2022 Sight & Sound Poll

[An4h0ny]

I really enjoyed this take from New Yorker

--------------

Especially fun was the inevitable grumping from old white guys, most charismatically the director Paul Schrader, who declared, on his Facebook page, that, although “Jeanne Dielman” is a personal favorite of his and “a landmark film,” its shock appearance at No. 1 “does it no favors,” mutating Akerman’s achievement into “a landmark of distorted woke reappraisal.” Schrader wrote, “It feels off, as if someone had put their thumb on the scale. Which I suspect they did.”

It seems beyond doubt that the feminist (or “woke,” I guess) politics ascribed to “Jeanne Dielman” are part of why it won, and part of its monumental renown. It appeared in the same year as Laura Mulvey’s watershed essay “Visual Pleasure and Narrative Cinema,” which defined the controlling “male gaze” of the movies and permanently altered the lens through which generations of filmgoers and directors saw women onscreen. That “Jeanne Dielman” knocked the ultimate male-gaze movie by the ultimate male-gaze director—Alfred Hitchcock’s “Vertigo”—out of the top position may appear too on-the-nose to an anti-woke conspiracy theorist such as Schrader. But the film’s critical reputation is not a post-#MeToo phenomenon; it has been surging for decades. (So has Akerman’s: her 1976 film “News from Home,” which draws on letters to Akerman from her mother, also made the Sight and Sound list.) In 1976, the critic Louis Marcorelles, writing in Le Monde, deemed “Jeanne Dielman” “the first masterpiece of the feminine in the history of the cinema.” J. Hoberman called it “one of the key artworks of the twentieth century,” “a unique spectacle as well as a strong statement on women’s assigned roles and designated space.” My colleague Richard Brody hailed it as a “tour de force of cinematic modernism,” one that “puts time onscreen as it was never seen before.” The film has explicitly influenced the work of directors including Todd Haynes, Gus Van Sant, and Céline Sciamma, who has said that Akerman is “one of the most important filmmakers in the history of cinema.” Jeanne Dielman herself, as embodied by the impossibly elegant Seyrig, is as emblematic as Maya Deren in “Meshes of the Afternoon,” or Seyrig herself in “Last Year at Marienbad,” of a certain kind of slow, obscure, demanding art-house or avant-garde cinema; in recent years, Jeanne has even become meme-able. Unless there is a hive of Akerman fanatics at Sight and Sound who fixed the vote, the film’s ascension in the rankings (it was thirty-sixth in 2012) can be ascribed to a wider film culture catching up with the longtime views of hard-core cinéastes, as well as a general and welcome broadening of the categories of human experience, labor, and behavior that are deemed worthy of artistic treatment. [+]

[HillSprinter]

Originally Posted by An4h0ny

I really enjoyed this take from New Yorker

--------------

Especially fun was the inevitable grumping from old white guys, most charismatically the director Paul Schrader, who declared, on his Facebook page, that, although “Jeanne Dielman” is a personal favorite of his and “a landmark film,” its shock appearance at No. 1 “does it no favors,” mutating Akerman’s achievement into “a landmark of distorted woke reappraisal.” Schrader wrote, “It feels off, as if someone had put their thumb on the scale. Which I suspect they did.”

It seems beyond doubt that the feminist (or “woke,” I guess) politics ascribed to “Jeanne Dielman” are part of why it won, and part of its monumental renown. It appeared in the same year as Laura Mulvey’s watershed essay “Visual Pleasure and Narrative Cinema,” which defined the controlling “male gaze” of the movies and permanently altered the lens through which generations of filmgoers and directors saw women onscreen. That “Jeanne Dielman” knocked the ultimate male-gaze movie by the ultimate male-gaze director—Alfred Hitchcock’s “Vertigo”—out of the top position may appear too on-the-nose to an anti-woke conspiracy theorist such as Schrader. But the film’s critical reputation is not a post-#MeToo phenomenon; it has been surging for decades. (So has Akerman’s: her 1976 film “News from Home,” which draws on letters to Akerman from her mother, also made the Sight and Sound list.) In 1976, the critic Louis Marcorelles, writing in Le Monde, deemed “Jeanne Dielman” “the first masterpiece of the feminine in the history of the cinema.” J. Hoberman called it “one of the key artworks of the twentieth century,” “a unique spectacle as well as a strong statement on women’s assigned roles and designated space.” My colleague Richard Brody hailed it as a “tour de force of cinematic modernism,” one that “puts time onscreen as it was never seen before.” The film has explicitly influenced the work of directors including Todd Haynes, Gus Van Sant, and Céline Sciamma, who has said that Akerman is “one of the most important filmmakers in the history of cinema.” Jeanne Dielman herself, as embodied by the impossibly elegant Seyrig, is as emblematic as Maya Deren in “Meshes of the Afternoon,” or Seyrig herself in “Last Year at Marienbad,” of a certain kind of slow, obscure, demanding art-house or avant-garde cinema; in recent years, Jeanne has even become meme-able. Unless there is a hive of Akerman fanatics at Sight and Sound who fixed the vote, the film’s ascension in the rankings (it was thirty-sixth in 2012) can be ascribed to a wider film culture catching up with the longtime views of hard-core cinéastes, as well as a general and welcome broadening of the categories of human experience, labor, and behavior that are deemed worthy of artistic treatment. [+]

That’s a good article.

