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Old 09-26-2014, 02:05 PM   #561
steve1971 steve1971 is offline
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Unlike 4K, Dolby Atmos is something I really look forward to and something I will buy into. The better the audio the better I like it!
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Old 09-26-2014, 04:04 PM   #562
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lentulus Batiatus View Post
How can something be "dead for years" when it's never been alive?
You've just answered your own question!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lentulus Batiatus View Post
D-Box is uber elitist in their pricing so of course 99.9% of HT owners don't have it. Good work on that approximation.
Me or anybody else who have sense with their money, wouldn't invest in D-Box because, it's not worth it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lentulus Batiatus View Post
I'd say that 99.999999999999999999% of HT owners haven't even HEARD of D-Box. You need tens of thousands of dollars worth of gear, subscriptions and so on to own it.
For those who haven't heard of D-Box, aren't missing nothing! People have better things to do with their money, than to waste it on D-Box.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lentulus Batiatus View Post
D-Box, however, is NOT another stupid gimmick and useless feature like BD-Live. It seems pretty evident you have no clue just what D-Box is.
I know exactly what D-Box is! What home theater enthusiast doesn't?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lentulus Batiatus View Post
If the cost per chair was $500 plus the price of the chair, the controller another $500 using HDMI and came with full support not some expensive yearly subscription and you could get the same quality experience in home that you can get in theater (which should actually be better since you can properly isolate your feet) this HT would be equipped with at least 3 D-Box seats.
No thank you! I want to be comfortable and relaxed while I'm watching my movies. I don't want my seat to be vibrating, jerking and moving around like it's demon possessed, or as if I'm riding on a roller coaster. D-Box can be very distracting, irritating and most of all uncomfortable! If I want thrill rides, I'll go to a amusement park, not when I'm at a theater, or watching a movie at home.

Last edited by slimdude; 09-27-2014 at 04:52 AM.
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Old 09-27-2014, 01:48 AM   #563
Blu-Dog Blu-Dog is offline
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Originally Posted by steve1971 View Post
Unlike 4K, Dolby Atmos is something I really look forward to and something I will buy into. The better the audio the better I like it!

What's "better" - Atmos or Auro?


I'd hate to find out after spending several thousand on one, or the other, then have to argue all night about having bought the "winner".


I think we've had enough "wars" about technology.
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Old 09-27-2014, 02:57 AM   #564
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Originally Posted by Blu-Dog View Post
What's "better" - Atmos or Auro?


I'd hate to find out after spending several thousand on one, or the other, then have to argue all night about having bought the "winner".


I think we've had enough "wars" about technology.
I won't bother with Auro. The hardware is available but there is zero Hollywood features that made use of this technology.

At least Dolby has been very active in trying to make Atmos a success. They've even gone as far as designing the new upfiring speakers as an alternative for home theater owners who may not want to fix ceiling speakers. And now two Hollywood Blu-rays are on their way, possibly much more in the near future.

Auro has done nothing. And DTS/Datasat has a very long way to go to catch up with Dolby.

Having the technology is one thing, but whether we can enjoy the technology as consumers is another point to consider.
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Old 09-27-2014, 04:30 AM   #565
FilmFreakosaurus FilmFreakosaurus is offline
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Originally Posted by BozQ View Post
I won't bother with Auro. The hardware is available but there is zero Hollywood features that made use of this technology.

At least Dolby has been very active in trying to make Atmos a success. They've even gone as far as designing the new upfiring speakers as an alternative for home theater owners who may not want to fix ceiling speakers. And now two Hollywood Blu-rays are on their way, possibly much more in the near future.

Auro has done nothing. And DTS/Datasat has a very long way to go to catch up with Dolby.

Having the technology is one thing, but whether we can enjoy the technology as consumers is another point to consider.

It's too early in the immersive audio game to know for certain how things will shake out. Auro's Van Baelen says studio Blu-rays with Auro encodings are on the way and are being compressed using DTS Master Audio lossless. He also says that Denon and other manufacturers are interested in adding their decoder. Denon/Marantz does say their upper level receivers and pre-amps with four processor chips will have an update for Auro, though it will have a fee associated with it. A DTS-UHD update would be free, but the ability to add it to first gen. upper models is not yet known.

