Netflix Disc Rental Future

[alchav21]

Originally Posted by PenguinInfinity

It doesn't matter how fast your connection is; Netflix, VUDU, Amazon, Sony Ultra, iTunes, etc don't provide anywhere near 75Mbps.

It's possible they will at some point, but the fact is that right now disc bitrates are much higher than streaming bitrates. Trying to dispute facts just makes you sound foolish.

Who's the foolish one? All those sites you mentioned can average 25Mbps, enough for 1080P Disc Quality. Blu-ray Players average 20Mbps so the Quality is there. UHD Disc Quality is not too far behind, I think averaging 50+Mbps should be more than enough. Technology waits for no one!

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by alchav21

Who's the foolish one? All those sites you mentioned can average 25Mbps, enough for 1080P Disc Quality. Blu-ray Players average 20Mbps so the Quality is there. UHD Disc Quality is not too far behind, I think averaging 50+Mbps should be more than enough. Technology waits for no one!

Easiest question I will answer this year: you are. Without any doubt whatsoever. Multiple people have told you this and have told you this often. I could literally swamp this page with the posts where this has happened.

A blu-ray disc has a bitrate average of 25-27 Mbps, not 20. You are wrong here, too. Even bruceames, who maintains the Home Video Sales thread, corrected you about this back on May 11th. You are unable to learn from past lessons, as usual.

High definition streams average just 16 Mbps, not 25. You are wrong again here.

Only 4K streams average 25 Mbps while a 4K disc averages 75-80 Mbps. 4K streams are not even close to the bitrates of a 4K disc. You are wrong a third time.

There is no evidence that streaming content providers will raise their bitrate averages and lessen their compression. There is no evidence that they will offer lossless audio. Even that 50 Mbps number that you pulled right out of your arse is not even close to that of a current 4K disc. What you "think" they will do is meaningless; what they are doing is all that matters. You are wrong a fourth time in just one post.

Wrong. It's what you are consistently.

More data usage by streaming content providers and more data usage by customers would cost both more money. There is no indication that either want to pay more, especially when streaming customers are already satisfied with the "less than disc" performance they receive already.

And there is that little bit about 35% of Americans lacking even broadband internet; these can't even stream in high definition, yet alone this 50 Mbps streaming fantasy you cooked up.

You do not even comprehend the present, do not even try to predict the future.

[Wendell R. Breland]

Originally Posted by alchav21

Who's the foolish one? All those sites you mentioned can average 25Mbps, enough for 1080P Disc Quality. Blu-ray Players average 20Mbps so the Quality is there. UHD Disc Quality is not too far behind, I think averaging 50+Mbps should be more than enough. Technology waits for no one!

Only in your dreams, Netflix uses 5800 kbps for 1080 and 16000 kbps for 2160. The other sites probably use similar data rates, don't care enough to look them up.

Blu-ray players do not have an average data rate . Blu-ray disc can have a average but means very little since it depends on several factors. The Blu-ray players can read at 54000 kbps but content is limited to a about 48000 kbps. UHD BD is about double this or more, will look it up at some point.

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland

Only in your dreams, Netflix uses 5800 kbps for 1080 and 16000 kbps for 2160. The other sites probably use similar data rates, don't care enough to look them up.

Blu-ray players do not have an average data rate . Blu-ray disc can have a average but means very little since it depends on several factors. The Blu-ray players can read at 54000 kbps but content is limited to a about 48000 kbps. UHD BD is about double this or more, will look it up at some point.

4K disc maxes at 128 Mbps; I'll save you the effort.

[alchav21]

Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland

Only in your dreams, Netflix uses 5800 kbps for 1080 and 16000 kbps for 2160. The other sites probably use similar data rates, don't care enough to look them up.

Blu-ray players do not have an average data rate . Blu-ray disc can have a average but means very little since it depends on several factors. The Blu-ray players can read at 54000 kbps but content is limited to a about 48000 kbps. UHD BD is about double this or more, will look it up at some point.

Originally Posted by Vilya

4K disc maxes at 128 Mbps; I'll save you the effort.

You guys keep going back to old information, how about Adaptive Streaming with the New Codec? I know Sony Ultra uses it, and probably Amazon and Vudu too. The Bitrates can adjust to your Bandwidth. With the New Codec and Adaptive Streaming you'll have the lower minimums, but if you have the Consistent Bandwidth 25+Mbps can be acheived easily. I have upgraded many of my Movies to UHD, and have been watching them on Vudu and they look Fantastic. The Streaming Providers want to be effecient, and upgrading the Codec with Adaptive Streaming sounds like the way to go.

