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Old 02-25-2022, 01:08 PM   #5181
Geoff D Geoff D is online now
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Originally Posted by MechaGodzilla View Post
Heh, feeling ready to go OLED? I agree, the A80J is priced well at the moment. But then, in a year we'll be able to say the same for the A80K when it and the rest of the K lineup has been discounted. Might be interesting to wait and see how that X95K performs?
I'm not convinced that LCD will ever get up to the quality of the ZD9 again. And yeah, we could be saying the same things about the reductions on the K OLEDs in a year's time, then the L in a year after that, M the year after. Sometimes you gotta roll the dice.

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Originally Posted by Derb View Post
ASBL

Run away now.
I thought it wasn't *that* bad on the Sonys? If it dims down during constantly bright full-field content like sports then I'm not bothered, I don't watch live TV on my main 'movie' TV, it's whether it does it on movie playback like the LGs. As long as it's not as goofy as that i.e. "I can't detect any movement in this very dark scene! Brightness, come on down!" then I can live with it.
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Old 02-25-2022, 01:29 PM   #5182
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Originally Posted by Geoff D View Post
I'm not convinced that LCD will ever get up to the quality of the ZD9 again. And yeah, we could be saying the same things about the reductions on the K OLEDs in a year's time, then the L in a year after that, M the year after. Sometimes you gotta roll the dice.
You may be right. I do think the X95K is going to be a killer TV in its own right, but to you, as the owner of a ZD9? At best, I would guess the X95K would be better in some ways, inferior in others, and on the whole you'd get something that - on balance - basically matched it.

And true enough, I was thinking that while I wrote that. There's always a next year of TVs coming, and if you give in to that fear of missing out... well, you can end up waiting forever.

Quote:
I thought it wasn't *that* bad on the Sonys? If it dims down during constantly bright full-field content like sports then I'm not bothered, I don't watch live TV on my main 'movie' TV, it's whether it does it on movie playback like the LGs. As long as it's not as goofy as that i.e. "I can't detect any movement in this very dark scene! Brightness, come on down!" then I can live with it.
Did you see what FlatpanelsHD wrote about that comparison of the new A95K vs. the A90J? More specifically this bit:

Quote:
A more interesting observation happened after 10-15 minutes of talking to Sony's representatives towards the end of our presentation. A95K and A90J were left idle in the Google TV menus and after a while A90J initiated its dimming algorithm to reduce the risk of burn-in. A95K remained bright and alive. I pointed out the difference which surprised even the Sony representatives – they had received the sample only a few days before. It is not as evident from the photo as it was standing there but it could suggest that the QD-OLED panel employs a less aggressive anti-burn-in dimming algorithm for static images or gaming content with a map, HUD etc. We did not have time to investigate further but we will examine this aspect more in-depth once we get our hands on a review sample.
Maybe QD-OLED is going to be the savior here? Maybe.
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Old 02-25-2022, 01:51 PM   #5183
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoff D View Post
I thought it wasn't *that* bad on the Sonys? If it dims down during constantly bright full-field content like sports then I'm not bothered, I don't watch live TV on my main 'movie' TV, it's whether it does it on movie playback like the LGs. As long as it's not as goofy as that i.e. "I can't detect any movement in this very dark scene! Brightness, come on down!" then I can live with it.
Both Sony & LG have ASBL.

The only difference is you can ďminimizeĒ the effect on LG & you canít on Sony.

Keep it Classy tech did some testing on both the C1 & A80J.

The A80J decreases 50% brightness when ASBL kicks in.
The C1 decreases brightness 15% on ďLowĒ & 30% on ďHighĒ

Wether the Sony decreases brightness in Dolby Vision or prolonged dark scenes, I canít answer that. It would be the very first thing I would put to the test knowing what I know now about OLEDs.
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Old 02-25-2022, 02:38 PM   #5184
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Originally Posted by MechaGodzilla View Post
You may be right. I do think the X95K is going to be a killer TV in its own right, but to you, as the owner of a ZD9? At best, I would guess the X95K would be better in some ways, inferior in others, and on the whole you'd get something that - on balance - basically matched it.

And true enough, I was thinking that while I wrote that. There's always a next year of TVs coming, and if you give in to that fear of missing out... well, you can end up waiting forever.



