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Old 03-13-2015, 06:12 PM   #2941
GoldMotel GoldMotel is online now
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Who knows why Fox isn't even going to the original production team, who actually took notes on what to fix for a 16:9 "Buffy". You'd think it's be obvious, but I guess not.

I mean, they are just hurting their reputation with the current botched versions. Hopefully, these are very very very rough versions.

Regardless of whether a blu-ray release comes out in 16:9 or 4:3, the other AR should still be available in some form in HD (like how Lost in Space is releasing the show in 4:3 on blu but the digital releases are 16:9).
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Old 03-13-2015, 06:25 PM   #2942
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chip75 View Post
Yes, they need 16:9 to sell to buyers that have HD channels with slots to fill but they're not anywhere as demanding of the presentation as Blu-ray buyers will be. FOX could make 4:3 versions and crop a 16:9 image out of them and most viewers wouldn't notice or care, a lot of shows are shown like this and hundreds a movies a week are cropped when shown on TV. For the later seasons they could show the seasons that are capable of displaying more information on the sides, whilst still offering 4:3 BDs.

I don't hear many people asking for Citizen Cane or The Wizard of Oz to be presented in 16:9. The Wizard of Oz seems to attract new and old fans, with each new release, with equal enthusiasm.

If FOX thought it had 6 billion potential customers we would have seen a Blu-ray release already ...

At the end of the day the widescreen versions seem to be a pain in the arse to do correctly, unless they throw money at them. The 4:3 versions just don't need as much work and would be simple to do, just look at what the mess they've done trying to make the 16:9 versions. I'm all for fans having choices, but how much crap are they willing to put up with, just because they perceive 16:9 as more cinematic?

16:9 is fine if it's done correctly, but if it's going to compromise on the quality of the show, then they'd better present the 4:3 versions along side it!
For better or worse we're entering a new pan and scan age where thing are cropped to fill a 16:9 screen. Look at HBO movies, cropped from 2.40:1 to fill the screen, or TV shows like The Wire and X-Files. I would guess studios also think one reason Star Trek TNG sold poorly on blu is because it was 4:3, accurate or not.

Movies are still seen as more important than TV, so this hasn't happened to classic films yet, but I bet it does eventually,especially on broadcast and streaming.

Whedon might have enough say to keep Buffy 4:3 in a possible future release, but I doubt it. We'll have to see though. Personally I bet it never comes to BD at all anyway.
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Old 03-13-2015, 06:49 PM   #2943
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StingingVelvet View Post
For better or worse we're entering a new pan and scan age where thing are cropped to fill a 16:9 screen. Look at HBO movies, cropped from 2.40:1 to fill the screen, or TV shows like The Wire and X-Files. I would guess studios also think one reason Star Trek TNG sold poorly on blu is because it was 4:3, accurate or not.
The part about the X-Files is rubbish. Lost was photographed the same way as the X-Files but there aren't people complaining that Lost should have been released on Blu-ray as 4x3. I started watching Lost in standard def and bought by first HD set during the middle of season 3 and never missed the 4x3 frame that I was watching before.

The revelation that the Buffy post production was making notes for 16x9 only brings more legitimacy to those that prefer that version.
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Old 03-13-2015, 07:00 PM   #2944
StingingVelvet StingingVelvet is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iaragorn1 View Post
The part about the X-Files is rubbish. Lost was photographed the same way as the X-Files but there aren't people complaining that Lost should have been released on Blu-ray as 4x3. I started watching Lost in standard def and bought by first HD set during the middle of season 3 and never missed the 4x3 frame that I was watching before.

The revelation that the Buffy post production was making notes for 16x9 only brings more legitimacy to those that prefer that version.
Don't want to bring that argument into this thread but you can tell simply by looking at screenshots that X-Files was shot for 4:3. Same with Buffy. Things should be released as they were designed and composed for mainly. Cinematogaphy matters.

Lost was probably designed for both at once, same as broadcast shows still are today, believe it or not.
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Old 03-13-2015, 07:12 PM   #2945
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Originally Posted by chip75 View Post
New to the show, why would they even care on how a show they've never heard of is presented? Why should FOX even cater to them, if it upsets the people that are actually interested in buying the show (again)?



Yes, they need 16:9 to sell to buyers that have HD channels with slots to fill but they're not anywhere as demanding of the presentation as Blu-ray buyers will be. FOX could make 4:3 versions and crop a 16:9 image out of them and most viewers wouldn't notice or care, a lot of shows are shown like this and hundreds a movies a week are cropped when shown on TV. For the later seasons they could show the seasons that are capable of displaying more information on the sides, whilst still offering 4:3 BDs.

I don't hear many people asking for Citizen Cane or The Wizard of Oz to be presented in 16:9. The Wizard of Oz seems to attract new and old fans, with each new release, with equal enthusiasm.

