The Official Paradigm Speakers Thread

[lDlisturb3d]

Originally Posted by BluCheez

I guess it is all relative. Put it this way. When I first put in Dave Matthews and Tim Reynolds I couldn't believe what was coming out of my speakers. This may sound corny but I had tears in my eyes. When I first cranked up Cars I got emotional. I love good sound and my Monitors didn't disappoint. You will not be disappointed. I can't comment on anything other than what I have. I really am curious about the potential of higher end speakers. Are they worth the $$? At what point does spending the extra $1000 not make that much of a difference? If I had Signature 8s for towers would I crap my pants when I first turned them on? Would they make the Monitors sound like tiny PC speakers? These are all things I have no idea about. One day I'd like to spend an hour in my local high end AV store and audition the Studios and Signature just for fun. Or perhaps ignorance is bliss and I should just enjoy what I have.

First off LOL. You are crazy. but seriously i think those higher end speakers are if you are in a bigger room and you need more power but without losing quality. That can be the only purpose into spending that much on a speaker. All i want out of my speaker is to reproduce the exact track from its source without any distortion. Thats all im looking for. Pure correct sound. When you spend more bucks you are just looking for more power with quality IMO. Im no expert but it seems simple.

[BluCheez]

Originally Posted by lDlisturb3d

First off LOL. You are crazy. but seriously i think those higher end speakers are if you are in a bigger room and you need more power but without losing quality. That can be the only purpose into spending that much on a speaker. All i want out of my speaker is to reproduce the exact track from its source without any distortion. Thats all im looking for. Pure correct sound. When you spend more bucks you are just looking for more power with quality IMO. Im no expert but it seems simple.

LOL! Yeah, this hobby can make you crazy. I don't even want to get into how much I obsessed over getting my TV calibrated perfectly.

What you are saying makes sense, but I wonder if there is more to it than just that. I would love to hear from other who have the Studios, or the rare bird that has Sigs, about their experience with higher end speakes.

[lDlisturb3d]

Originally Posted by BluCheez

LOL! Yeah, this hobby can make you crazy. I don't even want to get into how much I obsessed over getting my TV calibrated perfectly.

What you are saying makes sense, but I wonder if there is more to it than just that. I would love to hear from other who have the Studios, or the rare bird that has Sigs, about their experience with higher end speakes.

just go demo them. I've heard studio 20's and 100's also the first line of the sig's. They are all amazing but what really got my attention is how clear they sound at very high levels. They don't distort and they are all very tight.

[aces high]

Originally Posted by BluCheez

LOL! Yeah, this hobby can make you crazy. I don't even want to get into how much I obsessed over getting my TV calibrated perfectly.

What you are saying makes sense, but I wonder if there is more to it than just that. I would love to hear from other who have the Studios, or the rare bird that has Sigs, about their experience with higher end speakes.

This may be a long winded post but here goes, my first Paradigm system was the Monitor 9 v6, cc 390 v6, ADP 390 v5, Atom Monitor v6 and dual DSP 3200's with the Denon 1909. Sounded great for the first few months, then as I got used to the system I noticed it's shortcomings. The denon would start to distort at the levels I like to listen at and the Monitors always seemed very bright to me.The subs seemed very boomy and bloated. I sold the Denon and bought the Pioneer sc 07, which helped with the distortion but not the brightness. Upgraded to the cc 590 v5, Studio 20 v5, ADP 590 v5 and the Sub 15, keeping the Atoms for surround backs. The brightness was gone with a silky smooth midrange, but I missed the dynamics of a large center and towers. I also realized the sound of a sealed sub with the PBK was much more to my liking. The Studio's handle power much better than the Monitors and stay more composed while doing it. I found when pushing the Monitors hard they would get alittle harsh. The biggest difference btween them is a smoother, more refined sound with the Studio's. I haven't opened my cc 690 yet, waiting for some towers. I've decided to get the 100's and pick them up sometime this weekend. I've had the cc 590 for sale for about a month and it still hasn't sold, hopefully soon. I don't know if this helps but that has been my experience so far, I'll post some more thought's after listening to the new speakers for awhile. After getting the Studio 20 system I added some GIK room treatments which also made a big difference, I shouild have tried those before upgrading speakers.

[lDlisturb3d]

hey would you get mini monitor's or the ADP 190 for surrounds. Im leaning more toward the Mini's because i can use them for multiple reasons just in case i upgrade. let me know.