Did you see what FlatpanelsHD wrote about that comparison of the new A95K vs. the A90J? More specifically this bit:



Maybe QD-OLED is going to be the savior here? Maybe.
I'm not sure that QD panels will mean the end of ASBL/ABL, it may well prove that that sample model didn't have the relevant firmware activated because it was meant to "pop" in a showroom.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Derb View Post
Both Sony & LG have ASBL.

The only difference is you can “minimize” the effect on LG & you can’t on Sony.

Keep it Classy tech did some testing on both the C1 & A80J.

The A80J decreases 50% brightness when ASBL kicks in.
The C1 decreases brightness 15% on “Low” & 30% on “High”

Wether the Sony decreases brightness in Dolby Vision or prolonged dark scenes, I can’t answer that. It would be the very first thing I would put to the test knowing what I know now about OLEDs.
I know they *have* ASBL, they all do, it's endemic to OLED. But it's not general ASBL dimming when detecting static logos or ABL with sustained full-field brightness that bothers me so much, it's more this specific silliness with the LG implementation and how it gets fooled by low brightness content, especially with DV as you've noted. I can't do without DV when it comes to the rescue of some of the worst UHD encodes I've ever seen so that's a deal breaker. There just seems to be very little forums chatter about the Sonys and how aggressive their ASBL is in this regard, but I guess no news is good news. I'll just have to find out for myself.
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Old 02-25-2022, 03:11 PM   #5185
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This is the wrong thread for it but I'm this close to ordering a 77" A80J, it's such a good price at the moment.
Now you know I'm not a tech-head (I just buy good gear), but I'm very happy with mine and have had no problem with dimming, on Dune or Eternals or anything else. I vote yea. Have fun...
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Old 02-25-2022, 03:44 PM   #5186
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Question for all of you: What are you feelings towards the "Real Cinema" function on these TVs?? Do any of you have it "On"??

I have it "Off" because it seems to look to unnatural to me, too smooth. I know that it allows 5:5 pulldown or whatever that may be, but I thought 5:5 pulldown happens automatically once a 24p (24Hz) signal is being sent to the TV?? My Panasonic 820 has 24p activated and I can see from the signal menu that a 24 Hz signal is being received by the TV, so I feel as though 24p is working properly.

I've just heard several reviewers saying that it needs to be on for 24p to be properly replicated on screen. To me though, "Real Cinema" just looks too smooth on my C9. And I don't have the frame interpolation on either.
I normally have "Real Cinema" set to "On." OLED65C9AUA. I've found LG's implementation of "Real Cinema" to be a bit odd, at least on my C9. If "Real Cinema" is set to "Off" my C9 will not pass and display 23.976/24 Hz. It will instead perform 3:2 pulldown to conform to 59.94/60 Hz. I was very skeptical that this was actually the case when I first read about it, but I've found the resulting judder (w/Real Cinema Off) to be apparent when evaluating with Spears & Munsil's "Stock Ticker" and "xXx" patterns. I'm fairly insensitive to this judder in normal viewing and usually can't tell the difference. (Judder being some of the frames being displayed longer than others.) With "Real Cinema" set to "On" these patterns exhibit normal 24 fps stutter with no judder (normal for displays with long frame hold times). There is no evidence of smoothing or frame interpolation. (I keep "TruMotion" turned Off.)

With "Real Cinema" set to "On" my C9 also performs inverse 3:2 pulldown only when it detects 24 fps cadence in a 59.94/60 Hz source video. It does an excellent job of detection, but I have had it get tripped up apparently from false detection on broadcast TV. The one I've found that seems to trip it up fairly consistently is NBC's "Chicago Fire." This is evident by strangely jerky motion (frame drops) that is most apparent in long pans. I've only noticed it get tripped up one other time, on one of the old "Law & Order" repeats if I'm remembering correctly. If I notice weird motion on broadcast TV, I turn "Real Cinema" Off, and it has restored normal motion in the above cases.

If the source is 23.976/24 Hz, or true 59.94/60 Hz source video (or 30 fps) with no 24 fps cadence detected, then having "Real Cinema" On is not altering the video for display.

If the source is 23.976/24 Hz, then having "Real Cinema" Off IS altering the video for display.