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by alchav21

You guys keep going back to old information, how about Adaptive Streaming with the New Codec? I know Sony Ultra uses it, and probably Amazon and Vudu too. The Bitrates can adjust to your Bandwidth. With the New Codec and Adaptive Streaming you'll have the lower minimums, but if you have the Consistent Bandwidth 25+Mbps can be acheived easily. I have upgraded many of my Movies to UHD, and have been watching them on Vudu and they look Fantastic. The Streaming Providers want to be effecient, and upgrading the Codec with Adaptive Streaming sounds like the way to go.

This is not old information. It is the current reality of streaming. Your disliking these facts does not invalidate them; it only shows the incredible limitations of your cognitive malfunctioning. You have not, and can not, provide any evidence that a streaming service has averaged a bitrate higher than 25 Mbps for a 4K stream and just 16 Mbps for a high definition stream.

You keep repeating this garbage about adaptive streaming. High definition streaming averages 16 Mbps and 4K streams average 25 Mbps, period. You will not find a single citation that shows any streaming service, other than the ridiculously cost prohibitive Kaleidoscope service, that averages higher than 25 Mbps for a 4K stream. They do not exist.

Adaptive streaming does not bring the bitrate above these averages, only up to them at most. 25 Mbps is all you are going to get, for a 4K stream, despite most of us having much more bandwidth available from our ISPs.

Several people in at least two different threads have provided you with this information, complete with citations, over and over again, but you remain obstinate, obtuse, and in denial. You seem to believe that if you say something often enough, it will magically become true. You are immune to facts and devoid of reasoning.

What a streaming service could do theoretically is entirely immaterial. They are not using more bandwidth than 25 Mbps and real world results are what matter, not maybes and not your silly little fantasies.

No streaming service provider has indicated that they plan to use more bandwidth than what they are using now. More data consumption means more money and neither they nor the consumer has shown any appetite to spend more. Streaming customers appear to be satisfied with the highly compressed, artifact prone, and lossy audio presentations they receive now. Streaming services certainly do not need to improve anything to please you with your watching streams in their current form and your listening to lossy audio through headphones.

Sony Ultra is rated as one of the worst streaming services in existence for both their poor selection limited to Sony titles, bad pricing, and their bitrate average is no better than that of far superior streaming services.

[SuperFlyHighGuy]

Originally Posted by JupiterMission

Does Netflix's disc service have much from Scream Factory, Arrow, Vinegar Syndrome, Kino, Scorpion and/or Code Red? I suppose it could be a good way for me to sample titles instead of blind buying so much.

They don't have any of that stuff. I'm still a disc subscriber and I mostly use it for newer releases and tv shows. Going through The Wire series on blu now.

It's worth it for me cause I don't have cable, sat, or an internet connection. So I don't stream or anything, so I can justify $16 a month for 2-discs at a time. Biggest issue I have is that I sometimes get blu-rays that won't play, and the disc is brand-new looking. Netflix tries to tell me it's my player, but I'm current with my firmware, and I think it's actually the stickers they put on them.

The service is very good for getting most of the newest Criterion blu-rays though, if you're interested in that.

[Wendell R. Breland]

Originally Posted by alchav21

You guys keep going back to old information, how about Adaptive Streaming with the New Codec?

ABR, CBR and VBR has been around a long time, nothing new here. Even CBR (like ATSC uses) content rate varies, if the content bit rate drops then null packets are added to keep it a CBR. For anyone interested they can purchase TSReader here. Been using the Standard edition for many years .

I told you what Netflix maxes out at in the post above. Many can not get that data rate and that is where ABR kicks in, it lowers the bit rate and if needed it will lower the resolution.

Now for a little real world info, here is the May Netflix ISP Speed Index. Folks should keep in mind this data does not/may not reflect the numbers that you may get when you run a speed test on your local ISP. Click the right part of the red pane to see smaller ISP's.

[Wendell R. Breland]

Originally Posted by Vilya

4K disc maxes at 128 Mbps; I'll save you the effort.

Thought I had a UHD BDA white paper but do not have. Now it appears the white papers are available to members only. Many of the Wikipedia links no longer work. Oh well, I do have most of the BD BDA white papers .

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland

ABR, CBR and VBR has been around a long time, nothing new here. Even CBR (like ATSC uses) content rate varies, if the content bit rate drops then null packets are added to keep it a CBR. For anyone interested they can purchase TSReader here. Been using the Standard edition for many years .