[erict]

Originally Posted by lDlisturb3d

i hear you. are you not satisfied?? truthfully? I want the monitor 9's but if they aren't what they seem, ill shoot higher and just save more.

The way I see it (or hear it) is I don't think we are ever satisfied so to speak in this hobby. If you got the 9's you would be really happy but. I say but, because there is always something turning in our heads wondering what those would sound like. It's a vicious circle that our wallets try to keep us in check with

[Morrissey]

Originally Posted by BluCheez

LOL! Yeah, this hobby can make you crazy. I don't even want to get into how much I obsessed over getting my TV calibrated perfectly.

What you are saying makes sense, but I wonder if there is more to it than just that. I would love to hear from other who have the Studios, or the rare bird that has Sigs, about their experience with higher end speakes.

After a demo of the Sig 8s a few weeks back, I found that the jump from the Monitor Series to the Studio series is a much bigger upgrade than the Studio to the Sigs. In my opinion only, I'm sure some would disagree.

[Guinness6]

Originally Posted by lDlisturb3d

hey would you get mini monitor's or the ADP 190 for surrounds. Im leaning more toward the Mini's because i can use them for multiple reasons just in case i upgrade. let me know.

I haven't auditioned them in comparison, but from everything I've read on forums, people love using Minis or Atoms or whatever as their surrounds. Until they try out the ADPs. Then they are blown away - I haven't seen anyone going back to their old setup...

[callas01]

Originally Posted by lDlisturb3d

First off LOL. You are crazy. but seriously i think those higher end speakers are if you are in a bigger room and you need more power but without losing quality. That can be the only purpose into spending that much on a speaker. All i want out of my speaker is to reproduce the exact track from its source without any distortion. Thats all im looking for. Pure correct sound. When you spend more bucks you are just looking for more power with quality IMO. Im no expert but it seems simple.

Originally Posted by BluCheez

LOL! Yeah, this hobby can make you crazy. I don't even want to get into how much I obsessed over getting my TV calibrated perfectly.

What you are saying makes sense, but I wonder if there is more to it than just that. I would love to hear from other who have the Studios, or the rare bird that has Sigs, about their experience with higher end speakes.

while room size can play a factor in speaker determination, it shouldn't be your ultimate decision engine. Yes some speakers can be too small for a room, but rarely is there a speaker too big for a room. With proper room placement, toe-in, calibration, room acoustical treatments, and setup in general just about any speaker can be placed in any room.

The biggest thing when you read magz like stereophile or HT mag, etc., is that they take the time to set the speakers up so they get the best sound from them. That means spacing, toe-in, distance from side and rear walls and everything else.

So if you want to get high end speakers it doesn't just mean that its meant for more power and less distortion, although that is usually an added benefit. You say you want to hear the audio track the way its meant, well in order to do so, Neutral speakers that do not add coloration are more expensive. Typically as you go up the scale to higher and higher end speakers, your getting more neutral speakers with better detail and cohesion, etc.

[solarrdadd]

Originally Posted by callas01

while room size can play a factor in speaker determination, it shouldn't be your ultimate decision engine. Yes some speakers can be too small for a room, but rarely is there a speaker too big for a room. With proper room placement, toe-in, calibration, room acoustical treatments, and setup in general just about any speaker can be placed in any room.

The biggest thing when you read magz like stereophile or HT mag, etc., is that they take the time to set the speakers up so they get the best sound from them. That means spacing, toe-in, distance from side and rear walls and everything else.

So if you want to get high end speakers it doesn't just mean that its meant for more power and less distortion, although that is usually an added benefit. You say you want to hear the audio track the way its meant, well in order to do so, Neutral speakers that do not add coloration are more expensive. Typically as you go up the scale to higher and higher end speakers, your getting more neutral speakers with better detail and cohesion, etc.

howdy callas01, just curious, i noticed you mentioned "toe-in" twice, do you believe that toe-ing in your speakers is the best way to get good sound out of them? I'm not saying you said that either i did notice you never mentioned just keeping them straight ahead. this is a question more about your preference which i suspect is "toe-in".

i also wanted to bring out to others that you don't always need to "toe-in" your speakers, sometimes just straight ahead will work out best, in fact, some folks even "toe" theirs out!

cal, hope you understand, i just didn't want folks to think that if they didn't have their speakers toed in that they potentially didn't have them set up right and we all know right is in most cases what you as the individual prefers.

i hope you and i are still cool?!?

