Physical & Digital EST: The Future of Home Video Discussion Thread

[zarquon]

Originally Posted by alchav21

Like I said, Sony Ultra does, and they Stream at HD+HDR and 4K+HDR. So what else do you need, and for Blu-ray Quality all you need is a constant average of 20Mbps. Very easily attainable by Sony Ultra, their HD+HDR is Fantastic......Give it a try!

A couple of posts back you said:

Originally Posted by alchav21

for Blu-ray all that is needed are 40Mbps max and for UHD 128Mbps.

Then in your next post, you said of Sony Ultra:

Originally Posted by alchav21

Their Bitrate is 25+Mbps for HD+HDR and 4K+HDR.

Now you say an average of 20 Mbps is all you need for Fantastic Quality. Do you just pull these numbers out of the air at random to suit whatever point you're trying to make at that moment?

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by alchav21

buying Discs is a thing of the past!

If only the bitrates you ascribe to Sony Ultra were as consistently the same as the hyperbole you repeat about physical media . This mantra of yours about discs never changes, but the numbers you cite for Sony Ultra are all over the place. You can not be taken seriously when you just pull these ever changing numbers out of your nether regions.

As Sony Ultra is only available to Sony TV owners; it is entirely irrelevant to many of us. We don't all have a Sony TV and we don't all live in an internet utopia. And even if we did, Sony Ultra can not equal a 4K UHD disc no matter what numbers you make up for it in your next fantasyland post.

"However, to use Ultra, you’ll need to stick with a newer Sony TV. Many titles support HDR, but selections are effectively limited to Sony Pictures movies and TV shows."

"But frankly, you’ll be hard-pressed to find virtually anyone using Ultra, as its many restrictions make it one of the least enticing services on the list, and one of the least battle-tested."

From a Dec.12, 2017 article:
https://www.digitaltrends.com/home-t...k-uhd-content/

Disc sales made up 22.9% of all home video entertainment spending in the U.S. in 2017 compared to digital sell thru only having a 10.48% share. Discs had more than twice the market share that digital sell thru had. If percentages are not your thing, try dollars: discs sales totaled $4.716 Billion dollars in 2017; digital sell thru totaled $2.154 Billion. Among purchases, disc still reigns above digital sell thru by a more than 2 to 1 margin.

I know you dislike data as it does not support the stuff you make up, but here it is again:

https://forum.blu-ray.com/attachment...1&d=1515529654

Notice, too, how the numbers stay the same each time I repost it for you.

[Dynamo of Eternia]

Originally Posted by alchav21

That's easy, Sony Ultra they Stream in 4K and HD+HDR. Their Video Quality is Fantastic. Disc Quality is here, buying Discs is a thing of the past! Their Bitrate is 25+Mbps for HD+HDR and 4K+HDR.

Great.... and you are pretty much limited to movies that have been released by Sony, I take it. They haven't exactly been known for making great films on average for quite some time now. The ones that are decent or better are few and far between. So you have a supposedly high quality service that is delivering you a lot of crap movies. Fantastic!

As for your comment about discs being a thing of the past... I look at the move towards streaming with the old saying, "If everyone else as jumping off of a bridge, would you do it, too?"

Very rarely has what the public at large gravitated towards and what enthusiasts have embraced crossed over with each other. The only real time that happened in a huge way was when the DVD format overtook VHS and became extremely popular, prior to Blu-Ray (and the short lived HD-DVD) coming out.

Prior to that point things like Laserdisc, for example, were extremely niche. And while Blu-Ray has been a relatively main stream format, it still never hit the height of DVD and probably never will. That doesn't mean that I feel "silly" for buying a movie on Blu-Ray just because it's not necessarily what "everyone else" is doing.

To take this further, I have mainstream movies in my collection, and others that are more obscure or that apply to a niche audience. Should I feel silly for enjoying the more obscure/niche movies and having them in my collection since that it not necessarily what "everyone else" generally likes to watch? If it is okay for me to enjoy a niche movie, I don't see why the means by which I watch it has to be the absolute newest and/or most mainstream means by which to watch it.

And you should REALLY be careful about toting on about what is and is not a "thing of the past." You are constantly advocating for hard-wired internet connections to get the best quality. And while I do agree with you that a wired connection is going to be better in that regard than wireless, a lot of the same people who would look at me like I'm "nuts" for buying movies on discs would look at you the same way in suggesting that they use a hard wired connection when they find wireless much more convenient. In many of their eyes, wires are a "thing of the past."

Originally Posted by zarquon

A couple of posts back you said:

Then in your next post, you said of Sony Ultra:

Now you say an average of 20 Mbps is all you need for Fantastic Quality. Do you just pull these numbers out of the air at random to suit whatever point you're trying to make at that moment?

That's pretty much how he comes up with 99.9999% of the points that he makes.