For clarification between stutter and judder (from rtings.com):
Quote:
Judder and stutter, although they sound similar, aren't the same thing. Stutter is about the amount of time each frame is held on for after the pixels transition, while judder is an inconsistent frame time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PUsokrJosh305 View Post
The other and biggest reason why people might use "Real Cinema/Cinema Screen" is to smooth out the judder that comes with 24 fps films. Some people are bothered by the natural judder (even though the LG OLEDs do a great job of reproducing 24 fps) and so "Real Cinema" will smooth that out. You can also use TruMotion to reduce the judder.
24 fps films do not have judder if each frame is shown at the same time interval (1/24th of a second). Judder results from the 3:2 pulldown into 60 hz. This because the frame display intervals (of the original 24 fps frames) alternate back and forth between 1/30th of a second, and 1/20th of a second. There also isn't necessarily natural stutter in 24fps film. The stutter results from the frame being displayed longer than it was exposed (how long the shutter was open) when filmed.

Last edited by KC-Technerd; 02-25-2022 at 09:17 PM.
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Old 02-25-2022, 09:16 PM   #5187
PUsokrJosh305 PUsokrJosh305 is offline
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Originally Posted by KC-Technerd View Post
I normally have "Real Cinema" set to "On." OLED65C9AUA. I've found LG's implementation of "Real Cinema" to be a bit odd, at least on my C9. If "Real Cinema" is set to "Off" my C9 will not pass and display 23.976/24 Hz. It will instead perform 3:2 pulldown to conform to 59.94/60 Hz. I was very skeptical that this was actually the case when I first read about it, but I've found the resulting judder (w/Real Cinema Off) to be apparent when evaluating with Spears & Munsil's "Stock Ticker" and "xXx" patterns. I'm fairly insensitive to this judder in normal viewing and usually can't tell the difference. (Judder being some of the frames being displayed longer than others.) With "Real Cinema" set to "On" these patterns exhibit normal 24 fps stutter with no judder (normal for displays with long frame hold times). There is no evidence of smoothing or frame interpolation. (I keep "TruMotion" turned Off.)

With "Real Cinema" set to "On" my C9 also performs inverse 3:2 pulldown only when it detects 24 fps cadence in a 59.94/60 Hz source video. It does an excellent job of detection, but I have had it get tripped up apparently from false detection on broadcast TV. The one I've found that seems to trip it up fairly consistently is NBC's "Chicago Fire." This is evident by strangely jerky motion (frame drops) that are most apparent in long pans. I've only noticed it get tripped up one other time, on one of the old "Law & Order" repeats if I'm remembering correctly. If I notice weird motion on broadcast TV, I turn "Real Cinema" Off, and it has restored normal motion in the above cases.

If the source is 23.976/24 Hz, or true 59.94/60 Hz source video (or 30 fps) with no 24 fps cadence detected, then having "Real Cinema" On is not altering the video for display.

If the source is 23.976/24 Hz, then having "Real Cinema" Off IS altering the video for display.

For clarification between stutter and judder (from rtings.com):




24 fps films do not have judder if each frame is shown at the same time interval (1/24th of a second). Judder results from the 3:2 pulldown into 60 hz. This because the frame display intervals (of the original 24 fps frames) alternate back and forth between 1/30th of a second, and 1/20th of a second. There also isn't necessarily natural stutter in 24fps film. The stutter results from the frame being displayed longer than it was exposed (how long the shutter was open) when filmed.
That's really weird it won't pass 24 hz with Real Cinema "Off." What device are you using and what settings do you have it? It just doesn't make sense that your C9, which btw is my TV as well, doesn't pass 24 Hz with it "Off."

I have Real Cinema "Off" and can pass a 24 Hz signal just fine. I have the 24p setting "On" on my Panasonic 820. When playing movies, the display shows it's in 24 Hz or 23.976ish. The 24p setting also gives me full 10 bit or 12 bit playback of the films. With the 24p set "Off" on the 820, the playback is 8 Bit 60 Hz/60 fps. I had 24p off for the longest time and was wondering why some HDR10 films did not match up with their Dolby Vision counterparts. That 24p setting was the answer.

Now if you can't adjust say an app or device to output 24p/ 24 Hz aka it remains at 60 Hz, then it makes sense to use the Real Cinema setting so it can extract the 24 fps from the device/app and try to replicate true 24 fps the best it can. But that's only if it's at 60 Hz. Otherwise I feel Real Cinema only adds frames to the picture.