[Johnny Vinyl]

Originally Posted by callas01

while room size can play a factor in speaker determination, it shouldn't be your ultimate decision engine. Yes some speakers can be too small for a room, but rarely is there a speaker too big for a room. With proper room placement, toe-in, calibration, room acoustical treatments, and setup in general just about any speaker can be placed in any room.

The biggest thing when you read magz like stereophile or HT mag, etc., is that they take the time to set the speakers up so they get the best sound from them. That means spacing, toe-in, distance from side and rear walls and everything else.

So if you want to get high end speakers it doesn't just mean that its meant for more power and less distortion, although that is usually an added benefit. You say you want to hear the audio track the way its meant, well in order to do so, Neutral speakers that do not add coloration are more expensive. Typically as you go up the scale to higher and higher end speakers, your getting more neutral speakers with better detail and cohesion, etc.

Hi callas,

Very well said. There is ideed much more to speakers than just the speakers themselves. If you have 3 identical speaker pairs and were able to set them up in 3 different rooms you'd get 3 different sound signatures. As such, I think its thereby important to take your own in-home conditions into consideration when looking at an upgrade.

John

Originally Posted by solarrdadd

howdy callas01, just curious, i noticed you mentioned "toe-in" twice, do you believe that toe-ing in your speakers is the best way to get good sound out of them? I'm not saying you said that either i did notice you never mentioned just keeping them straight ahead. this is a question more about your preference which i suspect is "toe-in".

i also wanted to bring out to others that you don't always need to "toe-in" your speakers, sometimes just straight ahead will work out best, in fact, some folks even "toe" theirs out!

cal, hope you understand, i just didn't want folks to think that if they didn't have their speakers toed in that they potentially didn't have them set up right and we all know right is in most cases what you as the individual prefers.

i hope you and i are still cool?!?

Hi solarrdadd!

I am one of those people that uses a toe-OUT method with my Totems.I experimented with spacing (width apart), toe-in, straight and toe-out for many months, until I came to the conclusion that the toe-out method worked best for me in my room. I don't know how the Paradigms do with off-axis dispersion (Totems are known to have a generally wide one), but if they do then this may be something to consider for some.

John

[solarrdadd]

Originally Posted by John72953

Hi callas,

Very well said. There is ideed much more to speakers than just the speakers themselves. If you have 3 identical speaker pairs and were able to set them up in 3 different rooms you'd get 3 different sound signatures. As such, I think its thereby important to take your own in-home conditions into consideration when looking at an upgrade.

John


Hi solarrdadd!

I am one of those people that uses a toe-OUT method with my Totems.I experimented with spacing (width apart), toe-in, straight and toe-out for many months, until I came to the conclusion that the toe-out method worked best for me in my room. I don't know how the Paradigms do with off-axis dispersion (Totems are known to have a generally wide one), but if they do then this may be something to consider for some.

John

hey john, without a doubt you are correct in your response to both of us. I just didn't want folks to think that if they had theirs straight ahead or toed out and it sounded good to them that they may be potentially not setting them up for the best sound or doing something wrong. again, not putting words in cal's mouth either. lots of folks here do have them (at least what i see in their gallery) toed in as well as toed out and straight ahead. i think folks should try them all different ways until it sounds the best for them.

i would also add that i do not have paradigm speakers so my response was for speakers in general and the experience with my own speakers. so for all i know paradigm (some of their lines but not all) may sound best toed in. but i'll tell you i have seen (in gallerys) many folks with paradigm speakers straight ahead.

hope things are going well john. i'm gonna go get some cereal and coffee, later.

[BluCheez]

Originally Posted by aces high

This may be a long winded post but here goes, my first Paradigm system was the Monitor 9 v6, cc 390 v6, ADP 390 v5, Atom Monitor v6 and dual DSP 3200's with the Denon 1909. Sounded great for the first few months, then as I got used to the system I noticed it's shortcomings. The denon would start to distort at the levels I like to listen at and the Monitors always seemed very bright to me.The subs seemed very boomy and bloated. I sold the Denon and bought the Pioneer sc 07, which helped with the distortion but not the brightness. Upgraded to the cc 590 v5, Studio 20 v5, ADP 590 v5 and the Sub 15, keeping the Atoms for surround backs. The brightness was gone with a silky smooth midrange, but I missed the dynamics of a large center and towers. I also realized the sound of a sealed sub with the PBK was much more to my liking. The Studio's handle power much better than the Monitors and stay more composed while doing it. I found when pushing the Monitors hard they would get alittle harsh. The biggest difference btween them is a smoother, more refined sound with the Studio's. I haven't opened my cc 690 yet, waiting for some towers. I've decided to get the 100's and pick them up sometime this weekend. I've had the cc 590 for sale for about a month and it still hasn't sold, hopefully soon. I don't know if this helps but that has been my experience so far, I'll post some more thought's after listening to the new speakers for awhile. After getting the Studio 20 system I added some GIK room treatments which also made a big difference, I shouild have tried those before upgrading speakers.

