Speaker Placement and boundary problems

[Sir Terrence]

Originally Posted by prerich

And great advice Sir T. I would also like to bring up the use of direct vs bi/di-pole speakers. I know with a dipole the nulls should be at the ears of the listener (not in height - but the part of the speaker with no drivers should be pointed at the listening position). I have in effect turned one of my pairs of Def Techs into Dipoles vice Bipoles (I wired the rear drivers in reverse phase of the forward facing ones). I find that these type speakers provide a wider and more natural soundfiled and allow for higher placement vs. the direct speaker method. I believe this is why Dipoles where inmployed in HT - because most people would not have the room to deploy 12+ rear channels. I tend to think that direct radiating speakers in the rear may offer sonic pleasure to the main listener but to others seated in less than optimum places - will suffer (IMHO). Critical speaker placement is very necessary with Direct radiating speakers - especially in the rear.

The reason dipoles were used in the DPL days has more to do with the "stereo in head" HTE that occurs when direct radiators are placed to the sides of the listening position, and firing directly at the head with a mono signal. In order to get rid of this effect, the direct path to the ears has to be changed to a different position, which causes you to lose the spaciousness that side placement gives you. The rule is side placement supports more spaciousness, and rear placement emphasizes directional characteristics. Dipoles can be placed to the sides of the room to emphasize spaciousness, and because their drivers do not fire at the ears, you do not get the "stereo in the head" effect. Bandwidth is a problem for most dipoles, as they roll off the bottom end by design. IMO the only way direct radiators really work is if they're in multiples along the side and rear walls. The have to be specifically placed apart at certain distances to de-emphasize the "directness" of the speakers. They should never be pointed at the listening position like they are in theaters. This would produce the same effect as a couple of bipoles on the side walls.

Question T, because of all of the discrete channel information have we negated or ignored the value of bipole or dipole speakers exclusively in the the rear channels? I remember in the days of prologic (before specialized speakers for surround in the home market) I used to imploy direct radiating speakers and point them at the ceiling to difuse them. I will thank Bose for one thing - I remember using a pair of 301's in an early surround system that produced a believable effects channel that didn't beam at me - but at that time surround channels were not discrete. However, I can still see the benifit of using Bipoles or Dipole speakers. What's your take on this (For you know much more than I ).

The problem with dipoles with stereo surrounds are the very thing that made them effective with DPL. They turn everything into a spacious environment, even if that is not the intended effect. With split surrounds anything from a wide open field to a closet can be simulted by the use of reverb and echo, or mixing it dry mono. The small room effect cannot be effectively simulated with dipoles, because they scatter so much sound around they always sound spacious. With bipolar surrounds you have the best of both worlds, without their problem. Bipoles are effective with "direct" effects placement, and are good at spaciousness as well. They do not suffer from the too directness of monopoles, and they do not have the bass roll off of dipoles. You can create a wide open environment, and they will accurately reproduce it. You can created an intimate environment, and they will accurate convey that. You can never get good voice matching with dipoles surrounds, and monopole front speakers, because they are both working off principles that are in complete opposition to each other. You can get accurate timbre matching from bipole surrounds and monopole fronts because you are not screwing with the phase of the speaker. I choose to use four bipolar speakers for one of my system(my review system for this site) because of that very reason. They are the best of both worlds, without the compromise of either world.

[midrange]

There is a lot to read here and probably a lot of detail but here is just an easy quick tip to always have perfect stereo sound to each ear.

The Distance you are from the TV/RECEIVER, that is the distance the speakers should be spread apart.in all corners.

The sub, bass freq. travels where ever it wants. That you just move around till you find whats best. I have always found the sub towards rear facing tv in corner or behind couch throuws the best bass sound that spreads the whole room. (also depends on the room)

[Sir Terrence]

Originally Posted by midrange

There is a lot to read here and probably a lot of detail but here is just an easy quick tip to always have perfect stereo sound to each ear.

