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Old 10-06-2019, 04:43 PM   #17901
The_Donster The_Donster is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steedeel View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vilya View Post
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Originally Posted by The_Donster View Post
Nah, it is a debate. Because it will turn into the same tired discussion weíve had with them over and over again. It has become one of the many staples in this thread
There is no "them", it is just the same misinformed person stubbornly parroting the same debunked crap over and over again. Repeating a fallacy is not debating; there is no reasoning involved in it.

If I kept telling everyone that the moon was made of green cheese, would I be debating the composition of the moon or I would I just be an unrelenting fool?
That was obviously a dig at me, Iím used to it!
You have to admit Steedeel, alchav21 and you are two sides of the same coin that make bold proclamations that tend to rattle the thread. Although, lately youíve actually been the voice of reason and tried to keep it on track. So I appreciate that and wasnít trying to make a dig at you solely. You arenít the only nutter in the thread now
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Old 10-06-2019, 04:58 PM   #17902
Steedeel Steedeel is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Donster View Post
You have to admit Steedeel, alchav21 and you are two sides of the same coin that make bold proclamations that tend to rattle the thread. Although, lately youíve actually been the voice of reason and tried to keep it on track. So I appreciate that and wasnít trying to make a dig at you solely. You arenít the only nutter in the thread now
Thanks Donster! You have warmed my heart!
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Old 10-06-2019, 05:11 PM   #17903
The_Donster The_Donster is offline
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Old 10-06-2019, 05:21 PM   #17904
rui no onna rui no onna is offline
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Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland View Post
Searched for real world test and did not find much info. CenturyLink says 210 Mbps - 1 G for AC. One of these days I may do a file transfer speed comparison between HDD to HDD, HDD to HDD over LAN and HDD to HDD over Wi-Fi.
SmallNetBuilder has plenty of router reviews and they do attenuation testing as well.

Here's one of their top ranked models:
https://www.smallnetbuilder.com/wire...owall=&start=2

Copying comics to iPad, I've been pleasantly surprised to get 40 MB/s (320 Mbps) throughput at times. Sadly, at other times I only get 10-15 MB/s (80-120 Mbps). When I'm only getting 80-120 Mbps, there's likely to be too many dropped packets to reliably stream UHD Blu-ray (no buffering). Given interference could easily be coming from neighbors, the microwave, etc, there's not much I can do about it. My router's pretty old though (TP-Link Archer C7 AC1750).

Mind, file transfers are more forgiving of dropped packets than unbuffered video streaming. Copying files, when a packet is dropped, it just gets sent again with you being none the wiser. Unbuffered video streaming, you'll usually notice a glitch in the video or audio. That's why Netflix, YouTube, etc. all buffer.

Quote:
If you looked at the PDF of my LAN you would see most of my stuff is 1000Base-T wired with shielded cable.
PDF download link doesn't work properly on iPad (just goes to a timer loop).
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Old 10-06-2019, 06:57 PM   #17905
Wendell R. Breland Wendell R. Breland is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rui no onna View Post
Mind, file transfers are more forgiving of dropped packets than unbuffered video streaming. Copying files, when a packet is dropped, it just gets sent again with you being none the wiser. Unbuffered video streaming, you'll usually notice a glitch in the video or audio. That's why Netflix, YouTube, etc. all buffer.
Internet video data is delivered in burst and varies in speed therefore you need to buffer the data. Actual packet loss should be minimal.

ATSC and DVB-S is one way which means no packets can be resent. FEC, interleaving, etc. can normally correct errors. See the TSReader screen shot below. That is video data from AMC-21 satellite, transponder 24. The feeds can go for hours on end without a single error. The Mux bit rate runs about 67 Mbps and hits 120 Mbps pretty often.

Sorry about the PDF, must be because I am using the free version. I am a cheapskate at times.

ADD: See if this link works for the PDF here.

[Show spoiler]

Last edited by Wendell R. Breland; 10-06-2019 at 07:09 PM.
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Old 10-06-2019, 08:09 PM   #17906
alchav21 alchav21 is offline
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Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland View Post
Searched for real world test and did not find much info.
Yes the Real World is much different than all your graphs and ideal test results. I did Contracting after retiring from PacBell in the Silicon Valley, and all the Companies there ran Cat5/6 to all their Workstations and Phone Systems. The Professionals prefer Hard Wire, I'm surprised there is so much push back here. How do you guys feel about Firmware Update, should that be over Hard Wire? Here is Wired vs Wireless from HGTV.