At CEDIA I heard both Atmos and Auro. They each have strengths and weaknesses. Atmos does have more scalability and the potential for far more precision due to its added use of metadata controlled objects. Auro, at present, can only do up to 13.1 channels (using a 7.1 channel base with four more embedded, bit depth reduced height channels), but there is no indication as to whether Auro3D 9.1 or 13.1 will be in the consumer market (or both). At-home Atmos can do up to 24 mains, 10 overheads, and one LFE output (24.1.10 or 34.1) on each and every Atmos soundtrack release to the home.

I heard a 9.1 Auro demo and did not like the mono overhead speaker, which called attention to itself with some massive audio hotspotting above the listener during hard pans over the listener. A couple outdoor ambient recordings (non-synthetic), which Dolby did not utilize to demo their format (a shame), sounded great and quite realistic. However, the busy movie soundtracks Auro employed were lousy examples as you could not localize sounds very easily. Much like T4 in Atmos.

Believe it or not, it takes subtlety in the mix in order for either format to really shine. Jam it full of sounds going every which way and the 3D effect collapses. The engineers behind Gravity's Atmos mix knew what they were doing.

There may be more announcements as far as DTS-UHD and Auro (besides Atmos) towards CES.

Last edited by FilmFreakosaurus; 09-27-2014 at 04:37 AM.
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Old 09-27-2014, 06:26 AM   #566
Lentulus Batiatus Lentulus Batiatus is offline
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[quote=slimdude;9792831]You've just answered your own question!{/quote]

You said D-Box was dead. It's not dead. It's still around. It's just uber elite. There's a difference. VHS is dead. HD-DVD is dead.

Quote:
Originally Posted by slimdude View Post
Me or anybody else who have sense with their money, wouldn't invest in D-Box because, it's not worth it.
No, at the current pricing D-Box isn't worth it as my original post stated. However, priced more competitively and with better results it would be WELL worth it to those who'd enjoy it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by slimdude View Post
For those who haven't heard of D-Box, aren't missing nothing! People have better things to do with their money, than to waste it on D-Box.
Same with Atmos. But you've already proven you have no sense of money to call yourself a home theater enthusiast. That title alone shows you throw money at things that the vast majority of others would consider frivolous.

Quote:
Originally Posted by slimdude View Post
I know exactly what D-Box is! What home theater enthusiast doesn't?
And it's VERY apparent you are a hater who feels inclined to climb upon your soap box and tell the world. Kudos.

Quote:
Originally Posted by slimdude View Post
No thank you! I want to be comfortable and relaxed while I'm watching my movies. I don't want my seat to be vibrating, jerking and moving around like it's demon possessed, or as if I'm riding on a roller coaster. D-Box can be very distracting, irritating and most of all uncomfortable! If I want thrill rides, I'll go to a amusement park, not when I'm at a theater, or watching a movie at home.
D-Box is about immersive movies. What thread are you posting your hate in again? Oh right, an immersive audio format thread. And you have sense with money to not spend it on things like further immersion into the films you are watching.

But I guess a home theater enthusiast such as yourself doesn't have a sub to provide earth moving bass, huh? I mean you want to 'feel' the audio then go to a concert, right?

Now why don't you go troll someplace else?
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Old 09-27-2014, 12:16 PM   #567
slimdude slimdude is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lentulus Batiatus View Post
You said D-Box was dead. It's not dead. It's still around. It's just uber elite. There's a difference. VHS is dead. HD-DVD is dead. No, at the current pricing D-Box isn't worth it as my original post stated. However, priced more competitively and with better results it would be WELL worth it to those who'd enjoy it.
Same with Atmos. But you've already proven you have no sense of money to call yourself a home theater enthusiast. That title alone shows you throw money at things that the vast majority of others would consider frivolous. And it's VERY apparent you are a hater who feels jusinclined to climb upon your soap box and tell the world. Kudos. D-Box is about immersive movies. What thread are you posting your hate in again? Oh right, an immersive audio format thread. And you have sense with money to not spend it on things like further immersion into the films you are watching. But I guess a home theater enthusiast such as yourself doesn't have a sub to provide earth moving bass, huh? I mean you want to 'feel' the audio then go to a concert, right?
Now why don't you go troll someplace else?
It's not hatred. I don't have anybody or anything. Hate is a strong word! I just keep it real. A person is a "troll," because their opinion is different than yours? I don't think so! Some people just can't handle the truth, and the truth hurts.

