absorbed. No protector does protection. An effective protector connects hundreds of thousands of joules to what does protection. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. Series mode protectors have no earth ground. And will not discuss those hundreds of thousands of joules.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vilya View Post
I spent some time reading a number of your previous posts across a few threads and I am inclined to believe you, which also means I must admit that I feel stupid for spending a grand on a Panamax in 2006. Well, I would rather admit to a mistake than to keep repeating it.

I will look into "whole house" protection, even though I am a renter. I have a really good landlord, too, so maybe this won't be so hard to accomplish.

I appreciate all of the responses since my first inquiry in this thread, but what you have written, as well as what the CNET article author said, have pretty much convinced me that "power conditioners" are an unnecessary and, therefore, exorbitant expense. All of those 2K to 5K joule surge protectors seem as effective as using aluminum foil as a bullet proof vest.

Thank you for the education, better late than never.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vilya View Post
I came across this article which recommends a cascading, or tiered, approach. It is worth reading all the way through.

https://www.stevejenkins.com/blog/20...ge-protection/

It suggests three tiers of protection:

"Type 1 SPDs are installed on the “line side” of your main service entrance, between the utility pole and your power meter, right where power comes into your house."

"A Type 2 SPD is installed at your “branch panel” (more commonly referred to as your breaker panel). It’s called your branch panel because it “branches” the power coming from your service panel out to all the circuits in your house."

"A Type 3 SPD is the one you’re probably already familiar with, such as a surge strip or battery backup unit with surge protection. Type 3s are used at the “point of use,” meaning you plug the device(s) you want to protect directly into an outlet on the Type 3 surge protector, then plug the surge protector into a standard power outlet."

The author of this article noted that installing a Type 1 involved the power company itself and that some utilities do not allow their installation. Using Type 2 and Type 3 SPDs are still recommended even if a Type 1 can not be used.

The author said this, too:

"a perfect comprehensive power protection strategy should incorporate a “cascading” approach — meaning you’ve got a “first-tier” of surge protection at your power meter, then a “second-tier” of protection at your distribution panel, and then a “third-tier” of protection where your devices plug in. Not coincidentally, these three tiers correspond to the three standard classifications of Surge Protective Device (SPD) types: Type 1, Type 2, and Type 3."

The article is quite interesting, has pictures and videos, and makes specific product recommendations, many of which forum member westom named in some of his earlier posts. It includes comments, too.

Ironically, this comprehensive two, or three, tiered protection can be professionally installed for less than the price of a single high-end home theater power conditioner that offers very limited protection to only those few things plugged into it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by westom View Post
Include many facts that change a conclusion as soon as we include numbers. Perspective must always exist in every recommendation.

Start with Type. That number says nothing about protection. That number is about protecting human life from grossly undersized protectors. It also does not discuss the only item that defines protection. Protectors never do protection. Protectors are effective as their connection to and quality of earth ground. Where was that mentioned?

Cascading is about what does the protection. That is never a protector. That is always about what does protection. Cascading is defined by an item that will harmlessly absorb hundreds of thousands of joules. Show me any protector that claims to do that?

Some layers of protection have no protectors. But every protection layer always - as in always - has an earth ground. Any protector that does not have an earth ground (ie one plugged into a wall receptacle) is not a protection layer. It only protects from a completely different type of surge that is typically not destructive. That is already made irrelevant by superior protection already inside appliances.

So again, where does that citation discuss numbers such as joules? A trend every adult must eventually learn in life. Any recommendation without perspective (ie numbers) is always best ignored or held suspect.

So - cascade: inspect a 'primary' surge protection layer. Pictures (not text) in this citation displays what in the primary protection layer must be inspected - what provides that protection. View pictures about half way down after the expression "more safety hazards":
http://www.fpl-fraud.com/

A 'secondary' layer is defined by a single point earth ground that you have provided and maintained. Why did that citation not define significance of all four words? For some reason, it assumes a protector somehow does protection. It does not. A protector is only a connecting device to what does protection.

View your TV cable wire. Where is that protector? None installed or required. That cable company is required to provide effective protection. A hardwire must connect that cable on a low impedance (ie less than 10 foot) path to single point earth ground.

Telephone cannot connect directly to earth. So a telco must install (for free) a protector to make that same low impedance (ie wire has no sharp bends) connection from each telco wire to earth. That protector is only doing what an above hardwire (without protector) does better. Only item that absorbs massive joules is a layer of protection.

What can happen if a protector is too far from earth ground and too close to appliances? It can earth that surge destructively through appliances. Manufacturers forget to mention that. But again, what is protection? The path so that hundreds of thousands of joules dissipate harmlessly and outside. The path that must not be anywhere inside.