The Distance you are from the TV/RECEIVER, that is the distance the speakers should be spread apart.in all corners.

The problem with this advice is folks sit further away from the television than the required sitting distance for 1080p. Most folks sit anywhere from 9-12 ft away from their television, and spreading the speakers 9-12ft apart will cause the sound field to develope holes between channels. And you NEVER want to place main speakers anywhere near corners if you like a balanced overall output. Corner placement for the mains increases the bass too much and destroys the overall balance of the speaker itself. If possible, speakers should be at least 4ft away from any walls to reduce speaker/wall interaction to the bass frequencies. The further they are away, the more improved imaging will be as well.

The sub, bass freq. travels where ever it wants. That you just move around till you find whats best. I have always found the sub towards rear facing tv in corner or behind couch throuws the best bass sound that spreads the whole room. (also depends on the room)

A BIG caveat with that last set of words.

[Big Daddy]

Originally Posted by midrange

The sub, bass freq. travels where ever it wants.

It is not a random thing. There is a scientific explanation behind the travel of bass frequencies. If you have the the time and patience, read A Guide to Subwoofers (Part II): Standing Waves & Room Modes.

[prerich]

Originally Posted by Sir Terrence

The reason dipoles were used in the DPL days has more to do with the "stereo in head" HTE that occurs when direct radiators are placed to the sides of the listening position, and firing directly at the head with a mono signal. In order to get rid of this effect, the direct path to the ears has to be changed to a different position, which causes you to lose the spaciousness that side placement gives you. The rule is side placement supports more spaciousness, and rear placement emphasizes directional characteristics. Dipoles can be placed to the sides of the room to emphasize spaciousness, and because their drivers do not fire at the ears, you do not get the "stereo in the head" effect. Bandwidth is a problem for most dipoles, as they roll off the bottom end by design. IMO the only way direct radiators really work is if they're in multiples along the side and rear walls. The have to be specifically placed apart at certain distances to de-emphasize the "directness" of the speakers. They should never be pointed at the listening position like they are in theaters. This would produce the same effect as a couple of bipoles on the side walls.



The problem with dipoles with stereo surrounds are the very thing that made them effective with DPL. They turn everything into a spacious environment, even if that is not the intended effect. With split surrounds anything from a wide open field to a closet can be simulted by the use of reverb and echo, or mixing it dry mono. The small room effect cannot be effectively simulated with dipoles, because they scatter so much sound around they always sound spacious. With bipolar surrounds you have the best of both worlds, without their problem. Bipoles are effective with "direct" effects placement, and are good at spaciousness as well. They do not suffer from the too directness of monopoles, and they do not have the bass roll off of dipoles. You can create a wide open environment, and they will accurately reproduce it. You can created an intimate environment, and they will accurate convey that. You can never get good voice matching with dipoles surrounds, and monopole front speakers, because they are both working off principles that are in complete opposition to each other. You can get accurate timbre matching from bipole surrounds and monopole fronts because you are not screwing with the phase of the speaker. I choose to use four bipolar speakers for one of my system(my review system for this site) because of that very reason. They are the best of both worlds, without the compromise of either world.

Excellent!!! It's something that you mentioned the bass rolloff in the dipoles (I have two subs attached to those speakers). You've answered my questions well - thank you!

[Big Daddy]

Originally Posted by prerich

Excellent!!! It's something that you mentioned the bass rolloff in the dipoles (I have two subs attached to those speakers). You've answered my questions well - thank you!

Prerich, go to A Guide to Bipolar, Dipolar, & Direct-Radiationg Speakers and look at the dispersion patterns for bipolar and dipolar speakers.

[dharma14]

Originally Posted by prerich

Your room is very difficult due to your seating area and arrangments. Is the recliner your main listening/viewing position?

Yeah, it is.

[dharma14]

Originally Posted by dharma14

Here is my bedroom right now. I'm getting these speakers http://www.htd.com/cabinet-speakers/...three-speakers. Where should I set all my speakers and sub?