Last edited by slimdude; 09-29-2014 at 02:13 AM.
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Old 09-27-2014, 01:59 PM   #568
Blu-Dog Blu-Dog is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BozQ View Post
I won't bother with Auro. The hardware is available but there is zero Hollywood features that made use of this technology.

At least Dolby has been very active in trying to make Atmos a success. They've even gone as far as designing the new upfiring speakers as an alternative for home theater owners who may not want to fix ceiling speakers. And now two Hollywood Blu-rays are on their way, possibly much more in the near future.

Auro has done nothing. And DTS/Datasat has a very long way to go to catch up with Dolby.

Having the technology is one thing, but whether we can enjoy the technology as consumers is another point to consider.

OK, so the current score is 2-0 for Dolby. I remember when high def sound first came along for Blu, and DTS had nothing - it was all Dolby.


Things have really changed. I had to get a new player for the latest movies, that would play DTS lossless. I had a perfectly good player that did Dolby just fine. That's how it works when these "wars" start.
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Old 09-27-2014, 02:13 PM   #569
Blu-Dog Blu-Dog is offline
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Anyway, D-Box is dead. It really is. It is a horrible tragedy, and we all lament, but the damned thing is dead, and we all know it.


Even worse, nobody killed it with a post to this forum. It is a self-inflicted tragedy. It could have gone into the mass market, at affordable prices, but it was set up as an oddball novelty - like having a room in you house dedicated to antique pinball machines, or hiring the local football team's mascot to come over for every child's birthday party.


The relative value of D-Box is irrelevant. You may like the idea, or you may not. It has never succeeded in the marketplace, any more than ButtKicker attachment to various furniture, and for the same reason: it's embarrassing self-indulgence, and not shareable amongst several people. It's a "throne" device, for just the person in the seat.


If you have the money, no one else should care. But it is not a viable marketplace item, and never will be. It is dead in the same way a toothless zombie is dead. It's there; it's moving; it isn't hurting anything; but no one wants it moving into their home, and sitting in a chair when the movie starts.

Last edited by quirkmanly; 09-27-2014 at 06:53 PM.
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Old 09-27-2014, 03:53 PM   #570
hometheatergeek hometheatergeek is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blu-Dog View Post
Wow, that's a lot of heat.


Anyway, D-Box is dead. It really is. It is a horrible tragedy, and we all lament, but the damned thing is dead, and we all know it.


Even worse, nobody killed it with a post to this forum. It is a self-inflicted tragedy. It could have gone into the mass market, at affordable prices, but it was set up as an oddball novelty - like having a room in you house dedicated to antique pinball machines, or hiring the local football team's mascot to come over for every child's birthday party.


The relative value of D-Box is irrelevant. You may like the idea, or you may not. It has never succeeded in the marketplace, any more than ButtKicker attachment to various furniture, and for the same reason: it's embarrassing self-indulgence, and not shareable amongst several people. It's a "throne" device, for just the person in the seat.


If you have the money, no one else should care. But it is not a viable marketplace item, and never will be. It is dead in the same way a toothless zombie is dead. It's there; it's moving; it isn't hurting anything; but no one wants it moving into their home, and sitting in a chair when the movie starts.
Just happen to pass by this thread. Looks like D-box encoded movies are not "dead" All you had to do was look for them. Previous releases and even new releases are still being encoded.

In Theaters.
Blu-rays with the encode.
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Old 09-27-2014, 06:17 PM   #571
Blu-Dog Blu-Dog is offline
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Just happen to pass by this thread. Looks like D-box encoded movies are not "dead" All you had to do was look for them. Previous releases and even new releases are still being encoded.

In Theaters.
Blu-rays with the encode.

Yeah, I know it's still out there, staggering around, with a gold chain around it's neck. It bangs on the front door, staggers in groaning, and takes the best seat in the house.


As a percentage of the population, it has a real number - a decimal point, then a heck of a lot of zeros, and then a digit.


I was looking into it. You could buy a chair already set up for it, for around $4K. The chair looked like crap, but you could get it. Two would have run me about $8K. This was around the time "I, Robot" came out in Blu-Ray, so that was the time frame.


