Physical & Digital EST: The Future of Home Video Discussion Thread

[octagon]

Originally Posted by Vilya

It all comes down to probabilities and the probabilities for these undesirable outcomes are very remote.

Really. Think about what we're talking about with All the Right Moves. We're talking about a few moments of screen time being framed slightly differently.

Do you really think the chances of the full frontal version falling through the cracks is 'very remote'?

Just on a path of least resistance basis I can easily see that version fading into virtual oblivion.

Originally Posted by Vilya

I can not think of a single controversial film or novel that has been lost during my lifetime (could be due to the limitations of my memory) and I do not think it is likely to happen during the time remaining to me or even well beyond.

We're not just talking about films or books being lost or destroyed. There's also the matter of edits. Again, maybe history will preserve Leah Thompson's pubic hair but it's entirely plausible that it won't.

And the doom and gloomers are right about one thing: as more and more people move toward consuming media from centralized servers the chances of things falling through the cracks go up.

It definitely changes the equations.

Originally Posted by Vilya

It is that very internet that has enabled me to search for, and to find, the rarest titles in my collection and I do not see that ability ever declining.

As I'm fond of reminding our pal from across the pond, ever is a long time.

Originally Posted by Vilya

Maybe not "totally crazy," but amply so.

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by octagon

Really. Think about what we're talking about with All the Right Moves. We're talking about a few moments of screen time being framed slightly differently.

Do you really think the chances of the full frontal version falling through the cracks is 'very remote'?

Just on a path of least resistance basis I can easily see that version fading into virtual oblivion.



We're not just talking about films or books being lost or destroyed. There's also the matter of edits. Again, maybe history will preserve Leah Thompson's pubic hair but it's entirely plausible that it won't.

And the doom and gloomers are right about one thing: as more and more people move toward consuming media from centralized servers the chances of things falling through the cracks go up.

It definitely changes the equations.

As I'm fond of reminding our pal from across the pond, ever is a long time.

[Show spoiler]

I insist you give me a different "maybe" gif. Do your recycling elsewhere.

I did some checking and the version of All The Right Moves that has this particular revealing scene is apparently only available on the older dvd edition where the cover art depicts Tom Cruise holding a football. See here:

[Show spoiler]

This dvd commands a steep price domestically, but it is dirt cheap and readily available for those who are region free and who are not adverse to importing. The scuttle butt that I have read is that Tom Cruise is the one who insisted that this scene be reframed to show nothing below the belt.

Just another instance where we need to look beyond our own backyards and realize that 95+% of us live outside of the U.S. What may, or may not, happen here is not automatically the case worldwide.

As for centralized servers being the only source for movies and other content, I do not fear that outcome because I do not believe it will be the case. The demand for physical media exists and it is robust enough to survive and to even thrive.

Even if Hal 9000 takes over, the sheer number of physical copies already in existence all but ensures that access to them will continue. Disc replication, up to and including blu-rays, legitimate or otherwise, is easily achieved.

I sure hope our "ever" proves to be a long and happy time.

[octagon]

Originally Posted by Vilya

As for centralized servers being the only source for movies and other content, I do not fear that outcome because I do not believe it will be the case. The demand for physical media exists and it is robust enough to survive and to even thrive.

I didn't say centralized servers would become the only source for movies and other content. I said that as more and more people move to centralized servers the chances of things falling through the cracks goes up and that only stands to reason.

Titles that used to move hundreds of thousands of discs now move tens of thousands. Now, that's more than enough to keep physical media viable but it's also a lot fewer discs in circulation.

More people watching online means fewer discs out in the world. Fewer discs out in the world means a higher chance of stuff falling through the cracks.

Originally Posted by Vilya

Even if Hal 9000 takes over, the sheer number of physical copies already in existence all but ensures that access to them will continue. Disc replication, up to and including blu-rays, legitimate or otherwise, is easily achieved.

Sure, I suppose some dedicated guerrilla preservationists might devote their time to ensuring that Leah Thompson's pubic hair not be lost to future generations.

But it seems like it's also possible that humanity writ large might just shrug and watch the one where you can't see Leah Thompson's pubic hair and the one where you can see Leah Thompson's pubic hair will just fade away.

Originally Posted by Vilya

I sure hope our "evers" prove to be a long and happy time.