[cwhite40]

Microsoft updated their terms of service to have a no tolerance stance on offensive language. They can now ban accounts if you drop an F bomb.

I bought my games digitally since the quality was the exact same. Now I have to be careful not to have my account banned and lose access to those digital games.

Control over my content now matters more than anything to me. I’m fine with Netflix, but I’ll never buy another digital movie.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by WestMan

People mock video taken vertically. Vertical video is for WorldStar.

People used to mock nerds and geeks who sat programming on their computers. Now they are the kings of the world.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by cwhite40

Microsoft updated their terms of service to have a no tolerance stance on offensive language. They can now ban accounts if you drop an F bomb.

I bought my games digitally since the quality was the exact same. Now I have to be careful not to have my account banned and lose access to those digital games.

Control over my content now matters more than anything to me. I’m fine with Netflix, but I’ll never buy another digital movie.

I know of people who have accidentally been banned from PS Plus and lost access to their games for a few weeks. It was sorted but it happens.

[Fiffy]

Originally Posted by Vilya

I have never been the victim of a fire or a flood, for which I am very thankful, but I can find multiple daily posts on these forums about digital movies disappearing, reverting to lower resolutions, and other annoying problems that take considerable effort with recalcitrant customer service to get resolved.

If you look closely you will see they are almost all related to Movies Anywhere. This is a new system and teething problems are to be expected, but they will be fixed (frankly, given the technical complexity of connecting completely different backends I'm amazed that it works as well as it does after such a short amount of time). And nobody is forced to use it anyway. People link their accounts because they hope to benefit from things like the free 4K upgrades on iTunes and discounts at various retailers.

As for your fire and flood scenario, your hard drives with all of your downloaded content would not fare so well, either.

Well, I have offsite backups (the NAS is not just used for movies, but also for more important data). And I can always re-download the movies from iTunes if necessary, so that is another "backup".

[Fiffy]

Originally Posted by PenguinInfinity

There have been plenty of titles removed from Amazon Instant Video.

https://duckduckgo.com/html/?q=site:... time."&ia=web

I checked the first three titles from the search results ("Cyber Tracker", "Raging Hormones", "Trainspotting"). They are all currently available for purchase on Amazon Video. You probably found old releases that have been replaced with new ones.

As far as I know people's collections haven't been affected yet, but digital is only eleven years old and still in a transitional phase.

iTunes started selling movies in 2006, the same year that Blu-ray was launched. I guess that means Blu-ray is also in a "transitional phase"?

Most people who buy movies aren't collectors. They buy movies close to launch and watch them a few times. A few years later they don't care about them anymore and they sell or give them away.

Therefore a few years after each movie is released there are way more discs in circulation then people who want to own them.

My experience in trying to buy some OOP titles says otherwise. The supply dries up over the years, probably since eventually most discs end up in the hands of people who are not selling them, or they simply get lost.

[Dynamo of Eternia]

Originally Posted by cwhite40

Microsoft updated their terms of service to have a no tolerance stance on offensive language. They can now ban accounts if you drop an F bomb.

I bought my games digitally since the quality was the exact same. Now I have to be careful not to have my account banned and lose access to those digital games.

Control over my content now matters more than anything to me. I’m fine with Netflix, but I’ll never buy another digital movie.

I'm not much of an online gamer, but when I do play online, I just don't use a headset while playing. For the most part it isn't needed, and I don't have to worry about such things.

I agree that it sucks that is part of their terms of service, but that's just how I avoid such things.

[Vilya]

EULAs should not even be considered an "agreement"; they are much more like a blank check that the customer just unwittingly hands them. It is like signing a blank contract and trusting the other party to write nice things in it later.

Not one word in a EULA is etched in stone. The licensor can change any or all of it whenever they please. Most customers do not read their EULAs even once, yet alone each time they modify them. Every part of the EULA benefits the licensor; none of it helps the customer. The licensor has every right imaginable while the user has every right stripped from them. But the sheeple agree to all of this anyway.

[Dynamo of Eternia]

Originally Posted by PenguinInfinity

But it being in the terms of service is basically Microsoft saying "if we don't like the things you say we can take away all of your digital games". No one should have that power.

I fully agree. I think it's ridiculous. That is just how I avoid it being an issue for me.

[alchav21]

Originally Posted by alchav21

Let's not start knocking Digital HD for Quality, because for Blu-ray all that is needed are 40Mbps max and for UHD 128Mbps. These Speeds are easily attainable by any high end Streaming Provider. So the only thing you have left are the perceived Disc Control.

Originally Posted by zarquon

Now you say an average of 20 Mbps is all you need for Fantastic Quality. Do you just pull these numbers out of the air at random to suit whatever point you're trying to make at that moment?