So I wanted to see if I could retrofit some existing furniture, came to about the same price. It made less than no sense at all. I just blew it off.


It's out there, for anybody that actually wants it. I don't think many people do, but I'm not stopping them. Maybe professional athletes, or movie stars, or successful dope dealers, I don't know the demographic.


Or rich zombies. Or Dr. Frankenstein, shouting and giggling, "It's ALIVE! IT'S ALIVE!" with his eyes all bugged out. I won't argue with those guys.
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Old 09-27-2014, 06:54 PM   #572
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Mod Note: Let's keep things civil please folks.
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Old 09-27-2014, 10:24 PM   #573
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The last time I went to the theater, they tried really hard to sell me a special D-BOX seat (in a single row at the very back) for a couple of extra dollars. And the cashier pointed out three times that I could get my money back at the end of the movie if I didn't like the experience.

I took the latter as an indication of its dubious popularity with moviegoers and declined.

Maybe the Koreans like bowel-shaking seats and air blasts to the face (their version of D-BOX), but it doesn't seem to be taking off here.

Last edited by posthaste; 09-28-2014 at 04:49 PM.
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Old 09-28-2014, 12:12 AM   #574
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Originally Posted by posthaste View Post
The last time I went to the theater, they tried really hard to sell me a special D-BOX seat (in a single row at the very back) for a couple of extra dollars. And the cashier pointed out three times that I could get my money back at the end of movie if I didn't like the experience.

I took the latter as an indication of its popularity with moviegoers and declined.

Maybe the Koreans like bowel-shaking seats and air blasts to the face (their version of D-BOX), but it doesn't seem to be taking off here.
I've never experienced it, but I suspect it's a "weak" version of one of those motion ride simulators like Star Tours at Disney. Or the 300-lb guy down the street who has a couple of subwoofers in his trunk in 36" cabinets and rides around with his car stereo blasting so loud, you can hear the body of the car vibrating from three blocks away.

I can sort of see use of it in a theatre for those movies that are primarily popcorn action movies. Aren't people who are so proud about having 5 high powered subwoofers in their home theatre pretty much trying to accomplish the same thing?

In first run theaters, the 1959 William Castle movie "The Tingler" had some seats wired with vibrators. Whenever the "tingler" got loose they'd vibrate some of the seats. Supposedly this generated lots of screaming in the audience. I saw the movie when I was a kid before I understood the difference between first run and local theaters. So when I got to my local theatre, I tried to peek under the seats to look for wiring, but didn't see any (because there wasn't any in my theatre). I was really disappointed. But it was just a gimmick, just as D-Box is.

I think the issue with systems like this is that they're fun the first time you watch a film on them. Maybe the second. But I think the effect gets real old real fast. I think that's why systems like Sensurround didn't last very long (also, because it actually did cause structural damage in some theaters.)

And there was always the legend that when very high powered, very low frequency systems first appeared in discos, that initial blast of low frequencies was reputed to have caused "disco dump" in some people - where you lose bowel control (but maybe only in people who were heavily drunk and drugged).

-----
Dolby Atmos vs. Auro: I think it's unfair for anyone to judge them unit they've heard them. And since the home systems are so different than the theatrical, those have to be heard as well. While I have a personal bias in favor of object oriented systems, the proof is in the hearing.

Theatrically, there's lots more to Atmos than the height speakers so I feel like the initial home systems are lacking in that regard. But I also think that adding many more speakers is impractical for most setups other than dedicated home theaters owned by people who have LOTS of money. But you can spend a fortune even for 2-channel systems. I was at the NY Audio Show the other day and most of the speaker systems cost between $15 and $30K per pair!

While there have been many more Atmos films released (77 released in the U.S. by my count through the end of 2014), I count 24 Auro films, which isn't bad. Frankly, I'm surprised there's been even that many. I'm surprised that the studios have been willing to mix for both (or even either), since production schedules have become so tight and those formats are currently available in relatively few theaters.

My personal feeling is that anyone other than people who have more money than they know what to do with should not buy the first generation of receivers that support one or more of these formats. Dolby has already said that future receivers are going to support far more than the 7.1.4 that this first generation supports. With new 4K standards also on the way, I think it pays to wait.

