The Good, the Bad and the Ugly (1966) (50th Anniversary Edition)

[Retroj23]

Originally Posted by murch13

Concerning the colour.

First one must understand that when undertaking restorations from the negative (Mondo BLU and MGM 4k) that the entire film has to be re-colour corrected. You can use release prints as reference, but they are unreliable..there are photochemically derived variances from print to print and even reel to reel. They are generations removed and so have more contrast (like a photocopy of a photocopy). And the only way to be certain is to project them with a certain vintage colour-temperature bulb. The Italians originally decided (during the first restoration from negative) to colour correct to a nice neutral palette, although they reduced too much green and ended up with magenta skies on the Mondo. The first restoration also suffered from a problem inherent to the early generation scanner they used, which was rolling shutter. That is why, although people can't really put their finger on the exact reason why, the mondo is said to seem "video-like" and not film like. For evidence of the rolling shutter, study closely the scene of shorty Larson being hanged, you will see what looks like a "heat shimmer" on a few of the shots. That is the rolling shutter problem. The mondo also has an issue with the first frame of every shot jumping up and down...but let's move on.

During the second restoration in 2014, going back to the negative again they had to start over again on the colour. This time they decided to give the film a "look", perhaps influenced by modern colour correction styles, supposedly influenced by a member of the film crew. They went too far and we've ended up with the yellow/green disc. They added too much green and went away from magenta which means things like the sky are no longer blue.

Here is a comparison between a vintage 1967 international print (unrestored and to the best of our technical ability and equipment presented "as is") and the mondo/mgm 4k. In particular, pay attention to the skies...mondo's lean towards magenta, mgm 4k's lean towards green, 35mm seems to be fairly neutral.

https://vimeo.com/213304861

Yeah, I never liked the Mondo edition. The colors never seemed to gel with the tone of the film and of course it looks too digital. The 4k remaster, while looking very cinematic, is way too yellow. Sigh, here's hoping Kino can work some magic with this great movie.

The print looks great by the way.

[murch13]

One final post. This is all presented for "educational purposes". In no way is it meant to be a criticism or complaint about the upcoming Kino release. The kino release will be a day 1 buy for me. This is all meant in the spirit of sharing what has happened to this marvellous film in the past.

[MisterLime]

cage.jpg

[MisterLime]

Originally Posted by murch13

I shortened it to just the essential material now.

Wow, how long was the original.

[Poya]

Originally Posted by MisterLime

Attachment 167013

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t7hs...ature=youtu.be

[murch13]

Originally Posted by MisterLime

Attachment 167013

I totally understand that your patience has been tried with all the feedback, a lot of it harsh and unwarranted. Again, let me repeat I am in no way attacking Kino or the forthcoming release. I am only trying to explain how this film has been mishandled in the past. At this point, there's no way to fix it properly with any kind of reasonable budget and I'll buy the Kino release in good faith knowing that Kino did the best they could (within reason, within budget).

[murch13]

Originally Posted by MisterLime

Wow, how long was the original.

I apologize, I perhaps should have linked to a txt file for those that wanted to dig deeper. I simply wanted to provide the evidence for my claim. A forum was probably not the best place to post such a huge text block.

[Retroj23]

Originally Posted by MisterLime

Wow, how long was the original.

Check out the spoiler in post #641.

[MisterLime]

Originally Posted by murch13

I totally understand that your patience has been tried with all the feedback, a lot of it harsh and unwarranted. Again, let me repeat I am in no way attacking Kino or the forthcoming release. I am only trying to explain how this film has been mishandled in the past. At this point, there's no way to fix it properly with any kind of reasonable budget and I'll buy the Kino release in good faith knowing that Kino did the best they could (within reason, within budget).

The Nick Cage images was not a direct response to you, it just followed your post. It was a response to the avalanche of posts since Monday, I was hoping my Happy Easter post would temporarily put a stop to this deluge, but I guess not.

[murch13]

Originally Posted by MisterLime

The Nick Cage images was not a direct response to you, it just followed your post. It was a response to the avalanche of posts since Monday, I was hoping my Happy Easter post would temporarily put a stop to this deluge, but I guess not.