Did they forget to list 'sensitive' appliances? These include a dishwasher, dimmer switches, furnace, LED & CFL bulbs, refrigerator, door bell, GFCIs, central air conditioner, vacuum cleaner, smoke detectors, garage door opener, microwave oven, stove, etc. Many of these are at greater risk than the more robust computers. How is a plug-in protector installed on a dishwasher, dimmer switches, central air, GFCIs, and the most critical item if a surge exists - smoke detectors? It isn't. Put that money into upgrading what actually does protection - connection to and quality of single point earth ground.

Even a wire to a lawn sprinkler system or invisible dog fence must be included in that protection 'system'. Where did the citation discuss any of this?

It shows protectors that failed. Failed means it did ineffective protection. Failed means appliances had to (and successfully) protect themselves. If that surge current is incoming, then a same current at the same time is also outgoing via that appliances. Protection is never about something 'blocking', 'absorbing', or burning. Effective protection always means nobody even knew a surge existed. Again, numbers apply.

Those protectors were grossly undersized. For example, lightning is typically 20,000 amps. So a minimal 'whole house' protector is 50,000 amps. Where were critical numbers discussed? Again and again, if the recommendation does not come with numbers, then it is best ignored as if misinformed or maybe even a scam.

Even Type 1, Type 2, etc (that only define human protection) is confused as if a Type number defines appliance protection. It does not.

Yes, that citation does make some very good but only subjective recommendations. Recommendations take on a different twist once we include facts such as numbers and 'what does lightning seek'. For well over 100 years, protection has always been by the item that harmlessly absorbs hundreds of thousands of joules. Protectors without a low impedance connect do not even discuss this concept and numbers. A protector (each layer of protection) is only as effective as its earth ground. That defines cascaded protection.

Renting creates a problem. You cannot install that protection. But you can buy that protector and have the landlord install it. Especially since he probably wants to protect his appliances. Or rent one from the AC utility. Landlord has no say about that.


I'll respond to all of this when I have time. That said, you should pump the brakes Vilya. weston seems to have some axe to grind, especially with series mode surge protection companies, and likes to provide hyperbole, misinformation, and fear mongering.
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Old 09-11-2017, 04:52 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMill View Post
I'll respond to all of this when I have time. That said, you should pump the brakes Vilya. weston seems to have some axe to grind, especially with series mode surge protection companies, and likes to provide hyperbole, misinformation, and fear mongering.
I look forward to reading your response and I appreciate your taking the time to do so.
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Old 09-15-2017, 08:17 AM   #44
GunZenBomZ GunZenBomZ is offline
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Spend some cash physically protecting your gear. Rather than like some people or individuals rejoice in pointing out 'an insurance policy' will work. However as we all know pieces of paper have clauses & small print. And they love to use trickery too avoid helping victims. Been proactive is far more calming than relying on an invisible friend.

A direct lightening strike is highly doubtful. I use two large APC surge protection units that take over in two milliseconds. One is used for projector & receiver, the other music-server, bluray player & satellite box etc. APC Smart-UPS 3000VA

You might want to read this thread also.
https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=283318

Last edited by GunZenBomZ; 09-15-2017 at 03:39 PM.
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Old 09-15-2017, 01:56 PM   #45
westom westom is offline
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I use a magic wand to protect my appliances. That proves a magic wand is best protection? Of course not. But it is recommended using the same (subjective) logic that recommends an APC UPS.

No numbers is a first indication that a scam is promoted. In that previous discussion, so many made recommendations also by ignoring all numbers.

How many joules does that UPS claim to absorb? Even less than an undersized power strip protector. Marketed as a surge protector only to the many who ignore numbers. Lying is quite legal in color glossy sales brochures. But not in numeric specifications. So that brochure says it is an effective surge protector - specifications do not.

How does he know that APC UPS does anything? How many other appliances (not on that UPS) have suffered damage? Apparently none. Superior protection is already inside receivers, servers, and satellite boxes. What protected less robust dimmer switches, toaster, refrigerator, GFCIs, smoke detectors, CFL and LED bulbs, and garage door opener? Did invisible protectors protect them?

That APC will switch over in 2 milliseconds. Destructive surges (lightning is one of many types) are done in microseconds. One provided APC number (2 milliseconds) says it is ineffective protection. Hundreds of consecutive surges would exist before that APC responded.

No magic box (ie UPS) or wand does this protection. Protection is defined by a solution that answers this question. Where do hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate? That UPS only claims to absorb hundreds (near zero) joules. Which devices are effective? A protector is only as effective as its earth ground (which is clearly not a wall receptacle safety ground). UPS has no such connection; does not even claim to provide hardware protection.