Last edited by PUsokrJosh305; 02-25-2022 at 09:22 PM.
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Old 02-26-2022, 12:04 AM   #5188
KC-Technerd KC-Technerd is offline
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Originally Posted by PUsokrJosh305 View Post
That's really weird it won't pass 24 hz with Real Cinema "Off." What device are you using and what settings do you have it? It just doesn't make sense that your C9, which btw is my TV as well, doesn't pass 24 Hz with it "Off."
I'm using an Oppo UDP-203 connected directly to the display by HDMI (not passing through an AVR). Its output frame rate is 23.976p as shown in the image below. The C9 is reporting the input as 23.95Hz as seen in the second image below, but the 3:2 60Hz judder is evident with "Real Cinema" set to Off, so there is no question that my C9 is applying 3:2 pulldown for conversion to 59.94Hz prior to display of the 23.976Hz input. When I say "If 'Real Cinema' is set to 'Off' my C9 will not pass and display 23.976/24 Hz," I mean that the display itself is not displaying the frames at a 23.976 Hz interval, even though the display is reporting that it is receiving 23.95Hz input. This is why the several reviewers you referred to in your original post regarding this said that Real Cinema needs to be on for 24p to be properly replicated on screen. It's true! Again, I was also skeptical of this before I evaluated it myself using the Spears & Munsil patterns. I think it's a really oddball implementation by LG for 23.976/24Hz to not be passed through and correctly displayed when Real Cinema is Off. The application of 3:2 pulldown is unnecessary processing that undoes the purpose of having 24Hz input available.





Quote:
Originally Posted by PUsokrJosh305 View Post
Now if you can't adjust say an app or device to output 24p/ 24 Hz aka it remains at 60 Hz, then it makes sense to use the Real Cinema setting so it can extract the 24 fps from the device/app and try to replicate true 24 fps the best it can. But that's only if it's at 60 Hz. Otherwise I feel Real Cinema only adds frames to the picture.
In this case, or if the source is 24p film that has had 3:2 pulldown to 59.94/60Hz, then Real Cinema does perfectly restore the original frame interval to 23.976/24Hz, as long as it is detecting that in the 59.94/60Hz video. Inverse 3:2 pulldown isn't a difficult process with varying results. Detection of the 24p cadence is the difficult part. Real Cinema is not adding new or interpolated frames to the picture whether On or Off. It will in fact remove frames from 59.94/60Hz if it erroneously detects 24p cadence while On.

Also, I think the video below does a good job of showing what judder is vs. stutter. It also illustrates what happens with 3:2 pulldown.


Last edited by KC-Technerd; 02-26-2022 at 12:29 AM.
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Old 02-26-2022, 01:35 AM   #5189
PUsokrJosh305 PUsokrJosh305 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KC-Technerd View Post
I'm using an Oppo UDP-203 connected directly to the display by HDMI (not passing through an AVR). Its output frame rate is 23.976p as shown in the image below. The C9 is reporting the input as 23.95Hz as seen in the second image below, but the 3:2 60Hz judder is evident with "Real Cinema" set to Off, so there is no question that my C9 is applying 3:2 pulldown for conversion to 59.94Hz prior to display of the 23.976Hz input. When I say "If 'Real Cinema' is set to 'Off' my C9 will not pass and display 23.976/24 Hz," I mean that the display itself is not displaying the frames at a 23.976 Hz interval, even though the display is reporting that it is receiving 23.95Hz input. This is why the several reviewers you referred to in your original post regarding this said that Real Cinema needs to be on for 24p to be properly replicated on screen. It's true! Again, I was also skeptical of this before I evaluated it myself using the Spears & Munsil patterns. I think it's a really oddball implementation by LG for 23.976/24Hz to not be passed through and correctly displayed when Real Cinema is Off. The application of 3:2 pulldown is unnecessary processing that undoes the purpose of having 24Hz input available.