I definitely like our chances.

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by octagon

Fewer discs out in the world means a higher chance of stuff falling through the cracks.

Sure, I suppose some dedicated guerrilla preservationists might devote their time to ensuring that Leah Thompson's pubic hair not be lost to future generations.

I definitely like our chances.

If reading these forums on this website has shown me anything it is that film fanatics really are "dedicated guerrilla preservationists" when they need to be. The number of people here on this website alone that know the most minute detail of their favorite films is surprising. These same people discuss nearly every frame, every line of dialogue, every set piece, and every everything about a movie and every iteration of it ever released on home video or projected theatrically. They are as knowledgeable as any museum curator and as passionate as any lover.

These are our advocates for film preservation and some do take matters into their own hands as their desire to preserve and proliferate sometimes becomes a crusade.

I like our chances, too.

It is so nice to talk about something other than bitrates!

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by Vilya

If reading these forums on this website has shown me anything it is that film fanatics really are "dedicated guerrilla preservationists" when they need to be. The number of people here on this website alone that know the most minute detail of their favorite films is surprising. These same people discuss nearly every frame, every line of dialogue, every set piece, and every everything about a movie and every iteration of it ever released on home video or projected theatrically. They are as knowledgeable as any museum curator and as passionate as any lover.

These are our advocates for film preservation and some do take matters into their own hands as their desire to preserve and proliferate sometimes becomes a crusade.

I like our chances, too.

It is so nice to talk about something other than bitrates!

And that’s why I have been so persistent. Digital is the enabler. I have been saying that for a long time. You guys are amazing. If that was me saying that stuff and not Octagon, these last few pages would look VERY different.

I just wish Octagon had maybe backed me up when I was making these points as what I was saying wasn’t that different. He even rehashed my post about A.I and machine learning making it easier to filter and censor content.
This is the future in my opinion under gatekeepers such as Apple and Disney. If course, the fewer film studios out there, the worse it will get. Take Fox for example.

Also once edits take hold, it’s almost as bad as my ultimate fear. The end of movies. Like Vilya said, I know a lot of films inside out and it would be jarring watching a edited, kiddy version.

[Steedeel]

Object Based broadcasting COULD makes things better by giving each individual end user the ability to censor what they want rather than it being enforced. For example, cutting all swearing, nudity etc.. but the full fat version will be there for those that want it (most of us thank goodness).

That would probably be too simple though, content will be probably be edited beforehand. I have said it before, censorship is the enemy of every film fan and so digital should be too.

Take the art away from film, and you lose film.

[Steedeel]

In fact it may go further and be plane edits (in flight)

[Petra_Kalbrain]

Originally Posted by Steedeel

Object Based broadcasting COULD makes things better by giving each individual end user the ability to censor what they want rather than it being enforced. For example, cutting all swearing, nudity etc.. but the full fat version will be there for those that want it (most of us thank goodness).

That would probably be too simple though, content will be probably be edited beforehand. I have said it before, censorship is the enemy of every film fan and so digital should be too.

Take the art away from film, and you lose film.

Naaaaaawwww... if you don’t like the swearing/nudity/etc, may I suggest just not watching the content in question? It wasn’t created for your demographic anyways.

“... censorship is the enemy of every film...” but you just suggested that consumer self/censorship is different somehow?

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by Petra_Kalbrain

Naaaaaawwww... if you don’t like the swearing/nudity/etc, may I suggest just not watching the content in question? It wasn’t created for your demographic anyways.

“... censorship is the enemy of every film...” but you just suggested that consumer self/censorship is different somehow?

Im saying the option in would be better than forced. That way, we wouldnt have to worry about it.

[Petra_Kalbrain]

Originally Posted by Steedeel

Im saying the option in would be better than forced. That way, we wouldnt have to worry about it.

There is no “better option” when it comes to censorship. It’s still just censorship. You are altering the intent of the artist. Leave the films alone under EVERY circumstance. If someone doesn’t like the mature content, they shouldn’t be watching it. Period.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by Petra_Kalbrain

There is no “better option” when it comes to censorship. It’s still just censorship. You are altering the intent of the artist. Leave the films alone under EVERY circumstance. If someone doesn’t like the mature content, they shouldn’t be watching it. Period.