I might be switching my room to this, I always watch my stuff in my chair. Give me tips on both setups. thanks

[Sir Terrence]

Originally Posted by dharma14

I might be switching my room to this, I always watch my stuff in my chair. Give me tips on both setups. thanks

The last picture is a much more acceptable setup than the other. I would work with that if you can do no better.

[prerich]

Originally Posted by Sir Terrence

The last picture is a much more acceptable setup than the other. I would work with that if you can do no better.

Agreed.

[prerich]

Originally Posted by Big Daddy

Prerich, go to A Guide to Bipolar, Dipolar, & Direct-Radiationg Speakers and look at the dispersion patterns for bipolar and dipolar speakers.

Good read

[Yeha-Noha]

Originally Posted by prerich

not movies....try 2 channel music.

I tried listening to some of my old rarely listened to 2.0 PCM CD music tracks with pure direct mode selected. I don't care for pure direct. It just doesn't sound better than having YPAO on and the PCM + PLxII Music decoder set in EXTD SUR to get 7.1 matrixed surround. The PCM 2.0 tracks on some of my opera BDs from Opus Arte sound ok in pure direct, but not better than the the 5.0 PCM tracks.

[ozzman]

Prerich for me this is the only place i think i can place them.I could hang my rears up in each corner but i don't think i would benefit from that

My back surrounds were more like a guess when i hung them.There just a little over 2 feet.Do you have any other options that maybe i could chew on.

Bringing the couch out and me putting the back surrounds on stands behind the couch isn't an option. Iam fighting for space for space


Just to let you know i have move up my rears slightly and straighten them up just a little pass my ears on both sides

[prerich]

Originally Posted by ozzman

Prerich for me this is the only place i think i can place them.I could hang my rears up in each corner but i don't think i would benefit from that

My back surrounds were more like a guess when i hung them.There just a little over 2 feet.Do you have any other options that maybe i could chew on.

Bringing the couch out and me putting the back surrounds on stands behind the couch isn't an option. Iam fighting for space for space


Just to let you know i have move up my rears slightly and straighten them up just a little pass my ears on both sides

I'm back from Georgia everyone!!! I actually got racially profiled in Alabama, but I was let go - too honest I guess !!! Ozz, I personally like the old Bipole Paradigms myself, but I'm a little prejudiced (I prefer the open sound of Bipole or Dipole rears). I personally would use those 20's to start a system that had only 20's in it (5 to 7 of them) and a Sub 25 subwoofer (just kidding about the $4000.00 sub - I would get something like the servo 15 or a 3400)

[JJ]

Hey. I just realized you questioned my placement 4 months ago. Good - it's pretty much there for aesthetics,

[ozzman]

Originally Posted by prerich

I'm back from Georgia everyone!!! I actually got racially profiled in Alabama, but I was let go - too honest I guess !!! Ozz, I personally like the old Bipole Paradigms myself, but I'm a little prejudiced (I prefer the open sound of Bipole or Dipole rears). I personally would use those 20's to start a system that had only 20's in it (5 to 7 of them) and a Sub 25 subwoofer (just kidding about the $4000.00 sub - I would get something like the servo 15 or a 3400)

Good idea,Doesn't really help me though just because of the simply fact they are my rears and backs now.
Thank you anyways.
I guess I'll just leave them the way i have them setup

[Johnny Vinyl]

I've been toying with several speaker placement options (fronts only) and thought that I'd post something here as no one (up to now) has really discussed the issue of toeing IN, toeing OUT or having your front speakers firing STRAIGHT AHEAD. I think there are proper applications for each position, but I don't see many galleries with such a diversity of placement. Most employ a Toe-IN method in the mistaken belief (IMO) that your fronts should be focused towards the centre listening position. This IMO is not always true and/or correct.

I've attached a very crude drawing of my living room set-up with before and after speaker placement positions. I'm still in the process of analyzing the differences between each, which will take a few more weeks, but I thought I would post it as food for thought.