In this case, or if the source is 24p film that has had 3:2 pulldown to 59.94/60Hz, then Real Cinema does perfectly restore the original frame interval to 23.976/24Hz, as long as it is detecting that in the 59.94/60Hz video. Inverse 3:2 pulldown isn't a difficult process with varying results. Detection of the 24p cadence is the difficult part. Real Cinema is not adding new or interpolated frames to the picture whether On or Off. It will in fact remove frames from 59.94/60Hz if it erroneously detects 24p cadence while On.

Also, I think the video below does a good job of showing what judder is vs. stutter. It also illustrates what happens with 3:2 pulldown.

Judder on TVs Explained (Motion 5/5) - Rtings.com
The same website (rtings) is also saying that the LG C9 is judder free @24 fps, naturally. Now it does stutter because of how OLEDs have instant pixel response.

https://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/lg/c9-oled

So either rtings are wrong or the Spears and Muncil disc is wrong.
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Old 02-26-2022, 02:34 AM   #5190
KC-Technerd KC-Technerd is offline
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The same website (rtings) is also saying that the LG C9 is judder free @24 fps, naturally. Now it does stutter because of how OLEDs have instant pixel response.

https://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/lg/c9-oled

So either rtings are wrong or the Spears and Muncil disc is wrong.
rtings.com is correct. The C9 does display 24p judder free, but "Real Cinema" needs to be turned On for that to be the case. See what they said here about the settings they were using when they reviewed the C9: LG C9 OLED Calibration Settings: JUDDER SETTINGS. (Scroll to the top of that page to see where they say they used the listed settings for their review.)

What I'm seeing from the Spears and Munsil disc and what rtings.com reported match. 24p is judder free when "Real Cinema" is turned "On" (which rtings.com evaluated). 24p is not judder free when "Real Cinema" is turned "Off" (not clear whether rtings.com evaluated this).

I think if you play a scene from a 24p Blu-ray Disc with significant motion (where you've been able to tell the difference between having Real Cinema On and Off) you'll find there is no visible difference between having 24p On or Off on your Panasonic 820, when Real Cinema is Off on the C9. That's because it's either being converted to 60Hz by your Panasonic 820, or being converted to 60Hz by the C9 (judder present in both cases). I believe that only when the 820's 24p is On, and the C9s Real Cinema is On will the image be judder free. If either is Off, then identical judder will be present. That is quite obviously what is happening with my Oppo UDP-203 and my C9.

It's certainly OK if you prefer the image with the added judder of 3:2 pulldown to 60Hz. At least one member over in the AVSForums has stated a preference for it on his LG OLED, which I think was also a C9.
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Old 02-26-2022, 04:00 AM   #5191
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For Real Cinema, should note if I havenít already..

It is a locked out settings from LGís Internal Apps.

It is set to On btw when itís locked out.
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Old 02-26-2022, 12:27 PM   #5192
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For Real Cinema, should note if I havenít already..

It is a locked out settings from LGís Internal Apps.

It is set to On btw when itís locked out.
"Real Cinema" is not locked out on my C9 on the internal apps. The only things that "lock out" on internal apps are "Aspect Ratio" and "Black Level" options. Otherwise, the majority of those type of settings are unlocked.
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Old 02-26-2022, 12:38 PM   #5193
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Originally Posted by KC-Technerd View Post
rtings.com is correct. The C9 does display 24p judder free, but "Real Cinema" needs to be turned On for that to be the case. See what they said here about the settings they were using when they reviewed the C9: LG C9 OLED Calibration Settings: JUDDER SETTINGS. (Scroll to the top of that page to see where they say they used the listed settings for their review.)

What I'm seeing from the Spears and Munsil disc and what rtings.com reported match. 24p is judder free when "Real Cinema" is turned "On" (which rtings.com evaluated). 24p is not judder free when "Real Cinema" is turned "Off" (not clear whether rtings.com evaluated this).

I think if you play a scene from a 24p Blu-ray Disc with significant motion (where you've been able to tell the difference between having Real Cinema On and Off) you'll find there is no visible difference between having 24p On or Off on your Panasonic 820, when Real Cinema is Off on the C9. That's because it's either being converted to 60Hz by your Panasonic 820, or being converted to 60Hz by the C9 (judder present in both cases). I believe that only when the 820's 24p is On, and the C9s Real Cinema is On will the image be judder free. If either is Off, then identical judder will be present. That is quite obviously what is happening with my Oppo UDP-203 and my C9.