Last edited by ZoetMB; 09-28-2014 at 12:19 AM.
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Old 09-28-2014, 07:23 PM   #575
Anthony P Anthony P is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by posthaste View Post
The last time I went to the theater, they tried really hard to sell me a special D-BOX seat (in a single row at the very back) for a couple of extra dollars. And the cashier pointed out three times that I could get my money back at the end of the movie if I didn't like the experience.

I took the latter as an indication of its dubious popularity with moviegoers and declined.

Maybe the Koreans like bowel-shaking seats and air blasts to the face (their version of D-BOX), but it doesn't seem to be taking off here.
I disagree. Here it is almost impossible to get a d-box seat they always sell out way too fast. I only managed to get a d-box once over the years.

I think there might be many reasons that someone might not buy a d-box seat (other than experience)

- for example one of my friends was unemployed this summer and she managed to get twice a d-box seat for the early (cheaper) showings, while, like I said before it is almost impossible to do the same when I go and it is full price. For me that indicates that, at least here, when people don't choose d-box (when it is available) it has more to do with frugality than the experience the seats give (i.e. people going when seats are cheap are less likely to put in a bit more to upgrade the experience while people that don't care as much about the cost do buy the more expensive d-box seat). So in the end the cheapness of everyone else in the time and place you go to watch a film will definitely affect the popularity just because of the price differential.

- just looking at you and Zoet (for example), from your posts it does not appear that you have tried watching a D-box film, but both of you have already pre-judged that experience based on your assumptions or pre-conceptions. So willingness to try something new could also play a role.
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Old 09-28-2014, 08:24 PM   #576
Anthony P Anthony P is offline
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I've never experienced it, but I suspect it's a "weak" version of one of those motion ride simulators like Star Tours at Disney.
I have never been to Star Tours at Disney so I cannot say if it is a "weak" version or not (or even if it is anywhere near the same thing). But it is definitely not anything like

Quote:
Or the 300-lb guy down the street who has a couple of subwoofers in his trunk in 36" cabinets and rides around with his car stereo blasting so loud, you can hear the body of the car vibrating from three blocks away.
or even bass shakers. Each d-box movement is choreographed to the film itself and meant to enhance the experience with very specific motion. That is why when you look on-line (like Blu-dog I looked into it for home but decided it was too pricy for me) the files for home are not only linked to a film but a particular version of the film (i.e. there is a file for the DVD a file for the BD a file for the extended cut, US, Europe.....)

Quote:
I can sort of see use of it in a theatre for those movies that are primarily popcorn action movies. Aren't people who are so proud about having 5 high powered subwoofers in their home theatre pretty much trying to accomplish the same thing?
I guess the film needs some action or else it is just a chair. But no subwoofers and bas shakers.... are not the same thing. That is like saying Micheal Phelps swimming and me drinking a glass of water are trying to accomplishing the same thing just because both involve water.


Quote:
I think the issue with systems like this is that they're fun the first time you watch a film on them. Maybe the second. But I think the effect gets real old real fast. I think that's why systems like Sensurround didn't last very long (also, because it actually did cause structural damage in some theaters.)
completely disagree that is why even though it is hard I still try and get d-box tickets. It takes a film from a passive disconnect to a form of active involvement that helps with the immersion.

Dolby Atmos vs. Auro: I think it's unfair for anyone to judge them unit they've heard them. And since the home systems are so different than the theatrical, those have to be heard as well. While I have a personal bias in favor of object oriented systems, the proof is in the hearing.
Quote:
But I also think that adding many more speakers is impractical for most setups other than dedicated home theaters owned by people who have LOTS of money.
agree with the first part, I don't only see it as an issue of practicality (cost) but also one of reality (benefit). By definition surround sound is mostly for the guy in the sweet spot and the further from it the less it is effective and so especially for home (where the speakers are not as far from each user) I see it as a bigger issue of benefit. If the top back speakers are inches from the rear and the top front inches from the front for most people in the room there will be very little benefit.