You are preaching to the converted, i have the same stance. Im just pointing out there may be a way around a potentially devastating set of restrictions.

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by Steedeel

And that’s why I have been so persistent. Digital is the enabler. I have been saying that for a long time. You guys are amazing. If that was me saying that stuff and not Octagon, these last few pages would look VERY different.

I just wish Octagon had maybe backed me up when I was making these points as what I was saying wasn’t that different. He even rehashed my post about A.I and machine learning making it easier to filter and censor content.
This is the future in my opinion under gatekeepers such as Apple and Disney. If course, the fewer film studios out there, the worse it will get. Take Fox for example.

Also once edits take hold, it’s almost as bad as my ultimate fear. The end of movies. Like Vilya said, I know a lot of films inside out and it would be jarring watching a edited, kiddy version.

You know perfectly well by now that I do not see "the end of movies" happening under any scenario. I see that possibility as being so remote as to not even be worthy of my imagination.

Ocatagon has acknowledged some of your concerns being possible; he just does not assign them the same probability of occurring that you do. Because he describes those possibilities in a more realistic manner than you do, his comments are received more as hypothetical than hysterical. You have a reliable tendency to draw the worst conclusion almost every time.

I choose to have a much more optimistic view about the future, be it deliberately naive or well founded upon historical precedence. I have not experienced the routine butchering and sanitizing of the arts during my lifetime and I do not see that happening even if it is however remotely possible.

My concerns about digital are more confined to its impact on the availability of physical media. Even that concern is a small one as I believe there will always be a sufficient market to support it. I know I continue to do my part.

There are a lot of film buffs who know their beloved movies inside and out and I do not see them rolling over and accepting heavily edited or modified versions of them. I do not think how they access this content, physically from a disc or digitally over the internet, in any way lessens their passion or their commitment to film preservation.

I think film aficionados will always fight for film preservation regardless of how they choose to view them. I think they will succeed far more than not.

I am not a fan of digital, but I just can not demonize it quite as much as you do. It has its uses, even for me, but I will always purchase a hard copy of any content that I desire, not because I fear for movies themselves but to satisfy the control freak inside me that wants an unchangeable permanent copy. The substantial uptick in quality afforded by disc rather pleases me, too.

Yes, some of the fears you hold, and too tightly in my opinion, could maybe possibly happen some dark dystopian day in the future, but the odds seem awfully low. When I want to take low odds, they come in the form of a lottery ticket- much happier possible outcome, too.

[octagon]

Originally Posted by Steedeel

And that’s why I have been so persistent. Digital is the enabler. I have been saying that for a long time. You guys are amazing. If that was me saying that stuff and not Octagon, these last few pages would look VERY different.

Would they, though? Take the blinders off and reread the last few pages. Vilya called me crazy like three different times and was snarkily dismissive of many of the points I raised.

Which is fine, of course. It's all part of the dance.

Originally Posted by Steedeel

I just wish Octagon had maybe backed me up when I was making these points as what I was saying wasn’t that different.

You say Apple and Amazon are going to kill off R rated movies. I say nothing of the sort.

We might both be selling siding but one of us is saying that siding will improve the appearance of your house and is a good investment that will result in lower heating bills and those savings can add up over the years. The other is saying that if you don't buy new siding your house will collapse and your family will die.

Originally Posted by Petra_Kalbrain

“... censorship is the enemy of every film...” but you just suggested that consumer self/censorship is different somehow?

Self-censorship is a little different what with it being an oxymoron and all.

If I decide to change the channel and watch something else I'm not 'censoring' anybody. If I decide to skim the boring parts of a book or fast forward through the boring parts of a movie I'm not 'censoring' anybody. If I look away from the screen during a particularly gruesome evisceration I'm not 'censoring' anybody.

If future consumers some day have a tool that let's them decide for themselves whether they want to excise certain words from films that might be a lot of things but it wouldn't be censorship.

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by octagon

Would they, though? Take the blinders off and reread the last few pages. Vilya called me crazy like three different times and was snarkily dismissive of many of the points I raised.

Which is fine, of course. It's all part of the dance.

To be clear, I do not think you are crazy. I do not agree with everything you say, but historically I do agree with you more often than I don't. I find your posts to be highly entertaining no matter the level of agreement I have with them. If you had your own recurring column, I would read it regularly.