It's certainly OK if you prefer the image with the added judder of 3:2 pulldown to 60Hz. At least one member over in the AVSForums has stated a preference for it on his LG OLED, which I think was also a C9.
That's true, when "Real Cinema" is activated, judder is removed. That's what rtings says and I agree. What I'm getting at is that "Real Cinema" does not have to be activated to experience true 24 fps when it comes to film.

I have read up that no matter what display it is, 60 Hz, 120 Hz, etc., film or 24 fps will always have a small bit of judder. It's not as apparent on a 120 Hz as a 60 Hz, but it's there naturally. Some people are very sensitive to this judder, so LG and other companies have motion processing options to eliminate that judder. That's what "Real Cinema" is for. It's better than TruMotion because it doesn't add frames but it removes the judder.

The problem I have with it is that if you have a pure source of 24 fps going to the TV and you have it activated, the motion gets choppy or blurry. I remember when my wife and I first got our C9 and we watched The Gilmore Girls on Netflix with "Real Cinema" on, it screwed up the frame rate to where it was very choppy. I turned the option "Off" and it was smooth as butter.

Real Cinema has been around for a long time as well. Here is an advertisement from 2010/2011 about it. Their main focus in the video is 60 Hz TVs or 60 Hz sources. This leads me to believe this option is mainly for sources that only does 60 FPS or 60 Hz. Basically, it's a legacy setting that LG doesn't want to give up (kind of like Overscan). But the main reason to turn it "On" is to get rid of the judder that comes with 24 fps content naturally

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Old 02-26-2022, 03:40 PM   #5194
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This is the wrong thread for it but I'm this close to ordering a 77" A80J, it's such a good price at the moment.
I've been considering that exact one too, and even more tempting with that £100 discount some outlets are offering.

My main concern jumping to OLED from LED is how 24fps stutter is going to handle, as it's pretty noticeable on my current set as it is.
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Old 02-26-2022, 09:59 PM   #5195
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To add even further into my "Real Cinema/Cinema Screen" Investigations, I just popped in my Spears and Muncil HD Benchmark 1st Edition disc and watched the montage that's at the beginning of the disc. I decided look at the differences between having Real Cinema "On" and "Off" with this montage since it was shot at 24 fps and it has great panning shots.

With Real Cinema "Off", the motion of the panning shot had more of a stutter than a judder. The motion seemed to be pretty smooth.

Now with Real Cinema "On" the motion seemed to be smoother, however there was a lot of motion blurring that gave the picture a worse look than with it "Off." Again, it felt like it added more frames to the picture and make it worse. The panning shots just looked shaky compared to it being "Off."