I told you what Netflix maxes out at in the post above. Many can not get that data rate and that is where ABR kicks in, it lowers the bit rate and if needed it will lower the resolution.

Now for a little real world info, here is the May Netflix ISP Speed Index. Folks should keep in mind this data does not/may not reflect the numbers that you may get when you run a speed test on your local ISP. Click the right part of the red pane to see smaller ISP's.

My ISP, Mediacom, delivered just 3.89 Mbps when using Netflix during prime time hours according to that index. Streaming is definitely NOT ready for prime time with any of the ISPs listed.

There are articles that report that streaming services provide bitrates ranging from 16-25 Mbps; what accounts for this discrepancy? Perfect vs. real world results?

This article states that Netflix streams 4K content ranging from just 8000 Kbps to as much as 16,000 Kbps.

https://www.howtogeek.com/338983/how...s-netflix-use/

[storythecorgi]

I prefer physical over streaming because of quality. However, I just use RedBox since I only rent a new release about every other month. (Wow, that just made me realize how shitty movies have been lately).

[Wendell R. Breland]

Originally Posted by Vilya

There are articles that report that streaming services provide bitrates ranging from 16-25 Mbps; what accounts for this discrepancy? Perfect vs. real world results?

Best guess, Netflix totals the time streamed divided into the amount of data used. Streamers use TV's, PC's, Phones, BD players, game consoles, etc. and there is no telling how these devices are configured for streaming. Another guess, a lot of people are watching in SD or less.

Another variable, does the ISP use Netflix Open Connect, if not there is a good chance your stream will be slower and have buffering. My ISP does use NOC but some content will stream at a low bit rate. When it does I will check the internet speed via the Netflix app on the Sony X800 and most of the time it will show 22 mbps or > which most likely means the content is not on the local NOC and is coming from a remote server.

[alchav21]

Originally Posted by Vilya

There are articles that report that streaming services provide bitrates ranging from 16-25 Mbps; what accounts for this discrepancy? Perfect vs. real world results?

Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland

Best guess, Netflix totals the time streamed divided into the amount of data used. Streamers use TV's, PC's, Phones, BD players, game consoles, etc. and there is no telling how these devices are configured for streaming. Another guess, a lot of people are watching in SD or less.

Another variable, does the ISP use Netflix Open Connect, if not there is a good chance your stream will be slower and have buffering. My ISP does use NOC but some content will stream at a low bit rate. When it does I will check the internet speed via the Netflix app on the Sony X800 and most of the time it will show 22 mbps or > which most likely means the content is not on the local NOC and is coming from a remote server.

This Posting was very interesting because it plays into what I have said for a long time. You can put Content Servers anywhere, and I called them Media Servers. The Netflix Open Connect talks about CDN's, Content Delivery Networks, which brings Content close to your location or co-located with your ISP. So when I say what is the next Storage Device after 4K Discs, doesn't it make sense for it to be on your CDN? Then the only limiting factor is your Last Mile Connection, and Cap Limit. With Symmetrical Fiber there are no Caps. Now ISP's have to step up to the plate if they want to keep their customers.

[The_Donster]

I use both streaming and 2 BD plan with Netflix. I’ve canceled the disc plan temporarily until we get moved in and settled. Like some here, I use both of them and a couple of other streaming services to determine what’s going into the physical library or is a digital purchase. Something I love is there’s no late fee or rush to return if life gets in the way. Although I do my best to watch and return ASAP. If they had one downside for me is that they don’t seem to replace the DVD’s with BD’s.

[Paul.R.S]

I wonder about their disc rental future but "follow the money": The original content business is crazy expensive and not currently profitable. But they sure are catching eyeballs--more Emmy noms last week than HBO. The disc rental biz is not nearly as costly and returns a profit. As long as this is the P & L reality, the discs will keep shipping despite what I last read (about two years ago) is a loss of about 250,000 disc subscribers per quarter.

Living in Hollywood I can walk to a couple of high quality if not world class theaters. I see theatrically nearly all new releases in which I have interest. I get my HDR/Atmos/3D swerve on theatrically. Neighbor relations issues and uber expensive home prices have me going through another bout of questioning "Home Theater." In recent years, my home vid diet has gone from about a third to about 75% "special interest": catalog (thank you, boutiques!), music (so much opera from Deutsche Grammophon alone!) and documentary. Ironically, Netflix' legendary recommendation software (based upon how you rate what you've watched) helped create this monster.