It was not my intention be be snarky, but intentions and the road to hell being paved therewith often lead to unintended reactions. I usually know quite well when I am trying to be a jackass, but I admit accomplishing that sometimes without deliberate effort.

I do not see the snarkiness in my recent replies to you, but obviously you did. Self-perception often obstructs one's view.

[octagon]

Originally Posted by Vilya

To be clear, I do not think you are crazy. I do not agree with everything you say, but historically I do agree with you more often than I don't. I find your posts to be highly entertaining no matter the level of agreement I have with them.

It was not my intention be be snarky, but intentions and the road to hell being paved therewith often lead to unintended reactions. I usually know quite well when I am trying to be a jackass, but I admit accomplishing that sometimes without deliberate effort.

Sure it was. Take the crack about Hal taking over. That was meant to be a little snarky and it was totally fine. And I don't mean 'totally fine' in some above it all, taking the high road sense. I mean that kind of shot is totally in bounds.

I dish that kind of stuff out all the time. There's nothing wrong with spicing up a point.

Believe me, absolutely no offense taken.

I only brought it up to make the point that you didn't exactly fall all over yourself praising my sage and reasonable posts. There might have been differences of degree but you responded to me with the same 'yeah, okay, whatever, don't see it' tack you've taken all along.

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by octagon

Sure it was. Take the crack about Hal taking over. That was meant to be a little snarky and it was totally fine. And I don't mean 'totally fine' in some above it all, taking the high road sense. I mean that kind of shot is totally in bounds.

I dish that kind of stuff out all the time. There's nothing wrong with spicing up a point.

Believe me, absolutely no offense taken.

I only brought it up to make the point that you didn't exactly fall all over yourself praising my sage and reasonable posts. There might have been differences of degree but you responded to me with the same 'yeah, okay, whatever, don't see it' tack you've taken all along.

The Hal 9000 reference was partly due to my pondering the purchase of the upcoming 4K release of 2001: A Space Odyssey. Talk of central servers, artificial intelligence, and the recent invoking of the future depicted in Rollerball further reminded me of Hal. I thought it was slightly funny to mention him, nothing more consciously involved than that.

I have not had enough thyme to determine if you are a sage, but I find your posts to be mostly well seasoned while occasionally spicy. You have a sharp wit applied with surgical skill. If I did not agree with you on something the first time it is perfectly possible I continued to disagree with you subsequent times and for the same initial reason. Different arguments, different responses; same argument, same responses. We ALL repeat ourselves here, especially when the same topics resurface.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by octagon

Sure it was. Take the crack about Hal taking over. That was meant to be a little snarky and it was totally fine. And I don't mean 'totally fine' in some above it all, taking the high road sense. I mean that kind of shot is totally in bounds.

I dish that kind of stuff out all the time. There's nothing wrong with spicing up a point.

Believe me, absolutely no offense taken.

I only brought it up to make the point that you didn't exactly fall all over yourself praising my sage and reasonable posts. There might have been differences of degree but you responded to me with the same 'yeah, okay, whatever, don't see it' tack you've taken all along.

You really think that’s in the same league as the snark I get?

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by Vilya

The Hal 9000 reference was partly due to my pondering the purchase of the upcoming 4K release of 2001: A Space Odyssey. Talk of central servers, artificial intelligence, and the recent invoking of the future depicted in Rollerball further reminded me of Hal. I thought it was slightly funny to mention him, nothing more consciously involved than that.

I have not had enough thyme to determine if you are a sage, but I find your posts to be mostly well seasoned while occasionally spicy. You have a sharp wit applied with surgical skill. If I did not agree with you on something the first time it is perfectly possible I continued to disagree with you subsequent times and for the same initial reason. Different arguments, different responses; same argument, same responses. We ALL repeat ourselves here, especially when the same topics resurface.

Careful with the boot licking there, you might get Cherry Blossom poisoning.

[octagon]

Originally Posted by Steedeel

You really think that’s in the same league as the snark I get?

I think there are definite differences of degree.

I also think those differences would likely fade were I to spend the next couple years saying Amazon was going to kill R rated movies and watches are going to kill television sets.

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by Steedeel

Careful with the boot licking there, you might get Cherry Blossom poisoning.

Didn't know boots were made with cherry blossoms; much more interesting than boring old English Leather.