https://www.hgtv.com/remodel/mechani...-home-networks
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Old 10-06-2019, 08:17 PM   #17907
Anthony P Anthony P is offline
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Well most people love their Wireless, but I think it's mostly for convenience and the only choice they have. I see with your new UHD TV you chose Wired, because the connection was there but you put it there for a reason. If you have a chance you should try Wireless to see which one you like the most but it has to be over a period of time not just a quick test. Yes I prefer Wired, but there is no need to get all upset you guys could use anything you want. I have just always preferred Wired because of the consistent reliable Bandwidth.
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Originally Posted by The_Donster View Post
I donít think it is that you prefer wired as much as you regurgitate the same argument over and over again that drives everyone insane alchav21
i prefer wired as well. Like don said people don't have an issue with your preference. The problem is that you assume your preference makes a difference, Apple , Vudu, Netflix... won't stream 100mbps to someone that uses a wired connection. And so the quality and comparison to UHD BD won't change.
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Old 10-06-2019, 08:18 PM   #17908
rui no onna rui no onna is offline
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How do you guys feel about Firmware Update, should that be over Hard Wire?
Since firmware updates are usually binaries downloaded to local storage with verification/error checking before installation, I use wireless on those all the time (e.g. iOS and Android updates). My Kindle is jailbroken though so that one is not allowed to update.
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Old 10-06-2019, 08:34 PM   #17909
Anthony P Anthony P is offline
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Originally Posted by alchav21 View Post
The Professionals prefer Hard Wire
absolutely, and why my permanent devices in my home are hard wired. devices are cheaper with less issues, more secure, possibility for higher BW, less upgrading....

But none of those reasons affect AV quality streamed over the internet.

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How do you guys feel about Firmware Update, should that be over Hard Wire?
no difference
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Old 10-06-2019, 08:47 PM   #17910
Vilya Vilya is offline
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I have always updated the firmware on all of my disc players (and my android tablet/ smartphone) over a wireless connection and I have done it this way for many years without any problems of any kind.

Last edited by Vilya; 10-06-2019 at 09:20 PM.
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Old 10-06-2019, 08:49 PM   #17911
Vilya Vilya is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alchav21 View Post
Yes the Real World is much different than all your graphs and ideal test results. I did Contracting after retiring from PacBell in the Silicon Valley, and all the Companies there ran Cat5/6 to all their Workstations and Phone Systems. The Professionals prefer Hard Wire, I'm surprised there is so much push back here. How do you guys feel about Firmware Update, should that be over Hard Wire? Here is Wired vs Wireless from HGTV.

https://www.hgtv.com/remodel/mechani...-home-networks
Professionals prefer shielded Cat6 and above or, better still, double shielded Cat7. No one with any credibility recommends using unshielded Cat5.

"Both Cat 3 and Cat 5 Ethernet cables are, at this point, obsolete."

https://www.digitaltrends.com/comput...les-explained/

The article that you linked to is blatantly wrong. Wireless networks easily provide more than enough bandwidth for multiple users to stream in 4K resolution simultaneously. Even outdated N routers can easily do this and newer AC routers won't even break a sweat. How ancient is this article anyway? It talks about streaming in 1080i like that is some massive bandwidth hog.

""Streaming one Netflix 1080i movie can max out a home's wireless network"

^That is either a joke or a relic from the long forgotten past.

Please do not talk about the "real world'" as you are the most far removed from of it of almost anyone posting here. Unlike you, Wendell provides actual objective test results and he offers links to validate his comments. You give us your faulty quarter century old recollections from when you installed internet back in the 90's interspersed with your unsupported opinions.

Last edited by Vilya; 10-06-2019 at 11:35 PM.
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Old 10-06-2019, 09:06 PM   #17912
Wendell R. Breland Wendell R. Breland is offline
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Yes the Real World is much different than all your graphs and ideal test results.
You are the one that is always talking about the speed between your router and TV. I just pointed out the built-in wireless AC is much faster than the RJ45 connection you are using. Obviously you need a good AC access point. My test are just that, they are not ideal and I clearly stated how they were made. Way back I told you how to make the test so you could see for yourself.

Quote:
The Professionals prefer Hard Wire, I'm surprised there is so much push back here.
I am a retired professional and we used the appropriate tools for the job. The IT folks did the same, mostly wired but we had some wireless. Most distribution was through large managed switches. Professionals do not approach a job with a preconceived notion, we analyze the need/problem and we come up with a solution. If a RF microphone does not work we find out why and fix the problem. There have been times where I tried to used a wired microphone and ended up using a RF microphone (wireless) because we were in close proximity to a AM radio station. The wired microphone had a lot of hash because of this, the wireless mic did not.

Quote:
How do you guys feel about Firmware Update, should that be over Hard Wire?
All my wireless devices have a constant stream of updates and do so without problems. How the hell am I going to update a Android tablet over a wired connection? And what would be the purpose?
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Old 10-06-2019, 09:23 PM   #17913
Wendell R. Breland Wendell R. Breland is offline
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No one with any credibility recommends using unshielded Cat5/5e.
For anyone that looks at my LAN PDF you will see that I am using CAT5e shielded cable (bulk, Cable Wholesalers). It was installed many years ago. All patch panel connectors, Keystone jacks, etc. are shielded (metal) as well. My longest run is 76' feet so I have no problems doing 1 Gig to all spigots.