If FOX thought it had 6 billion potential customers we would have seen a Blu-ray release already ...

At the end of the day the widescreen versions seem to be a pain in the arse to do correctly, unless they throw money at them. The 4:3 versions just don't need as much work and would be simple to do, just look at what the mess they've done trying to make the 16:9 versions. I'm all for fans having choices, but how much crap are they willing to put up with, just because they perceive 16:9 as more cinematic?

16:9 is fine if it's done correctly, but if it's going to compromise on the quality of the show, then they'd better present the 4:3 versions along side it!
Don't misinterpreted my post, I don't like what I am seeing on Pivot either. I'm one of those that will just be happy to see it on blu in 16:9 or 4:3, though I would rather not see that Pivot mess on any physical media.

My post was just trying to explain Fox's mentality, and why forum posters should not fall out over it, because Fox is gonna do whatever makes them the most cash, and pleasing 50 or so purists is not going to do that.
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Old 03-13-2015, 08:07 PM   #2946
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StingingVelvet View Post
Don't want to bring that argument into this thread but you can tell simply by looking at screenshots that X-Files was shot for 4:3. Same with Buffy. Things should be released as they were designed and composed for mainly. Cinematogaphy matters.

Lost was probably designed for both at once, same as broadcast shows still are today, believe it or not.
Chip has been posting season 3 screen shots https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.p...postcount=4263 and any differences are subtle and what if any differences that there are could be based on many things during the remaster. The X-Files cinematographer states that he shot the X-Files and Lost the same way.
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Old 03-13-2015, 09:07 PM   #2947
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StingingVelvet View Post
Lost was probably designed for both at once, same as broadcast shows still are today, believe it or not.
The Big Bang Theory is composed for 4:3, protected for 16:9. Generally speaking most show are the same. I occasionally see things that are composed for 16:9 but they aren't that common and it's only a few shots in an episode. I think there are only a handful of true 16:9 shows out there.

You could probably keep a pad by your TV and jot them down but you wouldn't go through that many pages!

I just picked a random title, with screen captures from the site reviews and you can see below that it's 4:3 and protected for 16:9. They're from Once Upon A Time's Season Two.



7 more pictures under the Spoiler tab ...

[Show spoiler]







I think the most important thing is that the show's artistic integrity isn't hurt if they change the ratio. I think that's something all of us agree on!
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Old 03-13-2015, 10:07 PM   #2948
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I think a lot of cable shows are filmed for 16:9 now. It's the core broadcast channels that still keep 4:3 in mind, because they have a ton of older viewers with archaic televisions.
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Old 03-13-2015, 11:39 PM   #2949
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Originally Posted by lstar337 View Post
If it is, then it will not be something anybody new wants to see.
That conclusion is without evidence. There is no way you can possibly show proof (because it doesn't exist) that if you showed Buffy in 4:3 to a person who hadn't seen it before, they would refuse to watch it in 4:3.

They might refuse to watch it not in HD... but I've not seen anyone refuse to watch HD in 4:3 if the content was good.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lstar337 View Post
Like the fact or not, Fox is doing this to make money. A 16:9 release will appeal to a larger customer base than a 4:3 release.
Again, no way to prove that assertion. Buffy is going to have limited appeal no matter what. People who have heard of it might not all want to buy it... People who haven't heard of it will need to watch it first.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lstar337 View Post
The Buffy fan base is minuscule compared to the rest of the world population, and not even the entire fan base cares about the OAR!

If you were Fox would you want a potential customer base of 6 Billion, or 600?
Random numbers pulled from nowhere mean nothing. The potential customer base is always maxed at the population of the planet! The actual realistic customer base is always also much smaller than that... regardless of the content or format.

FOX also sells perhaps their most popular show (The Simpsons) in 4:3 Blu-rays... IF they thought that there was a significant sales uptick to do that in 16x9 they would be doing that... but they know people who like the show already want to see what the show is supposed to look like, and new fans will like it that was as well if they enjoy the show.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lstar337 View Post
Also, no station/network would want to buy Buffy in 4:3 either! To be honest, given that Pivot (a tiny station that most people have never heard of) have it, there clearly wasn't much demand for it anyway.
That's a different argument... if they can't sell the show, format isn't going to matter.

You can't say with any certainty, though, that networks aren't buying Buffy because it is in 4:3 or because it isn't in HD. There's too much content available out there to make a flip conclusion like that. It would be equally unwise to assume that an HD transfer of Buffy would suddenly sell like gangbusters.