Room Layout.jpg

I have tried every conceiveable placement strategy with both speaker width postions (IN-OUT-STRAIGHT) and I've employed my Old Speaker Placement for about the last year. You'll note that they partially obstruct the walk-ins to another room (kitchen) and hallway, which is a bit of a pain. However, they sound wonderful and I have been hesitant to change up to now.

Some weeks ago I starting thinking about bringing them back to a 7' postion and toeing them OUT. My thinking was that by doing so I would not be giving up imaging, presence and/or soundstage characteristics. I would also get the additional benefit of them not being in the way of foot traffic. Maybe it'll work I thought..and that's what I did.

My initial and immediate observation with the New Speaker Placement strategy was that it created more depth without losing any of the other characterists. In fact, the added depth enhanced the overall experience and it rather surprised me. The location of each instrument is much easier to identify now and my initial impression is a favourable one. However, I'm not yet prepared to make a final decision on which placement I'll use, because my ears may just be playing tricks on me. As such, I have several more weeks of toying with placement ahead and I'll let you know what I decide.

I'd love to hear some of your opinions on my speaker placement experiment and welcome any and all thoughts.

John

[naturephoto1]

Originally Posted by John72953

I've been toying with several speaker placement options (fronts only) and thought that I'd post something here as no one (up to now) has really discussed the issue of toeing IN, toeing OUT or having your front speakers firing STRAIGHT AHEAD. I think there are proper applications for each position, but I don't see many galleries with such a diversity of placement. Most employ a Toe-IN method in the mistaken belief (IMO) that your fronts should be focused towards the centre listening position. This IMO is not always true and/or correct.

I've attached a very crude drawing of my living room set-up with before and after speaker placement positions. I'm still in the process of analyzing the differences between each, which will take a few more weeks, but I thought I would post it as food for thought.

Attachment 6603

I have tried every conceiveable placement strategy with both speaker width postions (IN-OUT-STRAIGHT) and I've employed my Old Speaker Placement for about the last year. You'll note that they partially obstruct the walk-ins to another room (kitchen) and hallway, which is a bit of a pain. However, they sound wonderful and I have been hesitant to change up to now.

Some weeks ago I starting thinking about bringing them back to a 7' postion and toeing them OUT. My thinking was that by doing so I would not be giving up imaging, presence and/or soundstage characteristics. I would also get the additional benefit of them not being in the way of foot traffic. Maybe it'll work I thought..and that's what I did.

My initial and immediate observation with the New Speaker Placement strategy was that it created more depth without losing any of the other characterists. In fact, the added depth enhanced the overall experience and it rather surprised me. The location of each instrument is much easier to identify now and my initial impression is a favourable one. However, I'm not yet prepared to make a final decision on which placement I'll use, because my ears may just be playing tricks on me. As such, I have several more weeks of toying with placement ahead and I'll let you know what I decide.

I'd love to hear some of your opinions on my speaker placement experiment and welcome any and all thoughts.

John

Hi John,

Keep us posted. I would also suggest that you consider trying the speakers in the new position but facing straight forward to make an additional comparison in the sound.

Rich

[Johnny Vinyl]

Originally Posted by naturephoto1

Hi John,

Keep us posted. I would also suggest that you consider trying the speakers in the new position but facing straight forward to make an additional comparison in the sound.

Rich

Hi Rich,

Yes, I'll definately keep everyone posted as I'm quite anxious myself to find out the results. Prior to the posted setups I did have them in that exact position (7' - Straight) and found that moving to 8' - Straight improved the imaging considerably. However, it's never a bad idea to revisit and make sure that I was indeed accurate with that assessment.

My new Oppo DV-980H should arrive today or tomorrow and since it'll be my new primary SACD player (used PS3-60GB before) the timing of this experiment couldn't be more perfect!

John

[mtbkr]

here is a fun exercise for your subwoofers
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AV3oLLMgS-M