On the other hand I don't agree with your second part you don't need lots of money to have a HT (I don't like the word dedicated since I don't know or care what other stuff people do in their HT, is it less of an HT because in back of the motorized screen my friend has a murphy bed and so it can also double as a spare bedroom?). You can buy a 1080p 3D projector for under 1k, and surround sound for less then that ( ou can get a 5.1 set-up that can pass 3d for under 500$). Now obviously you can go much more than that but I am sure there are people out there that paid less for their HT than others for their TV in their living room.
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Old 09-28-2014, 10:10 PM   #577
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I disagree. Here it is almost impossible to get a d-box seat they always sell out way too fast. I only managed to get a d-box once over the years.
New York City is considered a "movie town" and it's also a place where a lot of premieres are held, but not one theatre in all of NYC has a D-Box seat. The closest one (actually the only one within a reasonable distance) is in Bayonne, New Jersey and there are only 6 within 200 miles of NYC.

So it seems to me that AMC-Loews, Regal-United Artists, City Cinemas, Landmark, IFC and the BowTie chains as well as ALL of the independents have decided that this isn't worth installing. That's not a single one out of 55 NYC theaters and 431 screens.

Now it may be because in a crowded place like NYC, they don't want customers fighting over who gets the special seat and it's too expensive to install very many of them, but they've obviously decided that they can't make money with D-Box. And this is in a place where most of the theaters play just about continuously from noon to midnight - not this one afternoon show and one night show that you see in smaller regions.
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Old 09-29-2014, 01:35 AM   #578
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Not a fan of D-Box. The only D-Box cinema in Singapore sucks. And the MFX can be a little distracting. A good projection and sound system is far more important to me in the overall experience.
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Old 09-29-2014, 12:32 PM   #579
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No idea how this thread became a D-Box debate from one simple comment exuding the future completion of a home theater project but WTH?

[Show spoiler]Now for someone to say "I've never experienced it but I bet it's just a weak version of something else" is laughable. D-Box in theaters is awesome. It's done with just the right amount of nuance that when you don't really need it, it's not there, then when you don't realize it's gone it comes back and then WHAM it hits you like a ton of bricks exactly as it should Seeing Sherlock Holmes A Game of Shadows in D-Box was unreal and The Dark Knight Rises, when Batman fails to hurt Bane before Bane breaks his back you could FEEL the impacts perfectly. Guardians was an awesome roller coaster ride. My first experience was Pirates 4 and right at the beginning you could feel the carriage bouncing along the cobblestone street but it's not done to a degree of nausea. It's the perfect compliment to an action/adventure type film. Swinging through the skyscrapers of NYC along with Spider-man was just awesome.

The only down-side in theaters is due to fire regulations there can be no foot rest to get your feet off the floor. This can keep you in the reality of your seat moving while you really aren't so when things pick up I just lift up my feet.

I have been to Star Tours, both old and new. I've been to Minion Madness and Transformers and Spider-man and Soaring over California and so on. They are all awesome theme park rides. I've even ridden the Space Shuttle simulator at Kennedy. And I've seen numerous films in D-Box. It's is as close as you can get without needing a seatbelt or other such restraining device. And it's synced perfectly to the film. Just don't order a large popcorn if you plan to use the high setting.

I've never been to a D-Box theater where there was only a single row way at the back. I'ts always been 2-3 rows of prime seating. Sure it comes with an extra cost but so does the 6 cents of pop and 9 cents of popcorn you are stuffing in your face. And the seats are rarely empty unless you are going to some odd showing or late in the run. But then films run in D-Box for 2-3 weeks before the next one comes along.

The home demos I've experienced, sadly, were very lacking. And when you start seeing the tag prices for the equipment you quickly balk. Nearly 20 grand for 2 chairs? And they won't be as good as the theater chairs? No thanks. I'll save if for the cinemas.


Now maybe we should be discussing Atmos?
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FilmFreakosaurus (09-29-2014), Retrofit (10-04-2014)
Old 09-29-2014, 12:53 PM   #580
Suntory_Times Suntory_Times is offline
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[quote=Lentulus Batiatus;9796149]
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Originally Posted by slimdude View Post
You've just answered your own question!{/quote]

You said D-Box was dead. It's not dead. It's still around. It's just uber elite. There's a difference. VHS is dead. HD-DVD is dead.
I just watched a vhs the other day. Not dead in use, just in production. D-box just priced themselves out of the market, I am guessing it as they want the extra money but don't have the capital/man power for a large scale launch in the home market so they only do the .0001% who will pay above and beyond for it. So not dead in reality, but for the all intensive purposes dead for consumer home use.
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