I don't expect anything else from Kino or yourself, you were forthcoming and said Kino would do the best they can and I believe you. People just love this movie and Kino was smart to get the licence and immediately plan to give us the international cut, an even smarter move. It's my favorite film obviously and I'm a professional editor...when I see that the edit has been messed with on my favorite film...well it's a recipe for obsession. But I'm one of many similar nerds out there just look at what people are doing with the Star Wars trilogy.

[eurospec19]

No, you're just one of the crazies, murch13.

[Bates_Motel]

Originally Posted by murch13

Concerning the colour.

First one must understand that when undertaking restorations from the negative (Mondo BLU and MGM 4k) that the entire film has to be re-colour corrected. You can use release prints as reference, but they are unreliable..there are photochemically derived variances from print to print and even reel to reel. They are generations removed and so have more contrast (like a photocopy of a photocopy). And the only way to be certain is to project them with a certain vintage colour-temperature bulb. The Italians originally decided (during the first restoration from negative) to colour correct to a nice neutral palette, although they reduced too much green and ended up with magenta skies on the Mondo. The first restoration also suffered from a problem inherent to the early generation scanner they used, which was rolling shutter. That is why, although people can't really put their finger on the exact reason why, the mondo is said to seem "video-like" and not film like. For evidence of the rolling shutter, study closely the scene of shorty Larson being hanged, you will see what looks like a "heat shimmer" on a few of the shots. That is the rolling shutter problem. The mondo also has an issue with the first frame of every shot jumping up and down...but let's move on.

During the second restoration in 2014, going back to the negative again they had to start over again on the colour. This time they decided to give the film a "look", perhaps influenced by modern colour correction styles, supposedly influenced by a member of the film crew. They went too far and we've ended up with the yellow/green disc. They added too much green and went away from magenta which means things like the sky are no longer blue.

Here is a comparison between a vintage 1967 international print (unrestored and to the best of our technical ability and equipment presented "as is") and the mondo/mgm 4k. In particular, pay attention to the skies...mondo's lean towards magenta, mgm 4k's lean towards green, 35mm seems to be fairly neutral.

https://vimeo.com/213304861

See, that's where you are presenting misinformation. I sampled the apparent "reddest" part of the Mondo sky and it os nowhere near the red spectrum. The Mondo does not lean toward red, it only appears that way when you put it next to the MGM, which is absurdly yellow.

Originally Posted by travisbickle

The mondo looks like a DVD in comparison to the yellow "remaster" in terms of detail.

hahahaha

Originally Posted by Retroj23

Yeah, I never liked the Mondo edition. The colors never seemed to gel with the tone of the film

That's funny since it's how the film always looked. The colors on the Mondo, if not 100% correct, are at least 95% correct, or more, so I guess you just don't like the look of the film maybe?

The best part os everyone suddenly dissing the most correct version there is probably doesn't even own the disc and hasn't seen it in motion, so that pretty much nullifies an opinion anyway.

[eurospec19]

Originally Posted by Bates_Motel

The best part os everyone suddenly dissing the most correct version there is probably doesn't even own the disc and hasn't seen it in motion, so that pretty much nullifies an opinion anyway.

Actually, the best part is you conceding that, according to you only, that the Mondo is no longer "perfect" (assuming that means 100%) and is now at least 95% correct. Having read your repeated posts over the past couple weeks I bet this is a big and uncomfortable admission for you.

You've repeatedly ignored the evidence that has been posted recently contradicting your assertions and stubbornly maintained that the Mondo is the gold standard release for this film. With regard to the image, now you have a comparison video demonstrating that the Mondo looks pretty good but it's far from the gold standard for various reasons.

Originally Posted by Bates_Motel

See, that's where you are presenting misinformation. I sampled the apparent "reddest" part of the Mondo sky and it os nowhere near the red spectrum. The Mondo does not lean toward red, it only appears that way when you put it next to the MGM, which is absurdly yellow.