Thanks for that. You are in the exact same position as me. It is good to hear your perspective. The only thing stopping me from matching your stride is $$. (Surprise, surprise...) I am facinated by the adjectives we use: "harsh", "smooth", "refined", "bright", "bloated"... These are all so subjective, yet they do mean something to those of us who have had a lot of experience with speakers. Unfortunately, I have not. For me these words have little meaning. I guess the next step in my education is to spend time at my AV store auditioning and comparing speakers.

One caveat that I can't shake is how much of an impact the "hear what I want to hear" effect is. I.e. when we spend a pile of money, we expect it to sound better (need it to sound better) so it sounds better. This is all so subjective. I wonder how objective someone can be who just spent $3500 on a pair of towers.

[BluCheez]

Originally Posted by callas01

while room size can play a factor in speaker determination, it shouldn't be your ultimate decision engine. Yes some speakers can be too small for a room, but rarely is there a speaker too big for a room. With proper room placement, toe-in, calibration, room acoustical treatments, and setup in general just about any speaker can be placed in any room.

The biggest thing when you read magz like stereophile or HT mag, etc., is that they take the time to set the speakers up so they get the best sound from them. That means spacing, toe-in, distance from side and rear walls and everything else.

So if you want to get high end speakers it doesn't just mean that its meant for more power and less distortion, although that is usually an added benefit. You say you want to hear the audio track the way its meant, well in order to do so, Neutral speakers that do not add coloration are more expensive. Typically as you go up the scale to higher and higher end speakers, your getting more neutral speakers with better detail and cohesion, etc.

Can you give me some guidance on "distance from the wall"? I usually pull my fronts about a foot away from the wall and toe them in. My sub is right beside the left front (the only place I can put it in my room). I have the option of moving it left another foot so that the ports face a long hallway. Alternatively, if I keep it beside my front speaker the wall is about a foot behind it. What do you recommend for sub placement? Accoustic treatment is simply not an option since this is my living room as well and my wife would not tolerate me sticking foam on our walls.

[Johnny Vinyl]

Originally Posted by BluCheez

Thanks for that. You are in the exact same position as me. It is good to hear your perspective. The only thing stopping me from matching your stride is $$. (Surprise, surprise...) I am facinated by the adjectives we use: "harsh", "smooth", "refined", "bright", "bloated"... These are all so subjective, yet they do mean something to those of us who have had a lot of experience with speakers. Unfortunately, I have not. For me these words have little meaning. I guess the next step in my education is to spend time at my AV store auditioning and comparing speakers.

One caveat that I can't shake is how much of an impact the "hear what I want to hear" effect is. I.e. when we spend a pile of money, we expect it to sound better (need it to sound better) so it sounds better. This is all so subjective. I wonder how objective someone can be who just spent $3500 on a pair of towers.

I made a thread some time ago called Glossary of Audio Terms which may help you to understand how people in the audiophile community describe various sounds. And yes, it is all very subjective.

John

[-DLS-]

Lots of action in here since I last checked!

Alot of good points have been made.

BluCheez - I don't think the difference would be like you imagined how moving from a higher end will make your speakers sound smaller.. actually the Monitors are known for it's ability to play loud and what you would probably notice moving up is the different sound characteristics of the speakers. If you had an SPL meter and played them both at exactly the same level - the better speaker would probably sound quieter but with more detail. At least from my experience that's what I noticed from speakers that I used to have at home(Monitor 11's). I sometimes pull out the SPL meter to see how loud I am actually listening and what the peak levels are and I know after listening to both the Monitors and the Studios in my room which ones clearly sounded better at approximately the same levels.
You're in Winnipeg right? I know Advance Electronics has has the Monitors in one room and the the Studios and Sigs setup in another. And if it's still the same they had the Studios right from the 10's up to the 100's. And in both rooms can be compared with B&W's of the same price range. Check it out if you haven't already.