Again, I feel as though this function should only be used for sources that can only output 60 fps/ 60 Hz to get it a 24 fps feel. True 24 fps/ 24 Hz sources should not have this "On." I makes no sense to me since the C9 and other LG OLEDs are 120 Hz. Real Cinema is just motion processing, which is a no no for purists of 24 fps!!
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Old 02-27-2022, 12:35 AM   #5196
KC-Technerd KC-Technerd is offline
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Originally Posted by PUsokrJosh305 View Post
That's true, when "Real Cinema" is activated, judder is removed. That's what rtings says and I agree. What I'm getting at is that "Real Cinema" does not have to be activated to experience true 24 fps when it comes to film.
That depends on how you define "true 24 fps." Yes, when the source is 24p, then assuming constant motion 24 different images are being displayed every second whether Real Cinema is On or Off. The actual time interval between each frame being displayed is what varies. We seem to be going around in circles about this. I've been trying to answer your question about Real Cinema, but it seems that you've come up with your own answer that you're happier with and wish to defend. I'll try to explain one more time, but then I'm going to give up unless anyone has questions about my explanation. Believe what you want to believe.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PUsokrJosh305 View Post
I have read up that no matter what display it is, 60 Hz, 120 Hz, etc., film or 24 fps will always have a small bit of judder. It's not as apparent on a 120 Hz as a 60 Hz, but it's there naturally. Some people are very sensitive to this judder, so LG and other companies have motion processing options to eliminate that judder. That's what "Real Cinema" is for. It's better than TruMotion because it doesn't add frames but it removes the judder.
Again I think you are confusing judder and stutter. Motion processing comes in two different flavors: frame interpolation, and black/dark frame insertion. Frame interpolation addresses low frame rate, and black/dark frame insertion addresses stutter and motion blur. Neither of these are intended to address judder. These are both functions included in TruMotion. The inverse 3:2 pulldown function of Real Cinema is not motion processing, at least not in the same sense. Its intent is to remove judder by restoring the original 1/24th of a second timing between sequential frames when appropriate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PUsokrJosh305 View Post
The problem I have with it is that if you have a pure source of 24 fps going to the TV and you have it activated, the motion gets choppy or blurry. I remember when my wife and I first got our C9 and we watched The Gilmore Girls on Netflix with "Real Cinema" on, it screwed up the frame rate to where it was very choppy. I turned the option "Off" and it was smooth as butter.
This sounds much like what I was describing with "Chicago Fire" and "Law & Order" in my previous post. If the source is true 30 fps progressive or 60Hz interlaced, and Real Cinema is misidentifying it as 24 fps based, Real Cinema is dropping 6 of the true frames (12 fields if interlaced) per second, and that's why the motion gets weird. This choppy motion is identical to what happens if I tell my Oppo to force 24p from a true 60Hz DVD. I've never seen that happen on something that I can positively identify as 24 fps (known 24 fps film or 24p video source). Before you tell me that IMDB lists "Chicago Fire" as being 1080p/24, IMDB like wikipedia is not always correct, and the process could have been updated between seasons. If the info is right about "Gilmore Girls" being shot on 16mm, then its almost certainly 24fps based. The only reason I can think of that it would trip up Real Cinema is if it had been converted to 60Hz, and Real Cinema was going rapidly going back and forth between correctly identifying the 24p and not. Whether originally 24p or not, no question that "Chicago Fire" was 1080/60i, because it was being broadcast on NBC. In any case, choppy or weird motion with Real Cinema On is most likely the result of failed or inconsistent identification of 24 fps in 60Hz video. If coming from a streaming service like Netflix, I'd think it could could also be buffering or something else affecting the video stream.

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Originally Posted by PUsokrJosh305 View Post
But the main reason to turn it "On" is to get rid of the judder that comes with 24 fps content naturally.
Judder of the type I'm referring to does not come with 24 fps content naturally. Judder results from 3:2 pulldown to conform 24 fps into 60Hz display.

Explanation:

When a motion picture is filmed (back when they did it on film, and with the few exceptions that were done at other frame rates), the shutter opens to expose each successive frame every 1/24th of second. When the print of that film is projected, each successive frame is shown every 1/24th of a second. Assuming both camera and projector are in good condition any variation in this is negligible and so is any resulting judder. Projected film didn't exhibit as much stutter and motion blur as our OLED displays do, because the projectors basically did black frame insertion, opening the shutter for only two brief periods for each frame (double shuttering).

24p video media (motion picture based Blu-ray Disc labeled 24p), Source Device (my Oppo UDP-203) set for 60Hz output, LG C9 receiving 60Hz and Real Cinema "Off":

AND

24p video media, Source device set for 24Hz output, LG C9 receiving 24Hz and Real Cinema "Off":

Identical visible judder consistent with frame interval alternating between 1/20th (3/60ths) and 1/30th (2/60ths) of a second (3:2 pulldown). Second frame is shown 1/20th of a second after the first, third is shown 1/30th of a second later, fourth is shown 1/20th of a second later, fifth is shown 1/30th of a second later, and so on. At 120Hz refresh, frame one is shown for 6 refreshes, frame two for 4, frame three for 6, frame four for 4, frame five for 6, and so on. This judder is to be expected when the source device is set to output the 24p disc at 60Hz, but not at 24Hz.

While the C9 is showing 24 frames per second, each successive frame is not being displayed at the same time interval. If it were, the judder described above would not be present when the source device is set to output 24Hz. (The results between 60Hz output and 24Hz output should not be the same.) This is how TVs that were not 24p capable displayed 24 frame per second movies. This is why I think LG's implementation of Real Cinema is bizarre and unexpected. The display is 120Hz capable, therefore 24Hz capable, but when being fed 24Hz while Real Cinema is turned Off, it behaves as if the display is only 60Hz capable, and it performs the unnecessary work of 3:2 pulldown to make it behave that way. This is why all the reviewers you've previously referred to said that Real Cinema needs to be turned On in order to "correctly" display 24p. This has also been discussed in AVSForum. With Real Cinema Off, the C9 behaves like an old TV before 24Hz video was a thing. I really wish it would behave like a 120Hz/24Hz capable display when Real Cinema is turned Off, but it doesn't. I think it is stupid that LG has it linked to and inseparable from the Real Cinema function of detecting and undoing 3:2 pulldown to 60Hz that has been done to 24fps source materials.