You're accusing murch13 of presenting misinformation? Where's that pot calling the kettle black meme when you need it? Given his post is comparing 3 different sources, I believe murch13 is describing the colors of the sky in relative terms. He's describes the sky as leaning toward magenta not that it is magenta. Where does the 35mm fall on the spectrum in that same sample you posted?

[Retroj23]

Originally Posted by Bates_Motel

See, that's where you are presenting misinformation. I sampled the apparent "reddest" part of the Mondo sky and it os nowhere near the red spectrum. The Mondo does not lean toward red, it only appears that way when you put it next to the MGM, which is absurdly yellow.





hahahaha



That's funny since it's how the film always looked. The colors on the Mondo, if not 100% correct, are at least 95% correct, or more, so I guess you just don't like the look of the film maybe?

The best part os everyone suddenly dissing the most correct version there is probably doesn't even own the disc and hasn't seen it in motion, so that pretty much nullifies an opinion anyway.

Do you have proof of how "it has always looked that way" statement? I have seen prints and they look nothing like the Mondo caps. And spare me the "but it looks good in motion" nonsense. Without proof your argument is null and void.

[baheidstu]

Originally Posted by MisterLime

The Nick Cage images was not a direct response to you, it just followed your post. It was a response to the avalanche of posts since Monday, I was hoping my Happy Easter post would temporarily put a stop to this deluge, but I guess not.

You think this is bad, wait until you guys actually release the thing.

[Poya]

From what I can see, using Color Picker, the 4K MGM disc's skies don't have much color compared to the Mondo nor the IB print. Judging from the video paused to match Bates' screenshot, these are the estimated values for the skies on each one, from lowest to greatest:

Mondo: R= (150 to 180) G= (155 to 190) B= (175 to 215)

35mm: R= (145 to 185) G= (145 to 205) B= (170 to 230)

MGM: R= (140 to 165) G= (140 to 170) B= (135 to 150)

[JohnCarpenterFan]

Originally Posted by eurospec19

Actually, the best part is you conceding that, according to you only, that the Mondo is no longer "perfect" (assuming that means 100%) and is now at least 95% correct. Having read your repeated posts over the past couple weeks I bet this is a big and uncomfortable admission for you.

You've repeatedly ignored the evidence that has been posted recently contradicting your assertions and stubbornly maintained that the Mondo is the gold standard release for this film. With regard to the image, now you have a comparison video demonstrating that the Mondo looks pretty good but it's far from the gold standard for various reasons.



You're accusing murch13 of presenting misinformation? Where's that pot calling the kettle black meme when you need it? Given his post is comparing 3 different sources, I believe murch13 is describing the colors of the sky in relative terms. He's describes the sky as leaning toward magenta not that it is magenta. Where does the 35mm fall on the spectrum in that same sample you posted?

It's useless trying to debate him, because this is his shtick:

1. Criticize new remasters using the typical buzzwords (even if they don't apply): revisionist, teal, blanket tint.

2. State that an earlier Blu-ray (or his own custom version) is "correct" or "perfect" while dismissing actual evidence by stating he was a projectionist and personally projected the film at the time of release or recently saw a print projected.

3. Spam the thread with the same misinformation and redundant comments hoping someone takes the bait so the same arguments can take place over and over again preventing new discussions from happening.

[Pecker]

In general I believe we just need a little humility about what we know, what we don't, what's possible, what's probably and what's definite.

We also need to drop the hyperbole of 'perfect' or 'POS', or 'urine-soaked' or whatever.

The MGM disc, many, many people who've seen it thinks it looks gorgeous, and yes many who are well-informed. It is most certainly not 'unwatchable' by any stretch of the imagination.

[The Fallen Deity]

The only issues with the 4K MGM master are the colour timing and the blacks looking green.

The contrast is a bit questionable as well but I wouldn't say that it's problematic.

The rest of the transfer on the other hand is fantastic. Fine detail galore and incredibly filmic!

[murch13]

Here are images from the original continuity script in our possession. Note that everything is counted down to the nearest 1/3 second.

https://imgur.com/gallery/1M7vO