For me Like Morrissey said I think jumping up from Studios to Sigs won't be as big as Monitors to Studios. I have just recently heard the v3 S6's and that Beryllium tweeter does give you a softer silk like sound but it's not needed for my type of use(mostly HT). Still a great speaker and if I did have money to spend then why not but I'm VERY happy with my move from the Monitors to Studio's for my HT needs and my occasional music sessions!



callas01, John and Solarrdad - about the whole toe-in/straight ahead and toe-out - I've tried everything from spreading them apart to different angles & distance from the front wall and with my exact same speakers someone can do it completely different in another room and sound better than how I have mine setup. Paradigm recommends toe in but I like it better almost straight out so even manufacturers recommendations aren't something that need to be followed. It's really all about how you like it in your space like others have mentioned already.

I also have heard the Studio 100's in a few different stores now and I gotta say the room can really screw up a demo for someone. While it can sound good or really bad at the store it can sound much better or worse at home so room size, shape and acoustics have alot to do with how speakers will sound.. again already mentioned but just wanted to add my experiences. I like it best at home but I had alot more time to tweak and play with the room and speakers then I could at the store.

In the end It's all up to you BluCheez - Check it out at Advance and see if it's something you really want.. You might even find something you like outside of Paradigm.. they had Vienna Acoustics setup right outside the "P" Ref room along with other well known brands..

[Johnny Vinyl]

Originally Posted by -DLS-

callas01, John and Solarrdad - about the whole toe-in/straight ahead and toe-out - I've tried everything from spreading them apart to different angles & distance from the front wall and with my exact same speakers someone can do it completely different in another room and sound better than how I have mine setup. Paradigm recommends toe in but I like it better almost straight out so even manufacturers recommendations are something that needs to be followed. It's really all about how you like it in your space like others have mentioned already.

That's an excellent point DLS!

I can only go by what Totem recommends for my speakers, so forgive me for that comparison in the Paradigm thread, but I do think it applies.Totem recommmends a straight ahead approach up to a 7-foot span. After that they recommend playing with toe-in. At no no point have they ever recommended toe-out....yet that is the method I feel works best in my room.

Bottom line is simple...one has to experiment ....you'll find that magic spot for your setup eventually.

John

[callas01]

John, Sollarrdadd, Blucheez, DLS,

I want to say that all speakers image differently and interact differently in different rooms, so its hard to actually say that you need to set them up 6-8 feet with 15 degree toe-in.... that would not work for everyone.

Energy tells me if my speakers are 6 feet apart to set them straight and sit 9 feet back... but I cannot in my room, I sit 6-7 feet back I cannot have my speakers 4.5 feet apart, physically its impossible, so I have them about 7 feet apart and slight toe-in, and that works the best for me... I have tried a million different ways, Now if I sat where the bookshelf behind me is then I could have them straight up and they sound just as excellent...

Placement, toe-in, distance from side and rear walls all affect a speakers sound. Distance from the back or side walls can increase the bass sound when a port is closer to a rear wall, it can make it boomy if too close or too lite if too far away from the wall. So placement is something you have to experiment with in order to find where your speakers sound best in your room.

John and I think Richteer use toe out, DLS has his straight up.... its all based on what you hear and how you adjust them to get the most from your speakers in your livingroom. That is also why people say speakers sound one way in the audition room and different in your livingroom.

Sollarrdadd, Yea were cool.

[-DLS-]

Originally Posted by John72953

That's an excellent point DLS!

I can only go by what Totem recommends for my speakers, so forgive me for that comparison in the Paradigm thread, but I do think it applies.Totem recommmends a straight ahead approach up to a 7-foot span. After that they recommend playing with toe-in. At no no point have they ever recommended toe-out....yet that is the method I feel works best in my room.

Bottom line is simple...one has to experiment ....you'll find that magic spot for your setup eventually.

John

Whoops my mistake I meant "aren't" something that need to be followed -not "are". Sorry.. just fixed that in my original post.

[Johnny Vinyl]

Originally Posted by -DLS-

Whoops my mistake I meant "aren't" something that need to be followed -not "are". Sorry.. just fixed that in my original post.

I figured that's what you meant....hence the reply.

John
PS~ Things are good and I hope with you as well!