24p video media, Source device set for 24Hz output, LG C9 receiving 24Hz and Real Cinema "On":

The judder described above is no longer present, consistent with each successive frame being displayed 1/24th of a second after the previous, or every 5 refreshes at 120Hz. As I said above, I wish I didn't have to have Real Cinema's automatic inverse 3:2 pulldown turned on to make this happen.

A side note: If I'm remembering correctly, Oppo at one time had automatic detection for applying inverse 3:2 pulldown to DVDs for conversion to 24Hz output on some of their players, but abandoned it as not being reliable, resorting instead to manual only selection (as my two Oppo players have). That's a large part of why I find it surprising that LG's automatic detection in Real Cinema works as well as it does. If anyone could master that kind of thing, I would have expected it to be Oppo Digital. I expected a lot more weird or choppy motion with my C9's Real Cinema On (when watching broadcast TV or other 60Hz video) than I've ever gotten.

Last edited by KC-Technerd; 02-27-2022 at 02:13 AM.
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Old 02-27-2022, 08:19 AM   #5198
Derb Derb is offline
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Even with Real Cinema On, itís not perfect.

Iíve noticed judder on Panning shots. Not enough to warrant any BFI implementation IMO.

Iíd rather LG do some more updates regarding Dolby Vision & TPC. Itís rather annoying having to use the service remote anytime I wanna watch a show or movie.
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Old 02-27-2022, 12:23 PM   #5199
PUsokrJosh305 PUsokrJosh305 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Derb View Post
Even with Real Cinema On, itís not perfect.

Iíve noticed judder on Panning shots. Not enough to warrant any BFI implementation IMO.

Iíd rather LG do some more updates regarding Dolby Vision & TPC. Itís rather annoying having to use the service remote anytime I wanna watch a show or movie.
Thank you!! This is exactly what I have been seeing.

With Real Cinema/Cinema Screen "Off," you get some slight judder (or it could be stutter, not sure how you tell the difference) but nothing too bad unless if you are sensitive to that kind of thing.

With Real Cinema/Cinema Screen "On," the picture seems to be smeary in very fast pans, like in The Avengers when the "money shot" scene happens with all of the heroes are together. Those spnning/panning shots look aweful with Real Cinema "On." It looks much better when it is "Off."
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Old 02-27-2022, 07:51 PM   #5200
kuro_sawa kuro_sawa is offline
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Originally Posted by Derb View Post

Iíd rather LG do some more updates regarding Dolby Vision & TPC. Itís rather annoying having to use the service remote anytime I wanna watch a show or movie.
I think I posted this before but I really donít think TPC is any worse in DV or that DV makes a difference. Itís extremely content specific but I noticed it equally in HDR only & DV UHDs. As for shutting it on/off Iíve just left it off, put at least 100 hrs on it since and I donít see any problem. If something does happen you will be the 1st to know cuz Iím coming here to post an epic rant

Quote:
Originally Posted by PUsokrJosh305 View Post
Thank you!! This is exactly what I have been seeing.

With Real Cinema/Cinema Screen "Off," you get some slight judder (or it could be stutter, not sure how you tell the difference) but nothing too bad unless if you are sensitive to that kind of thing.

With Real Cinema/Cinema Screen "On," the picture seems to be smeary in very fast pans, like in The Avengers when the "money shot" scene happens with all of the heroes are together. Those spnning/panning shots look aweful with Real Cinema "On." It looks much better when it is "Off."
Real Cinema/Cinema Screen is also really content specific and in the end sort of personal preference IMO. Some discs it really does just look like AI or motion smoothing to my eyes. Also Iíve noticed when I Airplay stuff to the TV, even when I have Cinema Screen Off on the TV, either the Mac or app has it on anyway which took me way too long to figure out.
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