Originally Posted by Vilya

If only the bitrates you ascribe to Sony Ultra were as consistently the same as the hyperbole you repeat about physical media . This mantra of yours about discs never changes, but the numbers you cite for Sony Ultra are all over the place. You can not be taken seriously when you just pull these ever changing numbers out of your nether regions.

As Sony Ultra is only available to Sony TV owners; it is entirely irrelevant to many of us. We don't all have a Sony TV and we don't all live in an internet utopia. And even if we did, Sony Ultra can not equal a 4K UHD disc no matter what numbers you make up for it in your next fantasyland post.

"However, to use Ultra, you’ll need to stick with a newer Sony TV. Many titles support HDR, but selections are effectively limited to Sony Pictures movies and TV shows."

"But frankly, you’ll be hard-pressed to find virtually anyone using Ultra, as its many restrictions make it one of the least enticing services on the list, and one of the least battle-tested."

I'm talking about maximum Bitrates for Blu-ray Players, which is 40Mbps with averages in the 20Mbps. This information came up before on this Thread, but you can Google it and look it up. Now to get higher Bitrates up to 128Mbps you'll need an UHD Disc Player. Yes Sony Ultra has these higher Bitrates, but other 4K Providers like MA and Vudu are catching up fast. I'm watching more Movies on MA, and their Picture Quality is Fantastic. I watched Star Wars: The Last Jedi, and it was Amazing! Sorry I shouldn't say Discs are Dead, but they are Dying a Slow Death!

[master gandhi]

Originally Posted by alchav21

I'm talking about maximum Bitrates for Blu-ray Players, which is 40Mbps with averages in the 20Mbps. This information came up before on this Thread, but you can Google it and look it up. Now to get higher Bitrates up to 128Mbps you'll need an UHD Disc Player. Yes Sony Ultra has these higher Bitrates, but other 4K Providers like MA and Vudu are catching up fast. I'm watching more Movies on MA, and their Picture Quality is Fantastic. I watched Star Wars: The Last Jedi, and it was Amazing! Sorry I shouldn't say Discs are Dead, but they are Dying a Slow Death!

Just because you prefer digital, why does the alternative have to be dying? Why can’t both formats coexist?

[Vilya]

Bitrate averages for a blu ray disc vary widely with the title and the codec used; there is no one size fits all answer. One of the earliest blu-rays, 3:10 To Yuma, with a now outdated VC-1 codec has a bitrate average of 23.94 Mbps.

https://www.cnet.com/news/the-ultima...ay-statistics/

Minority Report with a MPEG 4 AVC codec has a bitrate average of 37.14 Mbps. Your blanket claim that blu-ray playback has an average bitrate of 20 Mbps is simply wrong. It varies with the title and with the codec used. Even the early VC-1 codec averaged above that with 3:10 To Yuma. Blu-rays with an MPEG 4 AVC codec can average nearly double what you claim.

http://www.dvdbeaver.com/film3/blu-r...rt_blu-ray.htm

The almost entirely irrelevant Sony Ultra service offers 4K streams with bitrates lower than what many blu-rays achieve, although they do come close with some of the earlier blu-ray discs with the older codecs. You, alchav21, stated at varying times that Sony Ultra streams at 25 Mbps for 4K. Here's a link to what you said to help you avoid contradicting yourself:

https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.p...postcount=7647

Using a "+" sign after the "25" does not allow you to make claims of "to infinity and beyond," either.

Well, 2010's release of Minority Report on blu-ray has a bitrate average of 37.14 Mbps and that is almost 49% higher than what your fabled Sony Ultra can achieve. An 8 year-old blu-ray beats it handily. Sony Ultra's bitrates are not even in the same league as a 4K disc. Not even close, no cigar.

Digital purchases have the smallest market share of video content purchases. Discs outsell digital by more than 2:1. You completely ignore the data because it does not support your "there can be only one" agenda. Neither of them are dead, nor are they dying. Your chanting to the contrary does not change the reality; it only makes you look ever more ridiculous with each new post.

[djobitwan7]

I will say I am a media kind of guy, but I also stream a lot too. Major differences are why I choose to do both.

Picture quality: The 4K/UHD Blu-Ray disc will always have the best quality picture and nothing that I have seen on VUDU, Netflix or otherwise streams where it is totally crystal clear.

Sound: This is where the physical 4K/UHD discs shine the most. Only VUDU (certain titles only) has anything like Dolby Atmos going for it. Now how about DTS:X? None anywhere to be found on any streaming service.

Base on picture and sound, the physical disc will let your system do the heavy lifting and it will have no problems with it working. Plus, it frees up bandwidth issues. Not everyone has fast broadband and unless they are going to allow me to start downloading a 4K/UHD movie onto my PS4 like I used to with my PS3.....physical will always be better. Not to mention that I know people who cannot even get broadband in there area. Until it's truely everywhere.....digital is convenient, but not better.