For long runs at 1 Gig you need the best cable around. Sometime back Vilya provided several links on this subject.
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Old 10-06-2019, 09:26 PM   #17914
Vilya Vilya is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland View Post
For anyone that looks at my LAN PDF you will see that I am using CAT5e shielded cable (bulk, Cable Wholesalers). It was installed many years ago. All patch panel connectors, Keystone jacks, etc. are shielded (metal) as well. My longest run is 76' feet so I have no problems doing 1 Gig to all spigots.

For long runs at 1 Gig you need the best cable around. Sometime back Vilya provided several links on this subject.
Cat5e is NOT shielded according to this source, scroll to first chart therein:

https://www.digitaltrends.com/comput...les-explained/

Only Cat6 and above is shielded according to it.

"There are no physical differences between Cat 5 and Cat 5e cables, but 5e Ethernet is built under more stringent testing standards to eliminate crosstalk."

"Cat 6 cables are more tightly wound than their predecessors, and are often outfitted with foil or braided shielding. This shielding protects the twisted pairs of wires inside the Ethernet cable, helping to prevent crosstalk and noise interference."

"Cat 6a cables are always shielded"

"Cat 7 cables are always shielded."

Last edited by Vilya; 10-06-2019 at 09:39 PM.
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Old 10-06-2019, 09:44 PM   #17915
rui no onna rui no onna is offline
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Cat5e is NOT shielded according to this source, scroll to first chart therein:

https://www.digitaltrends.com/comput...les-explained/

Only Cat6 and above is shielded according to it.
Shielding is not part of the spec but you can buy shielded cat5e cables. Of course, with how cheap better cables are, no reason to buy cat5e anymore.
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Old 10-06-2019, 09:46 PM   #17916
Vilya Vilya is offline
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In an unrelated matter, I am bored with Netflix, again, and I have cancelled it, again.

I kept it for 10 months this time, which is a new record, but I find very little of their "original" content to be either original or compelling. Their self-made content is largely disposable and uninspired. Frankly, I have better uses for the $16 monthly fee like instead buying a blu-ray of something not only worthy of watching, but of actually owning.

Last edited by Vilya; 10-06-2019 at 10:02 PM.
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Old 10-06-2019, 09:51 PM   #17917
Vilya Vilya is offline
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Originally Posted by rui no onna View Post
Shielding is not part of the spec but you can buy shielded cat5e cables. Of course, with how cheap better cables are, no reason to buy cat5e anymore.
I am aware of this claim about some Cat5e being built above specification, but seeing as this 2019 article states that there are no physical differences between Cat5 and Cat 5e, I tend to believe that most Cat5e is not shielded. It is just made to a higher standard, but no real shielding is in place like with Cat6 and above.

I use Cat6a and Cat7 because these are ALWAYS shielded; no need to look specifically for it as it is a standard feature on these cables.

Last edited by Vilya; 10-06-2019 at 10:01 PM.
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Old 10-06-2019, 10:21 PM   #17918
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I am aware of this claim about some Cat5e, but seeing as this 2019 article states that there are no physical differences between Cat5 and Cat 5e, I tend not to believe that Cat5e is truly shielded. It is just made to a higher standard, but no real shielding is in place like with Cat6 and above.

I use Cat 6a and Cat7 because these are ALWAYS shielded; no need to look specifically for it as it is a standard feature on these cables.
Cat5e UTP is unshielded. Cat5e STP or (S)FTP really are shielded. This is something trivially easy to verify. Just cut the cable to see the construction. If you bought a bulk roll, you don't even have to cut it.

Of course, buying shielded Cat5e was something one might've done in early 2000s. Perhaps even earlier. Late 2000s, Cat6a with support for 10Gbe was a much better investment despite the higher price particularly if one is doing cable runs inside walls.
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Old 10-06-2019, 11:03 PM   #17919
Wendell R. Breland Wendell R. Breland is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vilya View Post
Cat5e is NOT shielded according to this source, scroll to first chart therein:
I am surprised but some shielded CAT5e items still here. Do I need to take pictures of some of my items?
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Old 10-06-2019, 11:16 PM   #17920
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Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland View Post
I am surprised but some shielded CAT5e items still here. Do I need to take pictures of some of my items?
Pictures? I want a full 4K resolution with HDR video autopsy.

I am kinda surprised that the article that I cited made no mention that some Cat5e had shielding; it must have been going straight by the standards referenced by rui no onna. It did point out that some Cat6 cable was shielded while some was not.
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