UPS protection is: temporary and 'dirty' power to protect unsaved data.
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Old 09-15-2017, 03:41 PM   #46
GunZenBomZ GunZenBomZ is offline
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Tl;dr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gunzenbomz View Post
do not answer a fool according to his folly...
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Old 09-15-2017, 05:43 PM   #47
westom westom is offline
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The naive and easily brainwashed are quickly identified. They post insults.

An intelligent person (ie who reads spec numbers) knows a UPS does not protect hardware But advertising claims otherwise. Therefore it must be true. Brainwashing works.

Defined with numbers is what does and does not protect hardware. And what informed homeowners inspect to protect all household appliances. APC does not discuss any of that - to protect profits.
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Old 09-16-2017, 12:37 PM   #48
GunZenBomZ GunZenBomZ is offline
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Lets summarize what you have stated in at least six threads along the same subject.

Buy insurance; ignore power conditioners, ignore back up generators, ignore uninterrupted power supplies. All are worthless compared to a few dollars insurance policy.


That is in its most basic succinct form what you espouse time & time again. Maybe you can save readers of this forum time by posting my synopsis of your opinionated stance.

Last edited by GunZenBomZ; 09-16-2017 at 12:46 PM.
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Old 09-16-2017, 12:59 PM   #49
GunZenBomZ GunZenBomZ is offline
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(further condensed opinions from westoms posts on this subject matter)

So people are been somehow fooled into at least protecting their bulb of the projector by having in-line power protection either a conditioner or dual UPS device. Anyone who has back-up power is causing themselves more trouble as 'sine wave' generators don't really produce a clean computer, high-end AV kit electrical signal/power supply.

All of these perspectives are yours westom that you dictate too other people on blurayforums. All they have too do is read through the six threads on this subject matter you've posted by searching your posts & devouring the closed minded view you have adopted.

Again I'm more dumbfounded by my own energy been wasted replying to someone who prefers to belittle peoples learning curve towards protecting finite AV-gear. You certainly have the right too give an opinion but now that you've marked me as naive et cetra; you don't get out of this chit-chat without been labelled the class clown I'm afraid.

Last edited by GunZenBomZ; 09-16-2017 at 01:12 PM.
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Old 09-16-2017, 02:32 PM   #50
westom westom is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GunZenBomZ View Post
=You certainly have the right too give an opinion but now that you've marked me as naive et cetra; you don't get out of this chit-chat without been labelled the class clown I'm afraid.
Posting technical ignorance is unhelpful. Emotions also are irrelevant. If personal beliefs are challenged, then a responsible adult can post technical numbers to justify that recommendation. You don't for one simple reason. Your recommendations are based only in fables. If what you posted was known, then manufacturer specification appear in your posts.

No numbers were posted because - and this is the bottom line - you only recite what others first told you to believe. Then get emotional when that obvious misinformation is exposed.

How does a UPS, that takes 2 milliseconds to respond (your only number), protect from something that is done in microseconds? Asked before. Asked again because your answer is the classic emotional meltdown: attack the messenger.

I never recommended insurance. Please read what was written; not what your emotions want to see. Recommended are effective solutions to protect hardware for many times less money. A best one typically costs about $1 per protected appliance - tens or a hundred times less money. If any appliance needs protection, then all need that protection. Exposed are urban myths recommended only when one 'feels' it must work. No insurance was recommended no matter how often emotions want to see what was never posted.

APC recommended by GunZenBomZ is temporary and 'dirty' power so that unsaved data can be saved. It does not claim hardware protection. It does nothing more, no matter how often the naive misrepresent it as hardware protection.

Somehow its 2 millisecond response time will avert anomalies that are done in microseconds? Amazing how the naive know otherwise because hearsay and subjective reasoning assumed something different.

One has a meltdown when myths were exposed. That somehow proves a magic wand also is best protection? One posts insults because what he recommended is suspect and bogus. Magic wands and boxes are ineffective once we include numbers.

Last edited by westom; 09-16-2017 at 02:38 PM.
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Old 09-16-2017, 02:42 PM   #51
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You are clearly unhinged & I'll leave it as that.
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Old 09-16-2017, 08:22 PM   #52
westom westom is offline
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Originally Posted by GunZenBomZ View Post
You are clearly unhinged & I'll leave it as that.
Fact do not change because you dislike them. Demonstrated again is what the naive always do when confronted by reality and numbers. Insult others. As if insults prove honesty.

How does a UPS, that takes 2 milliseconds, respond to (protect from) a surge that does damage in microseconds? How does a millimeters gap in its relay block what three miles of sky could not? Reality, exposing obvious dishonesty, results in more cheapshot attacks.