On the subject of Sight & Sounds poll - it’s done exactly what they wanted it to do, and have always wanted it to do since it started in 1952, which is to generate debate and discussion about films.

[zen007]

I talked about the 3 positives (Singin' in the Rain, Tokyo Story, and In the Mood for Love) of the top 10 list ... Need to mention Man with a Movie Camera (1929) too.

This is an exceptional documentary depicting everyday life in the Soviet Union almost 100 years ago!

[Borges123]

Originally Posted by stvn1974

I agree, I didn't like most of those films before reading the list and now my opinions on them are still the same.

You didn't look most of the films on the entire list?

[Borges123]

Originally Posted by mclellandj

It's a dogwhistle

For what?

[Rayjg]

Originally Posted by An4h0ny

I really enjoyed this take from New Yorker

--------------

Especially fun was the inevitable grumping from old white guys, most charismatically the director Paul Schrader, who declared, on his Facebook page, that, although “Jeanne Dielman” is a personal favorite of his and “a landmark film,” its shock appearance at No. 1 “does it no favors,” mutating Akerman’s achievement into “a landmark of distorted woke reappraisal.” Schrader wrote, “It feels off, as if someone had put their thumb on the scale. Which I suspect they did.”

It seems beyond doubt that the feminist (or “woke,” I guess) politics ascribed to “Jeanne Dielman” are part of why it won, and part of its monumental renown. It appeared in the same year as Laura Mulvey’s watershed essay “Visual Pleasure and Narrative Cinema,” which defined the controlling “male gaze” of the movies and permanently altered the lens through which generations of filmgoers and directors saw women onscreen. That “Jeanne Dielman” knocked the ultimate male-gaze movie by the ultimate male-gaze director—Alfred Hitchcock’s “Vertigo”—out of the top position may appear too on-the-nose to an anti-woke conspiracy theorist such as Schrader. But the film’s critical reputation is not a post-#MeToo phenomenon; it has been surging for decades. (So has Akerman’s: her 1976 film “News from Home,” which draws on letters to Akerman from her mother, also made the Sight and Sound list.) In 1976, the critic Louis Marcorelles, writing in Le Monde, deemed “Jeanne Dielman” “the first masterpiece of the feminine in the history of the cinema.” J. Hoberman called it “one of the key artworks of the twentieth century,” “a unique spectacle as well as a strong statement on women’s assigned roles and designated space.” My colleague Richard Brody hailed it as a “tour de force of cinematic modernism,” one that “puts time onscreen as it was never seen before.” The film has explicitly influenced the work of directors including Todd Haynes, Gus Van Sant, and Céline Sciamma, who has said that Akerman is “one of the most important filmmakers in the history of cinema.” Jeanne Dielman herself, as embodied by the impossibly elegant Seyrig, is as emblematic as Maya Deren in “Meshes of the Afternoon,” or Seyrig herself in “Last Year at Marienbad,” of a certain kind of slow, obscure, demanding art-house or avant-garde cinema; in recent years, Jeanne has even become meme-able. Unless there is a hive of Akerman fanatics at Sight and Sound who fixed the vote, the film’s ascension in the rankings (it was thirty-sixth in 2012) can be ascribed to a wider film culture catching up with the longtime views of hard-core cinéastes, as well as a general and welcome broadening of the categories of human experience, labor, and behavior that are deemed worthy of artistic treatment. [+]

Old white guys? They only mention Schrader.

[useless watcher]

Yeah I'm gonna need some citations before I just accept at face value that old white guys with misgivings about Jeanne Dielman landing at the top of the Sight and Sound list are not a phenomenon entirely limited to Paul Schrader. Like where would one even encounter these mythical "reactionary men who are white and also old"

[scarletlion]

The Directors list is far better than the overall list.

'Get Out' being on there is a farce. It is not a better film than Raging Bull, Three Colors Blue, Ran, Rear Window, Paths of Glory, Come and See etc etc etc

Having said that it's great to see films like 'Close Up' and 'Meshes of the Afternoon' so high up the list. I think critics and directors have their favourites and won't budge on them. Personally I don't see how Bergman's 'Fanny and Alexander' is one of his best. There are at least 4 other of his films that are better. Similarly Antonioni's 'La Notte' is always on these lists but 'The Passenger' is a way better film in my humble and irrelevant opinion.

[Abdrewes]

Originally Posted by An4h0ny

"Especially fun was the inevitable grumping from old white guys, most charismatically the director Paul Schrader..."

Awful. What purpose does it serve to point Paul Shrader out as a grumpy "old white guy"? What, to single him out as a bigot? Out of touch?

[scarletlion]

Originally Posted by Abdrewes

Awful. What purpose does it serve to point Paul Shrader out as a grumpy "old white guy"? What, to single him out as a bigot? Out of touch?

Because he's been an outspoken ass about the list. It's a huge red flag when anybody who uses the word 'woke' in a negative context.