Originally Posted by JupiterMission

Does Netflix's disc service have much from Scream Factory, Arrow, Vinegar Syndrome, Kino, Scorpion and/or Code Red? I suppose it could be a good way for me to sample titles instead of blind buying so much.

Per an earlier response, no. Once I started getting into Twilight Time a few years ago and realized I don't have the money and time to buy everything I'm interested in, I started a second disc rental service subscription, 3D-BlurayRental.com. No, they don't just rent 3D BDs. If they don't have what you seek, you can e-mail them with a Blu-ray.com link to the title and they will add it.

Originally Posted by The_Donster

If they had one downside for me is that they don’t seem to replace the DVD’s with BD’s.

Yes, this is a perennial grouse of mine. Even when it's not from one of the boutique distribbers there are many, many titles that have been released on BD for which they only have the DVD. The response upon calling to complain used to be that if they don't have it they are trying to get it. Once the original content biz exploded, I think they stopped trying. I look to 3D Blu-ray Rental for those.

That "is what it is" but I have a problem with them simultaneously continuing to charge a fee for "Blu-ray access." Their current 20 anniversary social media charm offensive doesn't do anything to make this less bothersome. But if that money helps keep the disc service in the black and sustain its longevity, so be it.

And as further proof that there are many of us who exemplify how streaming and disc consumption are hardly mutually exclusive, after being Amazon Prime mainly for the free 2-day shipping for years, this past spring saw me start streaming Amazon Video. And for me the reason wasn't/isn't convenience, it's content: Cameron/Schwarzenegger's Years Of Living Dangerously is absolutely outstanding. First season was Showtime and released on BD. Second season JC partnered with Nat Geo. Packaged media is (Fox) DVD only. Devastating show with the first season especially well-mounted. Highly recommended to and relevant for all who eat and breathe.

[Paul.R.S]

Originally Posted by taymo016

There was another recent article - http://https://www.cnbc.com/2018/01/...ork-there.html

Internal projections see DVD.com lasting until 2025.

Thanks for this.

The piece ends quoting a customer, Scalise, mentioning/boasting of his queue of "453 movies." Pshaw! I have five profiles with about that many queued discs in each of them.

[The_Donster]

I think for me Paul, it is that I don’t get compte towards my bill when they send me a DVD Paul I realize that the lesser known movies are going to be on DVD, but when it is a movie like Schindler’s List they need to upgrade to BD. Because we’re paying for a service we’re not getting.

[Paul.R.S]

Ouch--I either knew and forgot about Schindler's BD absence or didn't know about that one at all. Another egregious example. On the one hand, I can't help but think that's something that would happen only at Steven's behest. But on the other, I'd like to think his perspective would be that he wants as many people to see that picture as possible whether it be via buying, renting, on a plane, whatever . . .

I'm trying to understand what you mean by 'comped.' Since they don't charge on a per-rental basis, how much credit do you think a customer should receive when they are sent a DVD for a title that is available on BD?

I'm not so much as questioning the merit of the broader idea as I am wondering about the specific logistics of how they would implement it. I thought about this years ago and it seems to me they would need to stop applying a monthly fee and create an accounting system wherein an additional charge is applied when a BD ships. Fifty cents? (But there would still need to be an opt in so that folks agreed they were going to be shipped BDs when available. There are some BD-only titles out there. And we all know there are folks out there who still don't have BD players.)

Can you tell I miss HackingNetflix.com?

[The_Donster]

Maybe compt is a poor choice of words? I just feel I should get what I’m paying for, which is a 2 disc BD plan. So rotate movies that have been upgraded to BD and get a system that insures movies returned are replenished in a timely manner. USPS scans them in as they receive them, so it isn’t like they don’t know a disc will be in their hub that day or the next. Otherwise don’t ask for more if you can’t deliver. But despite all that, I haven’t had too much to complain about outside of that.

[Paul.R.S]

Playing Devil's Advocate somewhat, I think the service would say they are 'delivering' and we are 'getting what we pay for.' Kinda. No where do they promise to provide BDs of all titles available on the format. (This is the same company that bailed on HD DVD and thereby sent me scurrying to BBuster Online for those discs and has not yet started renting UHD BDs. And prolly won't.)

Five years ago the rationale that BDs are more expensive to manufacture started to fall flat IMO. Now I think the rationale for a lotta MIA BDs is likely that discs aren't a growth business for them. Per the CNBC article linked a page back, even an insider says they are simply keeping the service "alive" until it dies on its own. Adding more BDs to satisfy the niche within niche aud that complains about their absence is not going to add to their bottom line.

(And c-o-m-p-e-d is the spelling.)