Many, who are emotional, automatically believe a first thing told. Then get nasty when facts and numbers describe reality. That UPS does not do and does not claim to do protection that he was ordered to believe and promote.

OP asked:
Quote:
I don't have much long-term experience with higher end voltage/surge protection devices, and would love to hear some feedback as to their effectiveness...or lack of.
If anything needs that protection, then all appliances need that protection. For well over 100 years, facilities that cannot have damage used a well proven 'whole house' solution. For a homeowner, it costs about $1 per protected appliance. It comes with numbers that defines protection even from direct lightning strikes. To even protect that 'near zero joule' UPS. Then nobody knew a surge existed. Then protection remains functional for decades even after many direct lightning strikes.

All that distinguished by manufacturer specification numbers from companies known by any guy for their integrity. Recommended by someone here who has been doing this stuff for decades. But who is attacked as unhinged by another who is only emotional and naive. Who does not post spec numbers - a first indication of dishonesty. He demonstrates why so many foolishly recommend a UPS for appliance protection.

Last edited by westom; 09-17-2017 at 02:07 PM.
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Old 09-18-2017, 10:52 PM   #53
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Guys, here's a question:

We're gonna be getting a new large 4K set soon, and I wanted to take the opportunity to upgrade our power protection source (right now, we're running a Monster PowerCenter strip/bar/block that sits on the floor behind the entertainment center). I wanted to purchase a "component"-style power conditioner, one which sits with the rest of the gear (i.e. not a power bar that sits on the floor), so would someone be able to recommend a good one at a good price?

Monster? Furman? APC?
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Old 09-18-2017, 11:26 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IntelliVolume View Post
I wanted to purchase a "component"-style power conditioner, one which sits with the rest of the gear (i.e. not a power bar that sits on the floor), so would someone be able to recommend a good one at a good price?
So you want a 2 cm protector part that will somehow block what three miles of sky cannot. Did you only read posts that discuss specification numbers?

Best and effective protection costs about $1 per protected appliance. Furthermore, if any of those component need protection, then so do so many less robust appliances. What protects them?
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Old 09-18-2017, 11:30 PM   #55
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Anyone else?
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Old 09-19-2017, 12:21 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IntelliVolume View Post
Guys, here's a question:

We're gonna be getting a new large 4K set soon, and I wanted to take the opportunity to upgrade our power protection source (right now, we're running a Monster PowerCenter strip/bar/block that sits on the floor behind the entertainment center). I wanted to purchase a "component"-style power conditioner, one which sits with the rest of the gear (i.e. not a power bar that sits on the floor), so would someone be able to recommend a good one at a good price?

Monster? Furman? APC?

Quote:
Originally Posted by westom View Post
So you want a 2 cm protector part that will somehow block what three miles of sky cannot. Did you only read posts that discuss specification numbers?

Best and effective protection costs about $1 per protected appliance. Furthermore, if any of those component need protection, then so do so many less robust appliances. What protects them?

Quote:
Originally Posted by IntelliVolume View Post
Anyone else?

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Old 09-19-2017, 12:36 AM   #57
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Old 09-19-2017, 12:36 AM   #58
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Anyone else with any suggestions for "component"-based protectors/conditioners?
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Old 09-19-2017, 03:14 AM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IntelliVolume View Post
Anyone else with any suggestions for "component"-based protectors/conditioners?
Protection as done even over 100 years ago is provided by companies known by any 'guy' for their integrity. These include Intermatic, Square D, Ditek, Siemens, Polyphaser (an industry benchmark), Syscom, Keison, Clipsal, Leviton, ABB, Delta, Erico, General Electric, and Cutler-Hammer (Eaton).

Then view their spec numbers. Potentially destructive surges (ie lightning) can be 20,000 amps. So a 'whole house' protector, with a low impedance connection to earth, is rated at least 50,000 amps. Then the protector remains effective. Even protects inferior and many times more expensive products from Furman, Monster, and APC.

This is the routine solution found in every facility that cannot have damage.
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Old 09-19-2017, 03:38 AM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by westom View Post
Protection as done even over 100 years ago is provided by companies known by any 'guy' for their integrity. These include Intermatic, Square D, Ditek, Siemens, Polyphaser (an industry benchmark), Syscom, Keison, Clipsal, Leviton, ABB, Delta, Erico, General Electric, and Cutler-Hammer (Eaton).

Then view their spec numbers. Potentially destructive surges (ie lightning) can be 20,000 amps. So a 'whole house' protector, with a low impedance connection to earth, is rated at least 50,000 amps. Then the protector remains effective. Even protects inferior and many times more expensive products from Furman, Monster, and APC.

This is the routine solution found in every facility that cannot have damage.
So what are you suggesting?
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