[Abdrewes]

Originally Posted by scarletlion

Because he's been an outspoken ass about the list. It's a huge red flag when anybody who uses the word 'woke' in a negative context.

Youre missing the point. What purpose does it have to point out his immutable characteristics? Beginning an article with an ad hominem is not the best way to get people to process the content of your writing in good faith.

[scarletlion]

Originally Posted by Abdrewes

Youre missing the point. What purpose does it have to point out his immutable characteristics? Beginning an article with an ad hominem is not the best way to get people to process the content of your writing in good faith.

It's justified in this instance. Because the whole point of the article is based around Schrader's outdated unnecessarily angry views which he aired on social media the day the poll came out. As good a screenwriter as he is, he dropped a bollock on this one.

The only issue I have is that the author of the article says "old white guys". Plural. Like there are loads of screenwriters and directors with the same publicised view as Schrader's, when there aren't as far as I know.

So yes it may just be 'one guy's view', but that guy is an icon of screenwriting and it's disappointing to read what he wrote.

[Abdrewes]

Originally Posted by scarletlion

It's justified in this instance. Because the whole point of the article is based around Schrader's outdated unnecessarily angry views which he aired on social media the day the poll came out. As good a screenwriter as he is, he dropped a bollock on this one.

We can agree to disagree. I think it's wrong to sling the term "old white guys" as a pejorative.

[An4h0ny]

I think the article writer was just being snarky... the same way Schrader was in his statement.

It's definitely not just old white guys who have commented or criticized this list.

But I take the overall point.

Agree with scarletlion though, generalizing and brushing with broad strokes isn't helpful on either side.

I think this entire thing is fascinating.

It's nice to have a discussion like "What makes art important or meaningful?"

[scarletlion]

I mean to an extent, Schrader's comments aren't exactly incorrect. By coincidence we just happen to have a few films directed by women that were nowhere near the top 10 last decade. (Dielman, meshes, daisies) Could that be because of 'MeToo, because of the rise of feminism, and the clamouring to include women in lists and the fear of being called out on it or cancelled? Does that do those films a disservice? Maybe.

What is great is that loads of people will be watching these films now. Even if they just watch 1 or 2. That's great. I just hate it when anybody uses woke or wokeness to justify their argument. It screams of out of touch.

[zen007]

11-20

Sunrise
Godfather
Rules of the Game
Cleo from 5 to 7
The Searchers
Meshes of the Afternoon
Close Up
Persona
Apocalypse Now
Seven Samurai

Meshes of the Afternoon is less than 15 minutes long, therefore, a question mark. There is La Jetee (1962) which is less than 30 mins but what is unique about it is that it tells the story through pictures, so understandable that it is relatively short ... Close Up, while a good documentary-like film about someone pretending to be a film director in Iran, not sure if it is a top 20 film

[Rayjg]

I’m not the biggest Schrader fan but you think that author would show a little more respect for someone who directed Cat People, Mishima, American Gigolo, First Reformed and wrote Taxi Driver.

[zen007]

Transcendental Style in Film | Paul Schrader | TIFF 2017 - YouTube

[moreorless]

Originally Posted by scarletlion

I mean to an extent, Schrader's comments aren't exactly incorrect. By coincidence we just happen to have a few films directed by women that were nowhere near the top 10 last decade. (Dielman, meshes, daisies) Could that be because of 'MeToo, because of the rise of feminism, and the clamouring to include women in lists and the fear of being called out on it or cancelled? Does that do those films a disservice? Maybe.

What is great is that loads of people will be watching these films now. Even if they just watch 1 or 2. That's great. I just hate it when anybody uses woke or wokeness to justify their argument. It screams of out of touch.

I'd agree using "woke" and "cancel culture" are very poor choices of words that I think most people would associated with bigoted conservatives which I'v never really gotten the impression he is. I think he's have been better off using terms like "tokenism" and "cultural war" as I get the impression his reaction is more from the left than it is from the right.

I can see that opinion personally, I mean I can't be the only person who saw this list and my first thought was....



...knowing that the list was going to become another cultural war football, angery men with condescending tones of voice would be making endless Youtube videos about it.

I think its a legit argument that the list becoming politicized in that fashion detracts from its credibility and perhaps even from its ability to make genuinely substantive political points. Instead you end up with something with will feed the cultural war machine for a few weeks/months and then be forgotten.

You could I think question I spose what was behind that, whether it was actually S&S's intension and instead perhaps just a reflection of how film criticism has developed over the last decade. I do think theres an argument its become more tokenistic just as I think the media and politics as a whole have.

Ultimately I think there is an argue that by giving out tokenistic awards in art really what you are doing is helping to hide inequality. Its a hell of a lot easier to take the view that its just a case of female/black cinema being unvalued by critics, there might be some truth to that I spose but I think really a much larger issue is that the film industry is sexist and racist when it comes to who gets the chance to direct and thats something I think the media is much less keen on confronting because it entails much more significant change.

[zen007]

One of the best ways to watch Jeanne Dielman is at 2x speed, which works for the most part!