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by octagon

You guys have never lost any discs to rot or pitting or anything like that? That's pretty lucky. I've haven't lost that many (not that I know of anyway, it's not like I pop all my discs in on a regular basis to make sure they all still play) but you accumulate enough discs over a long enough time and having a few crap out almost seems inevitable.

I have been collecting movies on disc since about 1992 beginning with laserdiscs. I adopted all of the successor formats: dvd, HD-DVD, blu-ray, 3D blu-ray, and now 4K UHD. In the intervening 26 years, I have had to replace about three dozen titles and many of those were laserdiscs.

I would estimate about half of my replacements were due to faulty discs that failed to play properly. The remaining half were exchanged because the studio made some kind of mistake, like omitting a scene, or audio sync issues, nothing that was the fault of the format itself.

https://imgur.com/a/WodC2
^Example of Mill Creek's spelling skills and quality control. Mill Creek did not offer corrected discs as this mistake did not affect playback; it just made them look like amateurs.

In almost every instance not involving a laserdisc, the replacement cost me nothing but the time to make the request for a new copy.

I watch about 8-9% of my library per year, so it is possible that I have some defective discs that I am not yet aware of, but I suspect that there are few such disappointments awaiting my discovery. My disc collection has been amazingly reliable, but that is only my individual experience.

[alchav21]

Originally Posted by alchav21

I'm talking about maximum Bitrates for Blu-ray Players, which is 40Mbps with averages in the 20Mbps. This information came up before on this Thread, but you can Google it and look it up. Now to get higher Bitrates up to 128Mbps you'll need an UHD Disc Player. Yes Sony Ultra has these higher Bitrates, but other 4K Providers like MA and Vudu are catching up fast. I'm watching more Movies on MA, and their Picture Quality is Fantastic. I watched Star Wars: The Last Jedi, and it was Amazing! Sorry I shouldn't say Discs are Dead, but they are Dying a Slow Death!

Originally Posted by master gandhi

Just because you prefer digital, why does the alternative have to be dying? Why can’t both formats coexist?

Originally Posted by Vilya

Bitrate averages for a blu ray disc vary widely with the title and the codec used; there is no one size fits all answer. One of the earliest blu-rays, 3:10 To Yuma, with a now outdated VC-1 codec has a bitrate average of 23.94 Mbps.

Using a "+" sign after the "25" does not allow you to make claims of "to infinity and beyond," either.

Well, 2010's release of Minority Report on blu-ray has a bitrate average of 37.14 Mbps and that is almost 49% higher than what your fabled Sony Ultra can achieve. An 8 year-old blu-ray beats it handily. Sony Ultra's bitrates are not even in the same league as a 4K disc. Not even close, no cigar.

You're right Master, Disc and Digital could coexist, I still have a large Disc Collection. I just get tired of people putting Digital HD down, when for Blu-ray all you need is 40Mbps Bandwidth. With your high end Streaming Providers these Bitrates are easily attainable.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by alchav21

You're right Master, Disc and Digital could coexist, I still have a large Disc Collection. I just get tired of people putting Digital HD down, when for Blu-ray all you need is 40Mbps Bandwidth. With your high end Streaming Providers these Bitrates are easily attainable.

Digital HD is the commoner and Blu-ray and 4K Blu-ray are royalty.

Digital HD is the reduced fat ready meal to bluray’s Michelin Star meal.

Digital HD is to Blu-ray what Gynesis is to T2.

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by alchav21

...when for Blu-ray all you need is 40Mbps Bandwidth. With your high end Streaming Providers these Bitrates are easily attainable.

Except that none of them offer bitrates of 40 Mbps; your much ballyhooed, "state of the art" Sony Ultra offers only 25 Mbps by your own admission.

Real world bitrates are what matter, not theoretical rates that do not exist.

The epidemic use of hyperbole bothers me and that is why I criticize it so strongly when I encounter it so very, very often.

[Fiffy]

Originally Posted by Vilya

Except that none of them offer bitrates of 40 Mbps; your much ballyhooed, "state of the art" Sony Ultra offers only 25 Mbps by your own admission.

Not that I want to get involved in this bitrate p*ing contest, but 4K streaming services use a more efficient codec (H.265) than BD. Assuming 40% better compression at similar quality, 25 Mbps H.265 is about equivalent to 35 Mbps H.264. Add HDR into the picture and the result is more than good enough for most people.

Real world bitrates are what matter, not theoretical rates that do not exist.

And here I thought it's image quality that matters.

Subjectively comparing iTunes 4K and UHD BD I find that the difference is surprisingly small and really only noticeable when pixel peeping.

The epidemic use of hyperbole bothers me and that is why I criticize it so strongly when I encounter it so very, very often.

True, but that is balanced out by another similarly hyperbolic poster on the other side.