I like the show... but it doesn't have that huge of a following... not really. It's always been a cult thing. By a wide margin, most of the world doesn't know Buffy from the nightly news.
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Old 03-14-2015, 12:08 AM   #2950
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My 11 year old niece started watching Buffy in 4:3 on Netflix about 4 months ago and loves it. But like me, after seeing some episodes on a streaming site, me on Netflix before they switched and her on Amazon Prime, in 16:9 she loves it more that way. And even after pointing out all the 16:9 stuff and that the creator wants it to stay 4:3, she still loves the 16:9 versions.
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Old 03-15-2015, 03:33 PM   #2951
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Originally Posted by chip75 View Post
I just picked a random title, with screen captures from the site reviews and you can see below that it's 4:3 and protected for 16:9. They're from Once Upon A Time's Season Two.



7 more pictures under the Spoiler tab ...

[Show spoiler]







I think the most important thing is that the show's artistic integrity isn't hurt if they change the ratio. I think that's something all of us agree on!
How have you determined that it is "composed for 4:3, protected for 16:9" rather than "composed for 16:9, protected for 4:3"?
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Old 03-15-2015, 04:09 PM   #2952
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I wonder if Fox will send a corrected version of the episodes to Pivot soon. If it's done one day of course. Too bad Filmon does not work right now (again!). I would have checked myself.
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Old 03-15-2015, 04:19 PM   #2953
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DragonQ View Post
How have you determined that it is "composed for 4:3, protected for 16:9" rather than "composed for 16:9, protected for 4:3"?
It's composed for 4:3. You don't compose for 16:9 and protect for 4:3, that's not a thing, but I know what you mean (I've posted something similar in the past). You always compose for the narrowest ratio, whilst protecting for the wider one.
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Old 03-15-2015, 07:54 PM   #2954
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Originally Posted by Buffdale View Post
I wonder if Fox will send a corrected version of the episodes to Pivot soon. If it's done one day of course. Too bad Filmon does not work right now (again!). I would have checked myself.
If they ever correct it (that's a big "if"), I doubt that would happen. Maybe they would send those 'new corrected' masters out for new syndication deals, but they wouldn't bother with Pivot.
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Old 03-16-2015, 02:32 PM   #2955
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I finally took a look at the video displaying the framing and color problems and all I have to say is, wow.

While I still believe that the series can be enjoyed in 4x3 or 16x9, it's clear that whatever company is responsible for this remaster is not doing as thorough a job as is needed to retain the original vison.

It is also especially disheartening that the original team went ahead and created 16x9 masters and those are not being utilized as part of the remastering process. Seems backwards to me when it regards such a beloved property.

Some of the mistakes weren't as glaring until I saw them in motion, which is when I was able to see the full impact.

What surprises me most is the coloring - how difficult would it have been to add a sunset filter, or to make the scenes in the dream episode blue? I sincerely hope that, like Friends, they are willing to go back and correct these issues prior to a potential Blu-ray release.
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Old 03-16-2015, 05:43 PM   #2956
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The Master is on our side!

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Old 03-16-2015, 06:27 PM   #2957
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iaragorn1 View Post
The revelation that the Buffy post production was making notes for 16x9 only brings more legitimacy to those that prefer that version.
Really ? Wow! Tell you what, I will wait for the guy who created the show and actually, you know, SHOT some episodes, to comment as opposed to a post production co-ordinator. Im sure he will set the record straight - no wait, he already has!!

Can we ask the gaffer and the caterers on set what they thought too ?

In all seriousness, I find his comments interesting and have no doubt that 16x9 is likely to be released for financial reasons only, but lets not pretend there is ANY legitimacy in a 16x9 release other than appealing to the masses at the expense of the correct AR and thats it! I can only hope that Fox at least have the respect to preserve a 4x3 version and keep it available.

And to a comment made earlier, if Whedon comes out and says, you know what an SD version is the only acceptable one for release, thats fine too. Still waiting on that though and he doesn't seem to be averse to a HD release, only commenting on the AR. Id appreciate a better DVD release though if thats the case.

Last edited by simonynwa; 03-16-2015 at 06:32 PM.
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Old 03-17-2015, 02:12 AM   #2958
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chip75 View Post
you can see below that it's 4:3 and protected for 16:9. They're from Once Upon A Time's Season Two.
What device in use today is 4:3? There's no one composing for a format that doesn't exist anymore!
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Old 03-17-2015, 02:19 AM   #2959
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Quote:
Originally Posted by willbfree View Post
What device in use today is 4:3? There's no one composing for a format that doesn't exist anymore!
And yet we can still see such examples, the most obvious being the credits in sitcoms like The Big Bang Theory which are squeezed in the center of the frame.
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Old 03-17-2015, 11:19 AM   #2960
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Quote:
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What device in use today is 4:3? There's no one composing for a format that doesn't exist anymore!
Old people watch broadcast television. Old people often have old TVs.
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